Ninebot One Z : Z6-Z8-Z10

[Marty Backe]

5 minutes ago, WARPed1701D said:

I guess we will all be waiting for the BrokeBacke mountain test before we order. 

My only concern about this new wheel is that tire. It kind of reminds me of the Mten3 tire. It has tread, but there seems to be too much surface area with no thread.

So I fear that it may not have very good traction when climbing steep gravel/loose-dirt hills.

[Lukasz]

Great news!  Thank You Jason.  We hope that some initial qty of Z10 with handle will also reach Europe..

I keep fingers crossed that it will be finally well designed and reliable wheel. 

[outcast00096]

21 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

My only concern about this new wheel is that tire. It kind of reminds me of the Mten3 tire. It has tread, but there seems to be too much surface area with no thread.

So I fear that it may not have very good traction when climbing steep gravel/loose-dirt hills.

If the OneWheel is any indication then it shouldn't have a problem. The OneWheel tire is much wider and has way less tread. I've been looking for reports of it having trouble on loose ground or gravel. I cannot find any other than guys getting rocks in their shoes because they don't ride with a fender (I just bought mine last week). Below is the stock vega tire. It's the one I'm currently rocking because upgrading to the Buress or Hoosier tire voids the warranty. 

Edited January 26, 2018 by outcast00096

[Marty Backe]

1 minute ago, outcast00096 said:

If the OneWheel is any indication then it shouldn't have a problem. The OneWheel tire is much wider and has way less tread. I've been looking for reports of it having trouble on loose ground or gravel. I cannot find any other than guys getting rocks in their shoes because they don't ride with a fender (I just bought mine last week). 

I really don't think we are talking about the same kind of hills. Look at the hills that I ride in my wheel stress tests. It would be impossible for the OneWheel to climb these because the board would hit the hill that you are trying to climb.

[outcast00096]

I think you'd be surprised. I've rode with many Onewheelers and been astonished with the hills they climbed. I've got video. I wasn't pushing it but they could keep up with my 18s if I wasn't trying to blow them out of the water.

[meepmeepmayer]

Nice update!

1 hour ago, Jason McNeil said:

Similar to the V5F, there's a torque ripple effect at low speed, you can feel the small pulses of power.

What's a torque ripple effect? Does it feel "uneven" or "loose" at slow speeds?

1 hour ago, Jason McNeil said:

For the present, Ninebot plan to fit the Z with the same old pedals as the E+. I'm going to try to lobby for longer pedals, if not successful, we may be getting some Custom ones C&Cd.the Rider to Machine interface.  

 Do they sell so much in Asia (small feet) and the West is only an afterthought, or why do they not do the obvious and go for bigger pedals?

1 hour ago, Jason McNeil said:

Control Board

Wow, this looks fantastic. Great components, there's even officially official cable organization, very clean! Sounds like a dream! Did you see the motor wires gauge? Does the heat sink cool the motor wires?

1 hour ago, Jason McNeil said:

Are there any other hardware differences between Z6/8/10 besides the battery pack size?
No, it has the same board, shell & motor. Firmware settings are tweak between the variants to cap max speed depending on the battery type. Not certain if the Z6 can be upgraded to a Z10 through the installation of the larger pack.

I was under the impressions the models had different tire sizes? So they're all 18 inchers? The Z6 looked so small in the videos.

1 hour ago, Jason McNeil said:

What will the pricing be in North America? 
Based on the expected order volumes, we're going to be placing a fairly substantial initial order, so that the total price for the Z10, including shipping, will be at around the $1550 level.

Now that is a great price! Looking forward to 2500+ € prices here...

1 hour ago, Jason McNeil said:

51.8V (nominal) battery pack composed of 84x LG MH1 cells, 3.2Ah for a combined capacity of 995Wh. The voltage was kept lower in order to meet the potential for UL certification.

Bleh. Who needs a <1000Wh battery on such a power wheel. Double that would be a dream! I don't care about voltage if the torque is there.

[Marty Backe]

29 minutes ago, outcast00096 said:

I think you'd be surprised. I've rode with many Onewheelers and been astonished with the hills they climbed. I've got video. I wasn't pushing it but they could keep up with my 18s if I wasn't trying to blow them out of the water.

It's impossible. Bet my paycheck. I ride hills where the front of my pedals are almost touching ground because of the steepness. Given the skateboard like design of the OneWheel they just aren't capable of climbing very steep hills.

Watch this video segment (not the thumbnail - I've posted the video at the time where I'm climbing) and note the relationship of the pedals to the hill. A OneWheel can do this somehow? I'd truly like to see your video.

 

[outcast00096]

Thanks for posting that there. I was looking for it to compare. I'm at work so I'm perusing other people's onewheel videos. 

 

She climbs a crazy incline at 1:22

20 seconds in climbs pump track for tricks twice 

 

[Stan Onymous]

12 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Watch this video segment (not the thumbnail - I've posted the video at the time where I'm climbing) and note the relationship of the pedals to the hill. A OneWheel can

Then watch this straight from the One Wheel company itself. Hey @Marty Backe I think your confirmation bias is showing. A one wheeler may ask how you could go up a hill without hitting your knees on the hill with that same logic.

 

[Marty Backe]

4 minutes ago, outcast00096 said:

Thanks for posting that there. I was looking for it to compare. I'm at work so I'm perusing other people's onewheel videos. 

 

She climbs a crazy incline at 1:22

20 seconds in climbs pump track for tricks twice 

 

I've seen these videos (and just watched again - thanks). They are cool. My sense, from watching these, is the steep hills can be climbed for a short duration (the wheel is leaning back towards the top), but I wonder if they can climb a steep hill like at 1:22 for a sustained time (like a few hundred feet)? I don't know. Interesting.

[outcast00096]

Yeah, I think the same - I'm not sure about the overheating. The footage I have is from this ride. We climbed a massive hill. It goes on for about .25 to .50 a mile. I'll have to see if I can get official stats but that's when I was like, "oh (*(#*#$ look at them go." I was hanging back with @Michael Lutge because he was riding 14b  (I originally put 14d, that was wrong, I think the 14d would have handled it just fine) and it wasn't climbing well and beeping all the time.  Hill at 26 seconds at the end of the video. I was wearing a chest cam and I probably have about 2 hours of footage from the ride.

 

Edited January 26, 2018 by outcast00096

[Marty Backe]

5 minutes ago, Stan Onymous said:

Then watch this straight from the One Wheel company itself. Hey @Marty Backe I think your confirmation bias is showing. A one wheeler may ask how you could go up a hill without hitting your knees on the hill with that same logic.

 

Sorry, you're wrong. I just watched this video again. You will notice that the only steepish hills shown are with the OneWheel going down, dragging the back of the board on the ground. I saw nothing in this video that would show it capable of climbing one of my hills for a sustained 300-feet.

[mezzanine]

How cool is it that the Ninebot folks allowed Jason to take pics of the internals?  Great of them to allow it and smart of Jason to ask.  

I'm a little skeptical about the anticipated price of $1500 for the Z10, but I'm encouraged if that that's what they're targeting.  That said, I don't really understand the logic of the tiers of their Z lineup and the way the prices will be set.  

The release timetable is later than I expected.  I was expecting we could see a March release.  

 

 

[Stan Onymous]

14 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Sorry, you're wrong. I just watched this video again. You will notice that the only steepish hills shown are with the OneWheel going down, dragging the back of the board

The first part of the ride they are going up a very steep hill, that they show you they are on top of later. Because they edited it for quick edits, you will just have to trust them. Btw its still showing. Lol

[Adel]

There should be just one Z model, the Z10. The battery spec on that is the minimum acceptable.  Having Z6/Z8 versions just causes inventory problems for distributors to try and forecast which will be in more demand ( hint: most people will want the Z10)

[Marty Backe]

4 minutes ago, Stan Onymous said:

The first part of the ride they are going up a very steep hill, that they show you they are on top of later. Because they edited it for quick edits, you will just have to trust them. Btw its still showing. Lol

Wow, we must be watching totally different videos  I just watched it again. Nothing. Look at the shots where they are going down the steep trails, dragging the board on the ground. Now please direct me to the time in the video where they are going up these hills. Maybe it's in a different video than what you posted.

[houseofjob]

5 hours ago, mezzanine said:

That said, I don't really understand the logic of the tiers of their Z lineup and the way the prices will be set.  

5 hours ago, Adel said:

There should be just one Z model, the Z10. The battery spec on that is the minimum acceptable.  Having Z6/Z8 versions just causes inventory problems for distributors to try and forecast which will be in more demand ( hint: most people will want the Z10)

They're trying to capture buyers at several price points (particularly the newer variety), especially having only one performance wheel on the market for Segway/Ninebot.

Less knowledgeable buyers want to get into the Z at a more affordable price point, and this allows them to, especially when they can alternatively compare and settle for cheaper priced wheels, or used wheels. And these less knowledgeable buyers are a key consumer demographic necessary for greater EUC adoption (read:growth, profit); us diehards will buy the highest battery version regardless.

FWIW The first HK announcement had the models 2,000-3,000 RMB apart (so $300-400 USD or 200-300 GBP).

Right now IMHO the $1,000 USD price point is the golden median for EUCs (at least in the US). The closer you can get your wheel to cost near there, the better chance to move mass number of units (better if you can get it to 3 digits). And newer EUC riders coming off their-too slow, 1st learner wheels are probably not looking for wheels approaching upwards of near $2K USD.

 

It really probably doesn't cost Segway/Ninebot much at all either, most likely just fitting smaller packs, where the software will sense and adjust performance on power up.

You see this happening with a lot of new EUC models these days (Mten3 in 3 different battery configs; most other popular EUC models with 2 battery configs).

Edited January 27, 2018 by houseofjob

[WARPed1701D]

Another discrepancy between Jason's observations and the CES brochure is the hall sensors. The brochure says dual hall sensors which was assumed to mean redundant sensors while Jason reports a standard 3 sensor, single cable design. I don't know much about hall sensors. Can anyone with EE knowledge see how the two seemingly opposing specs could mean the same thing? Maybe redundancy was planned, but canned due to technological challenges hence the different information. 

[meepmeepmayer]

I'd guess it was canned. And tbh, it's not like EUCs were failing (cutting out) left and right because of hall sensor or hall sensor wire failures.

Electronics that can deal with high currents are the real deal, and looks like the One Z will do this impressively well.

Edited January 26, 2018 by meepmeepmayer

[who_the]

1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

I wonder if they can climb a steep hill like at 1:22 for a sustained time (like a few hundred feet)? I don't know. Interesting.

We're climbing Twin Peaks here in San Francisco for our "Unity" ride this Saturday with e-skaters and Onewheelers. We will definitely report our findings!

[Marty Backe]

13 minutes ago, who_the said:

We're climbing Twin Peaks here in San Francisco for our "Unity" ride this Saturday with e-skaters and Onewheelers. We will definitely report our findings!

Just keep in mind that I'm talking about hills that our wheels can literally barely make it up. I'm not against OneWheeler's, just dubious that they can handle the toughest long hills like we can.

Let us know.

[outcast00096]

24 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Just keep in mind that I'm talking about hills that our wheels can literally barely make it up. I'm not against OneWheeler's, just dubious that they can handle the toughest long hills like we can.

Let us know.

I got curious and asked Google what the elevation was for the ride we did with OneWheelers. Here's the data. We went up 417 feet.

[dmethvin]

3 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

What's a torque ripple effect? Does it feel "uneven" or "loose" at slow speeds?

I have felt this with my KS14C. It's more like a pulsation at some speeds, a slight rocking back and forth. Kind of hard to describe. I only detect it when I'm going on nice flat smooth roads. It may be happening at other times and I just don't feel it over the other "noise".  If there are ride softness settings I would expect it to be worse on firm settings than soft ones.

[dmethvin]

2 minutes ago, outcast00096 said:

I got curious and asked Google what the elevation was for the ride we did with OneWheelers. Here's the data. We went up 417 feet.

I think the key is the actual terrain at specific points, not the overall climb. Like Marty, I don't see anywhere in those videos where they try to climb those same trails where they have the tail of the board dragging the ground on the way down. 

[US69]

4 hours ago, Jason McNeil said:

51.8V (nominal) battery pack composed of 84x LG MH1 cells, 3.2Ah for a combined capacity of 995Wh. The voltage was kept lower in order to meet the potential for UL certification. As a result, there was a great deal of Engineering effort to yield high power through

WOW....

I dont want to be negative...but this low numbers of serial cells, is disturbing for me.

51,8V nominal means 58,8 Volt max.....means 14 cells on a 6 parallel block, on the BEST ninebot version is able to deliver?

58,8V x 10 Amp = 580Watts x 6 = 3480Watt

Compare that to a GW V3s with 84Volt x 10amp x 6 = 5040Watt.....

This means that to achieve for example 2000Watt...the Z10 has to run at a much, much higher battery stressing amp rate than for example a V3s+.

4 hours ago, houseofjob said:

My KS18S rides surprisingly well and fast on just 67.7V, so I imagine they've worked something out here (less chance for melty-wire-short-circuit, no? >> might be wrong here)

Yes, that should be wrong.....Its not just the Volts that going for a „melty-wires“...it are the amps. And when the voltage is lower, you have to put through higher amps, to achieve the same Watts/Power.

So as lower the voltage is...more amps are needed....thats why 84Volt wheels have incredibly more power available. The 18S is indeed doing extremly well for beeing a 67volt wheel.....[while KS needed several iterations of Ks18 to get it to this point]

 

And .....that are the comparing numbers of the Z10!!!......Z6/8 are even worse with even less parallel systems of 51,8 volt.

Means as it looks now 5x51,8v for the Z8

and only 3x51,8v for the Z6

4 hours ago, WARPed1701D said:

Does anyone have any concerns about the lower voltage? 

Yip, i do....at least for Z6 and Z8......the trend for all EUC goes into the other direction-84 volt-higher voltage instead of lower.....

But dont get me wrong.....i higly respect Jasons opinion and reports....but (FOR ME) this numbers are pointing to what i heard from my asian friends: Overhyped, but totally underpowered :-)

I guess we have to throw Marty on one of the Ninebots, and hear what he says :-)