KingSong S19 1800wh: 100V, 18" tire, suspension, 71lbs

[Uras]

On 10/7/2023 at 2:29 AM, Circuitmage said:

I now see there is no USB port on the V11Y, no BT speakers and no LED's

Ahh, that sounds more appealing to me . Those "extras" are usually what puts me off. Luckily we're both being appealed to

[Uras]

17 hours ago, Frolic0415 said:

Do they not? I'm fairly sire the 16x had PWM tiltback and alarms.

yes, it does. I've experienced it. Also a very loud "please decelerate". I had that once recently, I heeded it and slowed down to about 20kmh. I still climbed up a 300m 28 degree hill right at the end (we live on top of a hill). 27% battery at home. The tiltback comes in at very low voltages, and gets more severe quickly. I only enabled the talking on the wheel a couple of months ago - I was riding down the same steep hill on full charge and wasn't aware of the overcharging. My partners 14d would tell her when it was being over charged. Now I just walk down the hill when it is fully charged. I'm surprised that the wheel isn't verbose - just the usual "blahtooth is on" when starting up. My friend's son (6yo) apparently is getting told to "please decelerate" all the time on his 16s; he ignores it . His mother decided that the best thing to do was to get him a more powerful wheel to avoid the warnings - awesome mum 

Edited December 2, 2023 by Uras

[Seba]

Recently I was improving S19 support in EUC World and was working with one, brand new unit that I personally removed from the box (sealed at factory). It turned on and immediately started to report error 26. Both batteries showed extreme imbalance, at last connection it was 3.42 V for one battery and 0.62 V for second battery. Both values are well above normal. Connecting charger didn't improved anything, as you can see at the battery history graph below, for battery #1 imbalance got even worse. When looking at BMS details in EUC World, two cell groups were basically dead.

Also recently I got information from several unrelated, but credible sources that it's not uncommon that new S19 comes with faulty battery packs from factory.

[RagingGrandpa]

2 hours ago, Seba said:

brand new unit
When looking at BMS details in EUC World, two cell groups were basically dead.

Does it allow you to start charging the pack containing the <2.0V cells? 

(Those packs are defective and their owner deserves a warranty replacement... but I'm wondering if KS uses any undervoltage condition to prevent hazardous charging.)
 

Edited December 13, 2023 by RagingGrandpa

[Seba]

1 minute ago, RagingGrandpa said:

Does it allow you to start charging the pack containing the <2.0V cells? 

(Those packs are defective and their owner deserves a warranty replacement... but I'm wondering if KS uses any undervoltage condition to prevent hazardous charging.)
 

Of course! It throws an error, but it still allows you to charge the pack with totally faulty cell groups. I don't see any possibility to recover a group that is below one volt. Seems that KS is basically using the same BMS design as in S20/S22.

[Jason McNeil]

2 hours ago, Seba said:

Recently I was improving S19 support in EUC World and was working with one, brand new unit that I personally removed from the box (sealed at factory). It turned on and immediately started to report error 26. Both batteries showed extreme imbalance, at last connection it was 3.42 V for one battery and 0.62 V for second battery. Both values are well above normal. Connecting charger didn't improved anything, as you can see at the battery history graph below, for battery #1 imbalance got even worse.

Definitely not great... On the first round, several of the S19S arrived with totally depleted packs. For KS to make the same error on the S19 as on the earlier S22s demonstrates some pretty fundamental technical ineptitude/sloppiness—a most basic function of the BMS is to prevent discharge below 2.5V/cell —& they're wondering why no Dealer is prepared to order a large quantity of first releases on the S16, etc.    

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1gta4VgoHKaKgOgHSyDd94yKGKDwcYvhh/view?usp=sharing

[RagingGrandpa]

10 minutes ago, Seba said:

I don't see any possibility to recover a group that is below one volt

And we don't want to anyhow, because those cells have already been permanently damaged 

Edited December 13, 2023 by RagingGrandpa

[techyiam]

1 hour ago, Jason McNeil said:

On the first round, several of the S19S arrived with totally depleted packs.

Thank you for confirmation of the bad battery pack issue with the S19, especially from the distributor level. Early on, I watched on Youtube and read on Facebook about owners receiving DOA S19 due to bad battery packs. My first S22 was also dead due to bad battery packs.

Is Kingsong sourcing lower quality cells deliberately, or is there other reasons for this to occur abnormally higher for Kingsong. For example, is Kingsong doing something wrong at the production level or during shipping? Very Curious.

[RagingGrandpa]

I have to believe KS performs a simple end-of-line check of the battery status, since it's so easy to see with their per-cell voltage display over bluetooth. 

Assuming the cells were "balanced and good" when assembled, it makes me suspect that there was some small load connected to certain cells, which discharged them over the few weeks of shipping duration. A defect in the BMS hardware or logic could easily cause it, by leaving a balancing resistor stuck ON... which is much more difficult to check for after assembly.

[Rawnei]

1 hour ago, RagingGrandpa said:

I have to believe KS performs a simple end-of-line check of the battery status, since it's so easy to see with their per-cell voltage display over bluetooth. 

Assuming the cells were "balanced and good" when assembled, it makes me suspect that there was some small load connected to certain cells, which discharged them over the few weeks of shipping duration. A defect in the BMS hardware or logic could easily cause it, by leaving a balancing resistor stuck ON... which is much more difficult to check for after assembly.

Then it really can't be the "same" BMS as in the S22 because S22 BMS doesn't do that.

[onewheelkoregro]

5 hours ago, Seba said:

Recently I was improving S19 support in EUC World and was working with one, brand new unit that I personally removed from the box (sealed at factory). It turned on and immediately started to report error 26. Both batteries showed extreme imbalance, at last connection it was 3.42 V for one battery and 0.62 V for second battery. Both values are well above normal. Connecting charger didn't improved anything, as you can see at the battery history graph below, for battery #1 imbalance got even worse. When looking at BMS details in EUC World, two cell groups were basically dead.

Also recently I got information from several unrelated, but credible sources that it's not uncommon that new S19 comes with faulty battery packs from factory.

Thats really disappointing I was hoping to get back to riding Kingsong with the S19 but I don't feel confident anymore if they are shipping out dead wheels... Looks like it is still between the new Master, Extreme, and Commander Mini...

[Robse]

maybe a firmware issue? I recall some related problems with the 18L / XL and 16X where you had to do a power cycle after a full charge to stop the wheel from (auto) draining the batteries ( blue tooth module) ?

[novazeus]

my money is on bluetooth as well.

look at my s18 because i didn't disconnect the bluetooth before pulling the charge cord.

my s22 for comparison.

[techyiam]

32 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

Then it really can't be the "same" BMS as in the S22 because S22 BMS doesn't do that.

Can you expand on what you mean by the "S22 BMS doesn't do that"?

The S22 does do cell balancing at the end of the charge cycle, in which the highest charged cells are drained.

[novazeus]

Just now, techyiam said:

Can you expand on what you mean by the "S22 BMS doesn't do that"?

The S22 does do cell balancing at the end of the charge cycle, in which the highest charged cells are drained.

s18 and s22 very different. s22 shuts off when it reaches it's desired voltage. charger could stay in for weeks, nothing is happening. the s18 keeps it bluetooth on plugged in and will trickle charge for a couple of hours after the charger turns green. 

it's plug the charger into the wheel first, then charger into the power source, then reverse order. i got where i'd double check by turning on the app to see if bluetooth was still running. i turn the app off first on all my wheels now out of habit. 

[techyiam]

14 minutes ago, novazeus said:

s18 and s22 very different. s22 shuts off when it reaches it's desired voltage. charger could stay in for weeks, nothing is happening. the s18 keeps it bluetooth on plugged in and will trickle charge for a couple of hours after the charger turns green. 

it's plug the charger into the wheel first, then charger into the power source, then reverse order. i got where i'd double check by turning on the app to see if bluetooth was still running. i turn the app off first on all my wheels now out of habit. 

The chargers on both of my S22 and Abrams will shutdown current after they have reached a certain charging condition. I can tell by looking at the power meter on the AC side. The AC power draw will go down to zero.

By monitoring the Smart BMS, I can determine that one of my packs on the S22 never does cell balancing.

The problem with S22 Smart BMS's is that one of them reports a 1.2 V higher voltage at all times. Hence, the higher voltage pack get cell balancing. And when that pack is done, the charger halts the charger process. My battery packs are healthy now and full charge.

 

In contrast, my Begode T3, and Inmotion V12 both have chargers that continue to draw AC power as long as the charger is plugged in.

[onewheelkoregro]

51 minutes ago, novazeus said:

s18 and s22 very different. s22 shuts off when it reaches it's desired voltage. charger could stay in for weeks, nothing is happening. the s18 keeps it bluetooth on plugged in and will trickle charge for a couple of hours after the charger turns green. 

it's plug the charger into the wheel first, then charger into the power source, then reverse order. i got where i'd double check by turning on the app to see if bluetooth was still running. i turn the app off first on all my wheels now out of habit. 

I do this as well. Disconnect the app then power off the wheel. I made the mistake of powering it off before disconnecting and had to power it on and off again to get EUC world to connect again

[onewheelkoregro]

29 minutes ago, techyiam said:

The chargers on both of my S22 and Abrams will shutdown current after they have reached a certain charging condition. I can tell by looking at the power meter on the AC side. The AC power draw will go down to zero.

By monitoring the Smart BMS, I can determine that one of my packs on the S22 never does cell balancing.

The problem with S22 Smart BMS's is that one of them reports a 1.2 V higher voltage at all times. Hence, the higher voltage pack get cell balancing. And when that pack is done, the charger halts the charger process. My battery packs are healthy now and full charge.

 

In contrast, my Begode T3, and Inmotion V12 both have chargers that continue to draw AC power as long as the charger is plugged in.

v12 still charges the wheel after reaching a certain point? I have been riding an inmotion for like 6 months now and I left it on the charger overnight once and it still just read 100.4 in the morning.

[Robse]

15 minutes ago, onewheelkoregro said:

v12 still charges the wheel after reaching a certain point? I have been riding an inmotion for like 6 months now and I left it on the charger overnight once and it still just read 100.4 in the morning.

You can not trust the App, you can not trust the wheel display, and you certainly can not and never trust the readings at the charger display (if any).

The only thing to trust is this:

[Rawnei]

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

Can you expand on what you mean by the "S22 BMS doesn't do that"?

The S22 does do cell balancing at the end of the charge cycle, in which the highest charged cells are drained.

The S22 doesn't phantom drain cells if you leave it standing, it stops balancing pretty early.

[techyiam]

36 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

The S22 doesn't phantom drain cells if you leave it standing, it stops balancing pretty early.

I see.

Out of the box, that was what I observed too.

But if a drain resistor circuit is faulty, it can theoretically still drain current.

 

I played with the charger's charging voltage, and if one adjust the voltage to about 126.2 V, the cell balancing goes on longer.

And the other way to enable more cell balancing is to wait for a few hours after changing, and turned on the charger again. 

[onewheelkoregro]

1 hour ago, Robse said:

You can not trust the App, you can not trust the wheel display, and you certainly can not and never trust the readings at the charger display (if any).

The only thing to trust is this:

I usually top it off once a week (Sunday) and since the temp is starting to drop I usually give it a little cheater charge Thursday or Friday. I always check it with a multimeter and it says 100.4 in the app and it usually is sitting around 100.2 when I check it. So a .2 difference is negligible.

[onewheelkoregro]

1 hour ago, Robse said:

You can not trust the App, you can not trust the wheel display, and you certainly can not and never trust the readings at the charger display (if any).

The only thing to trust is this:

EUC world seems to be more accurate then the Inmotion App as well but I can't get it to charge to a true 100.4 maybe if I get a different charger?

[novazeus]

my very first wheel evah, the 18s, king song's flagship wheel. when i got it, it would only charge to 90% according to king song's app. the expert advice on the forum at the time was to take apart my battery packs and check each battery. i knew that was insane!

i knew it was firmware, so i had a three am call with king song using their developer app, and fixed it. 

chances are with king song, their app is wrong. 

i figured out what the error codes thing is, i keep getting the overvoltage one and telling me not to ride it downhill. evidently it doesn't know where i live. so it's a warning. stupid, but a warning. 

[onewheelkoregro]

Apparently Kingsong says the issue is "resolved". Hopefully they remedied the faulty wheels instead of a repeat of the whole S20 fiasco.