KingSong S19 1800wh: 100V, 18" tire, suspension, 71lbs

[Robse]

1 hour ago, Taras said:

This video will open in 7 hours

automatically generated eng subtitles was included.

why?

[Taras]

7 hours ago, Robse said:

why?

because I was going to sleep 

[Mango]

Good info.

The S19 is likely going to be my next wheel, if KS changes a few things...

[Robse]

46 minutes ago, Mango said:

Good info.

The S19 is likely going to be my next wheel, if KS changes a few things...

few things = everything ?

[jimjam.nyc]

I feel like this wheel is getting a lot of flack. It's clearly not meant for top performance. It is really an update to the s18, probably meant to capture the v11/v12 market.

There are a few things that are a miss with it, but I bet more people are interested in it than we think.

 

[techyiam]

6 hours ago, jimjam.nyc said:

I feel like this wheel is getting a lot of flack. It's clearly not meant for top performance. It is really an update to the s18, probably meant to capture the v11/v12 market.

There are a few things that are a miss with it, but I bet more people are interested in it than we think.

Your gut feeling may turned out to be true because I think the S19 could be a nice riding wheel, since the S22/Pro rides very well, and the S19 is a refined version.

If Kingsong could have priced it better, they may have a better chance on making it a success.

I see its natural competition include wheels such as:

(1) V11

(2) V12

(3) T4

But because of its price, it may have to compete with:

(4) Patton

(5) Extreme

(6) Commander Mini

(7) Adventure

(8) S22

(9) Master

Edited August 7, 2023 by techyiam

[mrelwood]

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

I see its natural competition include wheels like:

(1) V11

It's hard to look past the 5kg weight increase though. But I do recognize that you get a lot more motor and a bit more battery for that.

9 hours ago, Mango said:

Good info.

The S19 is likely going to be my next wheel, if KS changes a few things...

What a magnificent review and reviewer! Very unbiased and informative. Thought he didn't touch the ride feel, ride mode settings, or motor response. And too much ride video that we've all seen to the point of exhaustion already, but that might just be me.

[techyiam]

3 hours ago, mrelwood said:

It's hard to look past the 5kg weight increase though. But I do recognize that you get a lot more motor and a bit more battery for that.

Over on this side of the pond, that ~5 kg may or may not be that critical since lifting may not be a consideration. The V11 has the front of the tire exposed so it can be rolled up and down stairs too.

Moreover, I suspect for many riders, the V11 and S19 would be their second wheel. The person who lent his V11 to me learn to ride on a smaller wheel first. However, there always will be those who would learn on these wheels too. 

Getting off my Abrams or my V12, I could ride the Paton, the S22 or the Commander Mini comfortably right away. I could not do the same on the V11. But the V11 rides nice and smooth, and felt refined.

[Punxatawneyjoe]

4 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Very unbiased and informative.

I like where he said" changing the tire is not a big deal"....

[Robse]

2 hours ago, Punxatawneyjoe said:

I like where he said" changing the tire is not a big deal"....

And i like:

22:14

1776 battery, so it's a good size battery....

[Drunkard]

13 hours ago, Punxatawneyjoe said:

I like where he said" changing the tire is not a big deal"....

but is it a big deal?  From what i see: 

Open the sides under the pads. (4 screws per side.)

unplug a few connectors.

undo the 4 screws hooding the top controller.

Lift it up a bit and undo the 4 screws holding power cable connector cover.

That's it? you should be able to just slide the motor down like in S22 after you disconnected the motor cable.    

Don't see why you would need to try to open the orange plastics unless there are issues with LED you need to fix, but that is outside tire change. 

 

10 hours ago, Robse said:

And i like:

22:14

1776 battery, so it's a good size battery....

is it not ?  feel like we are clowning on a good wheel just because it's fun now.. 

[Robse]

38 minutes ago, Drunkard said:

is it not ?  feel like we are clowning on a good wheel just because it's fun now.. 

KS has gotten out of sync with what is going on in the market.
3 years ago 1776 WH was "good" and "a lot" - and back then the
motor's was 2000 - 3000 watts. Now a wheel is being launched
that on the performance side, apart from maybe 8-10 kmph more top
speed and suspension, can't even beat a 4 year old KS 16X.
And it's not because I myself own a 16X - it's just a fact.
Same stupid story as 18S -  a really nice wheel except for a
ridiculous battery capacity that not at all lives up to what a skilled
rider would be able to get out of such a wheel.  All to easy to
overpower due to lack of battery capacity.

To compare:

16X: Motor 2200W , Batt: 1554
S19: Motor 3500W , Batt: 1776

So motor power is up by 59% but battery is only op with 14%
Basically, it's the 18S in a new colored suit.
They claim a range of 150 km.  This is BS.  That wheel will
never go 150 km on a full charged battery.  I guess 80 km.
Again, this is not any better than the old 16X

If they have spend so much work developing a brand new wheel
the least one could expect is that it would match the trend of the times.
If the high price is to be defended, then a descent capacity of +2400Wh
would be appropriate.

I don't think it's funny that a brand new wheel is offered with such a
low capacity. If I were to invest in a new toy (very expensive even)
then the least I would expect is that it would be better and more modern
than my old one. And it isn't. But it's fancy to look at.

[Punxatawneyjoe]

2 hours ago, Drunkard said:

From what i see:

I think you should look at the tear down video again, You missed a few steps, like all of the screws under the side plastics as well as the speaker plastics and the suspension assembly needs to be detached from the controller base. Don't forget removing the boards on each side because there is a plug underneath each of them that needs to be unplugged. Ohh and you have to peal off the stuck on side covers in order to remove both plastic pieces to gain access to the top cover screws. Then when that stuff is all removed, you can slide the wheel assembly out and remove the 6 screws on each side to remove the slider assembly and at that point you can change the tire.

[Drunkard]

2 hours ago, Robse said:

KS has gotten out of sync with what is going on in the market.

Well I would like to disagree with you.

First as we know the rated motor power does not mean that much. We can't really compare to the 2200W on the 16x and draw any conclusions on pure numbers. I tend to ignore the motor power marketing fluff.. 

1776 is a fairly decent size battery for a city wheel. 60 KM range for a 100KG guy like Denis Hagov riding decent speeds is nothing to sneeze at. Smaller weight riders that don't go racing with this can easily get 75km I would guess. 

Sure you can compare it to 3000+WH wheels that get over 100KM and say, we made these 3-4 years ago. yes, but those wheels are big, heavy, some with no suspension etc. It's a different machines. EUC's are not cars. Bigger not always equal better. And not all new wheels needs to be a step up in range and speed to the last one. This is a terrible mindset. Wheels are different in size. Small, medium and large and I think they should keep releasing NEW wheels to all categories. This is medium category city wheels with good battery for it's size. 

Edited August 8, 2023 by Drunkard

[Robse]

4 minutes ago, Drunkard said:

Well I would like to disagree with you.

First as we know the rated motor power does not mean that much. We can't really compare to the 2200W on the 16x and draw any conclusions on pure numbers. I tent to ignore the motor power marketing fluff.. 

1776 is a fairly decent size battery for a city wheel. 60 KM range for a 100KG guy like Denis Hagov riding decent speeds is nothing to sneeze at. Smaller weight riders that don't go racing with this can easily get 75km I would guess. 

Sure you can compare it to 3000+WH wheels that get over 100KM and say, we made these 3-4 years ago. yes, but those wheels are big, heavy, some with no suspension etc. It's a different machines. EUC's are not cars. Bigger not always equal better. And not all new wheels needs to be a step up in range and speed to the last one. This is a terrible mindset. Wheels are different in size. Small, medium and large and I think they should keep releasing NEW wheels to all categories. This is medium category city wheels with good battery for it's size. 

Note: When I talk about range, it is not range in the sense that you ride the battery down to 20%. For me, a useful and above all safe range is from 100% down to 40%.         I am well aware that the stated wattage of the motor cannot always be used, but for those who choose to utilize the potential of a larger and more powerful motor, it will also very quickly become apparent that much more e-juice is needed from the battery.  Despite the larger battery, my RS does not have a better range than my 16X - unless I'm slogging sitting at 20 kmph ,  therefore good battery capacity means a lot to me.

[Drunkard]

25 minutes ago, Punxatawneyjoe said:

I think you should look at the tear down video again, You missed a few steps, like all of the screws under the side plastics as well as the speaker plastics and the suspension assembly needs to be detached from the controller base

I'm trying to see it, but I believe they are disassembling everything just for the sake of disassembling it.. Guess I'll have to wait for proper tire change video done by 2Cell1Pack or someone. 

Edited August 8, 2023 by Drunkard

[Drunkard]

9 minutes ago, Robse said:

Note: When I talk about range, it is not range in the sense that you ride the battery down to 20%. For me, a useful and above all safe range is from 100% down to 40%.         I am well aware that the stated wattage of the motor cannot always be used, but for those who choose to utilize the potential of a larger and more powerful motor, it will also very quickly become apparent that much more e-juice is needed from the battery.  Despite the larger battery, my RS does not have a better range than my 16X - unless I'm slogging sitting at 20 kmph ,  therefore good battery capacity means a lot to me.

I agree that it's probably not a full 60 KM of balls to the wall riding   Same battery on my T4 gives me plenty of fun in the woods but than if i'm around half bars I usually not trying to push hard on the way home.. But I believe the S19 is for more chill riders that will not ride the beeps all the time or go crazy hill climbing. As it's a bit to plastic and does not inspire confidence to abuse it off-road. For chiller riders I think it's good size battery. I'm happy wheels are getting released for mid segment. 

[yoos]

I see a lot of people here assess the value and positioning of the S19 from a professional/enthusiast stand point. I understand it's really hard to let go of your expertise and knowledge. I even see people use the word "invest" with respect to EUCs . I am certain there is a large market for the S19. If it is not plagued by some problems (which it should not, owing to KS having time to learn with S18,20,22...), it has even a use case for some experienced and knowledgeable riders, like those who make up the active roster of this forum.

But more importantly, the EUC market is mature enough to have a meaningful share of successful products that are paradoxically unacceptable for high-end and educated riders. Look at the success of Nespresso machines. They offer mediocre, uncontrollable espresso results, they are expensive and of questionable sustainability in the long run. Yet, they work well, are stupidly easy to use, offer inexpensive entry, they are everywhere! They are a household name, while being neither cheap, nor even slightly relevant for a coffee enthusiast or professional. Other examples include things like "beats by Dr.Dre", "Ray-Bans" and other well-rounded, well-designed, well-marketed products that are neither good value, nor high-end for what they actually do (apart from the questionable service of social signalling and conformity).

I am certain that the S19 is a much better offer than a Nespresso machine! But the success of Nespresso reveals that it's not all about direct spec value or performance on par with the latest flagships (by the way, the S19 never intended to be a flagship!). 

Another thing is pricing. If I was offered a 200 horsepower car for, say 20k$ and a 300 horsepower car for 22k$ it's likely I would still pick the first option: I never make full use of 200 horsepower anyway. Do you always go for a large drink even if you aren't particularly thirsty? Note how small the markups typically are to shift to a larger drink to nudge you into spending more. For most (maybe not most on the forum, but definitely most of the overall ridership) 1800wh covers most day-to-day use. Why pay more and have more weight, even if it gives more brag-worthy specs (and a slight bit extra safety, to be fair)? I do acknowledge the spreadedness of car-centric America and high speeds those suburbs command. But most of the world offers little opportunity for monster EUCs (there are people who "make it work" by overtaking cars and riding dangerously), but that's by far not the general use case (it's also riskier to position your product as a rebellious thing -- eucs are expensive and legally underprotected). Expecting all new wheels to be geared towards the heaviest use is strange. Computers and phones have taught us that every new generation should surpass the next in raw performance, but that's not the case in general.

[Unventor]

On 8/7/2023 at 11:09 PM, Robse said:

And i like:

22:14

1776 battery, so it's a good size battery....

That depends. 

If you don't ride at top speed or aggressive and that you ride is on average of most riders do then it will fit many riders. 

I rarely ride my V11 below 50%. It happens but not often. Also I tend to ride around 35-40kmh as my top speed. 

This has to do with bicycle lanes and their quality and trafic. 

So for some that better side will make less heavy compared to a bigger battery and less expensive too. 

[Unventor]

On 8/9/2023 at 2:20 PM, yoos said:

I see a lot of people here assess the value and positioning of the S19 from a professional/enthusiast stand point. I understand it's really hard to let go of your expertise and knowledge. I even see people use the word "invest" with respect to EUCs . I am certain there is a large market for the S19. If it is not plagued by some problems (which it should not, owing to KS having time to learn with S18,20,22...), it has even a use case for some experienced and knowledgeable riders, like those who make up the active roster of this forum.

But more importantly, the EUC market is mature enough to have a meaningful share of successful products that are paradoxically unacceptable for high-end and educated riders. Look at the success of Nespresso machines. They offer mediocre, uncontrollable espresso results, they are expensive and of questionable sustainability in the long run. Yet, they work well, are stupidly easy to use, offer inexpensive entry, they are everywhere! They are a household name, while being neither cheap, nor even slightly relevant for a coffee enthusiast or professional. Other examples include things like "beats by Dr.Dre", "Ray-Bans" and other well-rounded, well-designed, well-marketed products that are neither good value, nor high-end for what they actually do (apart from the questionable service of social signalling and conformity).

I am certain that the S19 is a much better offer than a Nespresso machine! But the success of Nespresso reveals that it's not all about direct spec value or performance on par with the latest flagships (by the way, the S19 never intended to be a flagship!). 

Another thing is pricing. If I was offered a 200 horsepower car for, say 20k$ and a 300 horsepower car for 22k$ it's likely I would still pick the first option: I never make full use of 200 horsepower anyway. Do you always go for a large drink even if you aren't particularly thirsty? Note how small the markups typically are to shift to a larger drink to nudge you into spending more. For most (maybe not most on the forum, but definitely most of the overall ridership) 1800wh covers most day-to-day use. Why pay more and have more weight, even if it gives more brag-worthy specs (and a slight bit extra safety, to be fair)? I do acknowledge the spreadedness of car-centric America and high speeds those suburbs command. But most of the world offers little opportunity for monster EUCs (there are people who "make it work" by overtaking cars and riding dangerously), but that's by far not the general use case (it's also riskier to position your product as a rebellious thing -- eucs are expensive and legally underprotected). Expecting all new wheels to be geared towards the heaviest use is strange. Computers and phones have taught us that every new generation should surpass the next in raw performance, but that's not the case in general.

I think you make a very good point. That also show that some consider what they need vs wants vs nice have. Just buying most expensive or fastest wheel is not smart decision making. 

Good post from you. 

[Mango]

We have a finite time on this earth. If spending money buying eucs to enjoy and have fun, it is an investment.

[Robse]

5 hours ago, Unventor said:

That depends. 

If you don't ride at top speed or aggressive and that you ride is on average of most riders do then it will fit many riders. 

I rarely ride my V11 below 50%. It happens but not often. Also I tend to ride around 35-40kmh as my top speed. 

This has to do with bicycle lanes and their quality and trafic. 

So for some that better side will make less heavy compared to a bigger battery and less expensive too. 

my primary goal is to have the best safety margin = best power ressources,  and to have some kind of equal proportions: New wheel, big engine, top specification, AND equally a battery 😉 . But your point is also valid 🙂

[Robse]

5 hours ago, Mango said:

We have a finite time on this earth. If spending money buying eucs to enjoy and have fun, it is an investment.

The one to own the most and best toys will be the winner when he dies. 😏

[Ronin Ryder]

 

[alcatraz]

How can the S19 be 32kg with 1800Wh 100v, but the S16 84v 1500Wh is 33.3kg? Makes zero sense.