KingSong S19 1800wh: 100V, 18" tire, suspension, 71lbs

[mrelwood]

3 hours ago, techyiam said:

Meaning what?

Meaning that while big wheels may be tougher to learn on, people do it all the time. It’s not an obstacle.

3 hours ago, techyiam said:

What would be the percentage of people learning to ride an electric wheel for the first time?

You lost me. What has that got to do with anything?

3 hours ago, techyiam said:

It would have been total ludicrous for me to start on the Abrams.

If you don’t mind purchasing multiple wheels, sure. Abrams is of course an extreme example, and of a size that even extremely few experienced riders use. So it probably wouldn’t be sensible to assume that it would be someone’s end game wheel. S22 on the other hand is a very popular wheel, which is a sufficient wheel for many seasoned riders as well. Therefore somewhat of a safe buy if you only want to buy one.

[Wolverine]

 

[RagingGrandpa]

I rode a demo S19... and had a huge scary fast overlean dip  
I rode it out without crashing, but only just. Heart skipped a beat.

I think it was a problem of expectations. 

• S19 has a freespin around 50mph,
• a beep speed of 36mph,
• a moderately-strong static pull force of 175lb,
• feels torquey in general (difficult to make dip with a pendulum thrust),
• advertises stratospheric power numbers, 
• and is a ~70lb suspension wheel from 2023. 

Today's other similar-spec EUC's have no trouble operating at 40mph, but since this is a 100V system and a wheel unfamiliar to me, I was making an effort to not push the speed range. "No beeps" was my mantra for this ride. I expected strong performance in the 0-35mph range. 

Shame that KS doesn't have PWM-based alarms or tiltback. It really would have helped.
My data suggests that borderline PWM duty was sustained for more than 3 seconds before self-balancing failed. But the speeds were still in the normal range (15 to 35mph), so: no beeps and no warning. 

If I owned an S19, I would set a loud and obvious app-based alert at 40 amps battery current.

 

[skunkmonkey]

3 hours ago, RagingGrandpa said:

I rode a demo S19... and had a huge scary fast overlean dip  
I rode it out without crashing, but only just. Heart skipped a beat.

I'm glad you were able to pull out of it in time. I agree, tilt back is a must for me. Safety first in my book.

[Circuitmage]

Wow, so much hate for this machine.

I'm actually looking closer at this one after being excited about the IM V11Y. I now see there is no USB port on the V11Y, no BT speakers and no LED's. Those are some things I like about the 2 wheels I have now. 

The S19 seems to be catering to that. Very flashy, very loud, with a fancy fairing. 

Coming from riding Katanas that were called "tea pots" by other riders due to their large fairings, I actually like the design. 

My only issue is if the pads/plastic makes for a comfortable ride, which some people have stated it does not. This probably depends on taste, so I am hoping to be able to stand on one some time.

The other main thing, as everyone has pointed out, is the price. It is a bit higher for the same class ride compared to what's just above it and around it. So, that is a detractor. Paying $3K for something with specs not much better than what I already have would be an issue.  

[MrP-MrF]

@RagingGrandpa @Circuitmage
 

I rode an S19 demo... and I fell in love with it.

I should point out that I had S18, 18XL, 18L, 16S, V5F, V10F, and so on.

And it makes me laugh when I read that "I almost crashed, but barely. My heart skipped a beat."
“I think it was a problem of expectations.”

Indeed, the S19 has a maximum speed of 70km/h, I confirm an impressive soft high torque engine (I very quickly exceeded the legal 25Km/h for the test and I was already at 37km/h when I checked the speed that I did not see, and this uphill.

It's 100V, nervous, KS has an excellent security algorithm, and it will NEVER be gotway.
So when we i'm reading being close of almost crashing while trying to do a too quickly super acceleration, I would say that it is bad faith.

I loved the feeling of suspension. The S18 was a nice wheel, but too short 3-cell pack, without speakers.
I tested this wheel, and ordered the same day.

[Rawnei]

On 10/2/2023 at 5:33 PM, RagingGrandpa said:

I rode a demo S19... and had a huge scary fast overlean dip  
I rode it out without crashing, but only just. Heart skipped a beat.

I think it was a problem of expectations. 

• S19 has a freespin around 50mph,
• a beep speed of 36mph,
• a moderately-strong static pull force of 175lb,
• feels torquey in general (difficult to make dip with a pendulum thrust),
• advertises stratospheric power numbers, 
• and is a ~70lb suspension wheel from 2023. 

Today's other similar-spec EUC's have no trouble operating at 40mph, but since this is a 100V system and a wheel unfamiliar to me, I was making an effort to not push the speed range. "No beeps" was my mantra for this ride. I expected strong performance in the 0-35mph range. 

Shame that KS doesn't have PWM-based alarms or tiltback. It really would have helped.
My data suggests that borderline PWM duty was sustained for more than 3 seconds before self-balancing failed. But the speeds were still in the normal range (15 to 35mph), so: no beeps and no warning. 

If I owned an S19, I would set a loud and obvious app-based alert at 40 amps battery current.

 

Same thing with the S22, I've been trying to warn people about it but so many people don't even believe it, they really ought to change tiltback to be PWM based instead of speed based, EUC World or equivalent alarms is essential when riding King Song wheels because of this.

Glad you managed to recover it.

[Forwardnbak]

The guys at ERIDERZ gave me another roll on the S19 today and it gives me a great roll. 

I found it felt zippy, agile and surprised me again. This was the second little play id had.

Ill do a video but I found the warnings great, beeps at 70kph and a bell sound when overpowering but even then I didn't find it dipping.

I wasnt chasing speeds past 70kph, I played with some small jumps and just had some fun grass runs.

I got straight off this and onto the sherman s and both were fun.

As a package this s19 seems pretty good, the speakers have killer bass! 

Edited October 14, 2023 by Forwardnbak

[Circuitmage]

I 100% agree that none of you should buy this wheel.

(so that the price can drop and I can pick one up) 

[MrP-MrF]

Just received it today

[KNZ]

There’s nothing quite like the look and smell of a fresh EUC 

[Circuitmage]

@MrP-MrF Impressions so far? Esp. compared to KS 18XL?

Edited October 31, 2023 by Circuitmage

[LewisF]

Hi folks!

I received my new s19 a couple of days ago (upgrade from trusty 18l)

My thoughts so far: 

- It's big! I hadn't appreciated the size of the s19 until I saw it in person. Compared to the 18l at least, this is a substantial step-up and it feels like a vehicle. It's a different class really in terms of usability - where I was comfortable wheeling the 18l into all sorts of places (shops / gym etc) as a very transient device, the s19 is much more imposing. It's fine, but quite different and something I hadn't fully appreciated until recieving. 
- The ride is incredibly plush and stable - it eats up hills, and feels very safe and balanced. That said, I feel less agile and quickly manoeuvrable than I did with the 18l - a combo of the weight, taller stance and pads restricting some movement. 
 

My big wishes for this wheel (please address Kingsong!): 
- Provide options to switch off LEDs entirely, and/or option to switch LEDs to a single colour - and also to be able to set the tail light to be always red (rather than only when braking). To be fixed with the rainbow-look while riding really isn't ideal and provides no option to be discreet (which can be important here in the UK where we're often keen to minimise attention from police etc). Also, it's safer to ride on roads/cycle paths with a simple red tail-light. The LEDs might be cool for some - but it's a frustration for me that there are no options to switch-off or change/customise the look. 

- Similarly, there should be option to switch off the sound effects - again these are problematic in the office or in public places and (for me) make the wheel feel more like a toy. Again, it just needs option to switch them off rather than having them as a forced thing. 

I really hope these things can be updated in the firmware soon! Otherwise, on initial impressions, this seems like a great wheel.

Edited November 25, 2023 by LewisF

[techyiam]

53 minutes ago, LewisF said:

To be fixed with the rainbow-look while riding really isn't ideal and provides no option to be discreet (which can be important here in the UK where we're often keen to minimise attention from police etc).

Instead of waiting for Kingsong to provide a software solution, you may want to open up the wheel, and just disconnect the RGB light connector.

[Robse]

I would like to be of assistance and refer to the user @Kingson Customer Support, who, as many may remember, has been very interested in information for use in improving Kingsong as a product and towards the customers.  But this username no longer exists - it has been changed to "ride INMOTION".  Just a belated April Fool's joke, a mistake, or?   But it smells like trolls... @ride INMOTION  

[onewheelkoregro]

1 hour ago, LewisF said:

Hi folks!

I received my new s19 a couple of days ago (upgrade from trusty 18l)

My thoughts so far: 

- It's big! I hadn't appreciated the size of the s19 until I saw it in person. Compared to the 18l at least, this is a substantial step-up and it feels like a vehicle. It's a different class really in terms of usability - where I was comfortable wheeling the 18l into all sorts of places (shops / gym etc) as a very transient device, the s19 is much more imposing. It's fine, but quite different and something I hadn't fully appreciated until recieving. 
- The ride is incredibly plush and stable - it eats up hills, and feels very safe and balanced. That said, I feel less agile and quickly manoeuvrable than I did with the 18l - a combo of the weight, taller stance and pads restricting some movement. 
 

My big wishes for this wheel (please address Kingsong!): 
- Provide options to switch off LEDs entirely, and/or option to switch LEDs to a single colour - and also to be able to set the tail light to be always red (rather than only when braking). To be fixed with the rainbow-look while riding really isn't ideal and provides no option to be discreet (which can be important here in the UK where we're often keen to minimise attention from police etc). Also, it's safer to ride on roads/cycle paths with a simple red tail-light. The LEDs might be cool for some - but it's a frustration for me that there are no options to switch-off or change/customise the look. 

- Similarly, there should be option to switch off the sound effects - again these are problematic in the office or in public places and (for me) make the wheel feel more like a toy. Again, it just needs option to switch them off rather than having them as a forced thing. 

I really hope these things can be updated in the firmware soon! Otherwise, on initial impressions, this seems like a great wheel.

It is between the s19 or the commander mini for my next wheel. But I really like the S19 over the commander mini even though the mini has a higher top speed. I usually only travel around 37 mph any way so

[ikeceosaor]

2 hours ago, onewheelkoregro said:

between the s19 or the commander mini

I am also deciding between these wheels. I think the major advantage of the s19 is the better BMS because I don't think the Commander mini has a sophisticated BMS. Also the s19 weighs 16 lb less but I think the Mini has smaller dimensions. Previously I was also considering the Begode Extreme but not anymore due to the motor mount structural issue.

Edit: tbf, the Smart BMS in the s19 is only a Smart Passive BMS. Though it can monitor individual cell voltage, you still have to charge to 100% every now-and-then to ensure they are balanced while an Active BMS would balance cells while charging to any overall level. But this is similar to all other EUCs with Smart BMS, they're all passive or even less sophisticated.

Edited November 26, 2023 by ikeceosaor

[techyiam]

1 hour ago, ikeceosaor said:

I am also deciding between these wheels. I think the major advantage of the s19 is the better BMS because I don't think the Commander mini has a sophisticated BMS. Also the s19 weighs 16 lb less but I think the Mini has smaller dimensions. Previously I was also considering the Begode Extreme but not anymore due to the motor mount structural issue.

Edit: tbf, the Smart BMS in the s19 is only a Smart Passive BMS. Though it can monitor individual cell voltage, you still have to charge to 100% every now-and-then to ensure they are balanced while an Active BMS would balance cells while charging to any overall level. But this is similar to all other EUCs with Smart BMS, they're all passive or even less sophisticated.

I guess if that is what is most important to you.

The best is if you can ride them both. Once you have, you will be able to immediately tell the main differences.

Looking at specs will lead you to think about them in a certain way. And after riding them, you may form entirely different impressions of them. It had happened to me so many times.

I was ready to buy the Commander Mini. Fortunately, I had an opportunity to very briefly to ride one, just up and down a bit in a parking lot. That limited experience turned me off the Mini completely. My first impression was that the ride, acceleration, braking, and handling was not better than my V12. Maybe at higher speeds, I didn't test that. The suspension was stiff, and brake wobble tendency was high. But that was enough  for me. At the time, the Commander Mini was selling for a very good price. Even then, I took it off the table.

On paper, the Commander Pro trumps the S19 in most ways. One positive of the S19 is that it is a lower voltage version of the S22 but with all the fixes. After a very brief ride in a showroom, it felt polished, refined (not Lynx refined), and well balanced. I can see this as a good 2nd wheel, urban runabout, or as a commuter.

On paper, the Commander Mini out shined the S19 by a country mile, especially if you take into account the prices.

However, after riding them a bit, I could tell the S19 has potential, and the Commander Mini was not for me.

If you can, ride them both before deciding. You just never know which way you will be swayed afterwards.

If you don't mind spending more money, and 90 lbs is manageable, consider the Patton.

 

[Circuitmage]

@LewisF Thanks for posting! I am very interested in this wheel and also noticed the dimensions are significantly more than my 18L. It's pretty nice, but that may cause an issue for commuting / transporting.

Also your LED observations are noted, as I have seen on other reviews. I don't think that would bother me as much as the size and weight issue.

And your agility comments are noted. Many people complain about the speaker placement, does that bother you?
I don't think it would bother me much, as I am a commuter and ride a lot of straight lines. As long as the pads are comfy, which most people say they are.

[ikeceosaor]

Zen Lee just released a good video that tests the limits of the S19 and has a bit of comparison between this 18" wheel and a 16" Patton, which has lots more torque. Just look at the sand kicked up by the 16" Patton. The S19 does pretty good for a lower voltage wheel. Hard to tell for sure which one is beeping but they really push these wheels hard. Wonder if any of them got any damage to the controller, notwithstanding sand in moving parts.

 

[Uras]

On 11/26/2023 at 11:50 AM, techyiam said:

Instead of waiting for Kingsong to provide a software solution, you may want to open up the wheel, and just disconnect the RGB light connector.

I removed the strips from my 16x the first time I disassembled the wheel. 

[techyiam]

1 hour ago, Uras said:

I removed the strips from my 16x the first time I disassembled the wheel. 

Makes sense to me.

[Frolic0415]

On 10/3/2023 at 2:33 AM, RagingGrandpa said:

Shame that KS doesn't have PWM-based alarms or tiltback. It really would have helped.

Do they not? I'm fairly sire the 16x had PWM tiltback and alarms.

[Chriull]

3 hours ago, Frolic0415 said:

Do they not? I'm fairly sire the 16x had PWM tiltback and alarms.

From KS16S onwards since ?FW 2.0? pwm was reported and the firmware has a fixed 88% pwm alarm (continous beeps)

Maximum Speed is reduced by the firmware with lower battery charge and afair also with pwm %.

So with tiltback set at the maximum possible speed one could have had some ("indirect") kind of pwm tiltback.

[RagingGrandpa]

To alert the rider in a situation like my near-crash with S19, a warning (beep or tilt) is needed at moderate speeds like 20mph, if you become near the motor's limit. 
The alert could be based on current, or PWM duty. The controller already knows both.