God Mod- Buyer Beware.

[Funky]

11 minutes ago, Bizra6ot said:

The best part is 2h00 to 2h01 

I plan to order 3 gmod to upgrade my Exn C30 to C54 extra pro torque

That part alone says everything you need to know - in those 3 hrs.. LOL

It's like saying my hex screws - will make my wheel go 2x times faster.  

Edited January 26, 2023 by Funky

[Robse]

11 minutes ago, Bizra6ot said:

The best part is 2h00 to 2h01 

I plan to order 3 gmod to upgrade my Exn C30 to C54 extra pro torque

any balls left?

[Funky]

I need to find some Titanium grip/spike inserts for my pedals. I will make them longer, about ~5mm and they will flex under my 280lbs heavy ass. Now that's a plan! 

Edited January 26, 2023 by Funky

[Uras]

2 hours ago, Funky said:

As someone who has titanium in his neck. I would differ - i could not live without it. 

I have a heap in my foot. One of it's positive properties is that it is biocompatible - safe inside the body.

[Roadpower]

I didn't hear anything useful and I doubt that he has done any interview with anyone who can ask him pointed technical questions. The whole thing is reminiscent of people who talk about inline inserts for fuel to engine in cars and how you would get X% amount of fuel efficiency as a result. If a manufacture can get a better result for their clients, they are absolutely going to do just that to pump up their sales.

Let's imagine that he did in fact invent some way to get better results in an electromotive device. Don't you think that he would have patented it and gone to the auto makers who are now in a very desperate state to not get killed by Tesla? Or gone to Elon Musk himself?

Sorry but this is a laughable scene. It's just new snake oil, like mRNA as a "vaccine".

[KiwiMark]

I clicked and the video started, I saw the length and stopped it - sorry, I've only seen the first 3 seconds.  In other words - too long, didn't watch.

I've read this thread though, because it doesn't take almost 3 hours to do that!

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

8 hours ago, Uras said:

titanium is hard to live with. For example thread strength is less. From the mtb world I know that people use steel bolts to tension stuff, then remove those bolts and install the titanium ones. It's a lot of bs just for some less weight and less strength; they're relying on the public's ignorance - steel is stronger.

My comment was about the god mod, because he didn't invented titanium. 😅

[Planemo]

8 hours ago, Funky said:

How can they "flex"? The gap between "L" hanger and pedal is max what 1-2mm? They can't flex.. (They don't have space to flex.)

And that right there is why the selling point that Ti rods will give more comfort is nonsense.

I accept that using Ti has other benefits (not rusting being one) but comfort...just no.

It's a shame because it makes me feel that if there actually was any benefit to adding caps, my faith in the seller is lost because of the tripe regarding 'increased comfort' of Ti rods.

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

Oh boy, what laughs I've probably missed the last 2-3 years, since I'm no longer so active here in the forum due to lack of time, I do not even want to imagine.

I also have no desire to make great explanations regarding the titanium rods. But to all those who are here seriously of the opinion that a titanium bolt (as it is installed here), can be flexible, has technically not the slightest idea and should rather deal with the things he can.

And all the stupid talk only because google says that titanium is more flexible than steel. Which is also true.

[2disbetter]

14 hours ago, Tawpie said:

48 MOSFETs and (get this) 18 caps are part of the secret sauce of the Raptor controller… we buy into that being somehow 'safer' and in general 'better' with little more data as to why.

(well, I don't buy it but I'm a grumpy old curmudgeon—that used to design this kind of stuff)

Electrical engineers can validate why this is better and safer, because it absolutely is. The very fact that the number of mosfets and caps are listed is absolutely contrary to what is being described here, as here nothing of quantitative value about the godmods is actually discussed. 

You can approach any electrical engineer and ask them about this being safer to other designs using less of these components and get a factual assessment of this being the case. Because of this Inmotion proudly (and rightly so) and boldly displays it for all the world to see. 

No such thing is happening here, nor can it with the lack of information actually being shared. 

full disclosure: I have not wasted my time watching the video in the slightest. I am basing my comments on comments already shared here. 

Edited January 27, 2023 by 2disbetter

[Funky]

35 minutes ago, 2disbetter said:

Electrical engineers can validate why this is better and safer, because it absolutely is. The very fact that the number of mosfets and caps are listed is absolutely contrary to what is being described here, as here nothing of quantitative value about the godmods is actually discussed. 

You can approach any electrical engineer and ask them about this being safer to other designs using less of these components and get a factual assessment of this being the case. Because of this Inmotion proudly (and rightly so) and boldly displays it for all the world to see. 

No such thing is happening here, nor can it with the lack of information actually being shared. 

full disclosure: I have not wasted my time watching the video in the slightest. I am basing my comments on comments already shared here. 

Instead of 48. Couldn't they use simply "bigger" ones? Same time less of them?

By having 48 other things can go wrong.. Can't whole system go "bad", if one of those 48 bites the dust? Or are installed in subpar quality..

[2disbetter]

15 minutes ago, Funky said:

By having 48 other things can go wrong.. Can't whole system go "bad", if one of those 48 bites the dust? Or are installed in subpar quality..

The reason why more is better is redundancy. In this case if you loose a mosfet you have several layers of redundancy. Same thing with caps. The whole Raptor system is intentionally over-engineered. But this is all quantifiable. This is the point. Inmotion is being honest about it with facts. Whether the customer understands this is something else. 

 

[Paul A]

God Mod was discussed on another thread as well.

 

Think Seba has explained why it is nonsense.

"A few more words regarding the function of the capacitor as a local energy source. A capacitor with a capacity of 1000 microfarades (which is quite large) in a 100V wheel is capable of giving off a maximum of... 0.00006722 Wh ! Yes, this is less than one ten-thousandth of a watt-hour! And that's only if you discharge it from 100V to a voltage equivalent to a fully discharged battery. I think this clearly shows that the capacitor in this role fails completely. The capacitor is capable of responding to momentary load peaks, lasting no more than a few thousandths of a second. That's all."

 

[Seba]

5 hours ago, 2disbetter said:

Electrical engineers can validate why this is better and safer, because it absolutely is. The very fact that the number of mosfets and caps are listed is absolutely contrary to what is being described here, as here nothing of quantitative value about the godmods is actually discussed. 

First and most important from the engineers point of view - it's easier to distribute required capacitance on the PCB area by placing more smallest capacitors than one, big and bulky. Also it gives some redundance, usually offers better impedance and also gives better flow of currents in inverter DC "bus" (actually more a plane than a bus). But this is more of a marketing than an intended improvement of the circuit. It's like a battery - it's easier to design a battery that has complex shape by using more of small cells than a one big.

Edited January 27, 2023 by Seba

[Tawpie]

5 hours ago, 2disbetter said:

The reason why more is better is redundancy. In this case if you loose a mosfet you have several layers of redundancy. Same thing with caps.

You would think this is the case, but in actuality, it may not be true at all.

For us that depend on self balancing voodoo, the kind of MOSFET failure that we dread is a MOSFET that develops a short circuit—parts that do this get so hot so quickly they often melt their leads off or physically burst and as a direct consequence we get up close and personal with the pavement. Adding more MOSFETs would be done to try to share current between individual parts so you can use common and thus less expensive ones, and this means you'll connect them in parallel and try to switch them all exactly at the same time. But if any single MOSFET fails short circuit, it shorts out the phase and the net effect is the same... the parallel FETs cannot help. Adding more parts adds more potential for failure, the reliability calculations are simple arithmetic.

The only time parallel parts function as redundant is if you can remove a failing part from the circuit, and in order to do that you need even more parts. Yes, a shorted MOSFET will either melt its leads or undergo rapid disassembly and likely remove itself from the circuit, but by the time that happens you're already headed down and usually other bad things are happening in the circuit. Like sparks, and flying bits of molten solder, smoke that will ionize, voltage and current fluctuations, etc. etc.

More MOSFETs is plain and simple a push to source more common and thus cheaper parts (each part handles less current, they're smaller and cheaper and much more common because they have a lot of other applications). "More" results in a reduction of reliability, not an increase. There's a Mil-Spec if you want to fact check (a handbook actually... MIL-HDBK-217).

I do take issue with IM using increased parts count as a sales point that implies improved safety. Sure, it allows you to more safely use inexpensive parts, but overall the circuit reliability will decrease. The true answer to improving safety of the motor drive is to use as few parts as possible, and this means very expensive MOSFETs, probably custom.

Caps are a slightly different story but my guess is that they had to add more because the power demand meant that they needed to be much more careful managing the motor drive voltage supply. More caps is more likely to have been an artifact of the instantaneous power demand and some due to the MOSFET count than anything else, it's a side effect.

IMPORTANT

IM, in my opinion, had little choice but to increase the parts count in Raptor and I don't find any fault with that at all. They are pushing their envelope on power delivery and in order to do that in a way that was (somewhat) affordable they couldn't choose a very high current high voltage MOSFET. Such a beast may not even exist. So they did what they need to do to meet the desired performance requirements with the parts that are viable—more, in parallel. It is an effective solution, but more is not automatically better. Particularly when it comes to reliability.

Edited January 27, 2023 by Tawpie

[Paul A]

Who is Declan?

What are his qualifications, credentials, bona fides etc?

[2disbetter]

32 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

I do take issue with IM using increased parts count as a sales point that implies improved safety. Sure, it allows you to more safely use inexpensive parts, but overall the circuit reliability will decrease. The true answer to improving safety of the motor drive is to use as few parts as possible, and this means very expensive MOSFETs, probably custom.

I can agree with you here. However, I think in the absence of any EUC manufacturers taking this to heart, what Inmotion is doing is important. It sets up a new race among the EUC manufacturers that will hopefully one day lead to the very thing you are saying. That all said, the V13 is still the best built and safest EUC on the market now, at least as far as I can tell. 

[Robse]

15 minutes ago, Paul A said:

Who is Declan?

What are his qualifications, credentials, bona fides etc?

Masters degree in S.cam from diplomas.print institute in the land far far away...

[GoGeorgeGo]

does anyone here have a godmod? can someone cut the shrink wrap and let us know what the capacitor ratings are? 

i messaged the website about it but was told they are not divulging that information. which i dont understand, they have 3 different sizes and i am trying to make an informed decision. 

like if a small is 5 farads then i would like to buy one. but if a large is only say 1000uf then i might opt to try building my own.

i do believe the EX20 has an issue with instant power delivery leading to a lower than expected low end torque performance. im hoping a capacitor bank can help with the instant load created in low torque situations. once moving the ex20 has plenty of torque, but a slow speeds its really lacking

im tempted to just buy one to make a video on but 150$ is steep for a product i may be able to make 1000x better for cheaper by sourcing different capacitors. i found some 5.5v 4farad caps that i could produce a 76farad 100v capacitor bank with

Edited January 27, 2023 by GoGeorgeGo

[Paul A]

The GodMod might be a con.....to extract $150 from people....

[Rollin-on-1]

1 hour ago, GoGeorgeGo said:

does anyone here have a godmod? can someone cut the shrink wrap and let us know what the capacitor ratings are? 

i messaged the website about it but was told they are not divulging that information. which i dont understand, they have 3 different sizes and i am trying to make an informed decision. 

like if a small is 5 farads then i would like to buy one. but if a large is only say 1000uf then i might opt to try building my own.

i do believe the EX20 has an issue with instant power delivery leading to a lower than expected low end torque performance. im hoping a capacitor bank can help with the instant load created in low torque situations. once moving the ex20 has plenty of torque, but a slow speeds its really lacking

im tempted to just buy one to make a video on but 150$ is steep for a product i may be able to make 1000x better for cheaper by sourcing different capacitors. i found some 5.5v 4farad caps that i could produce a 76farad 100v capacitor bank with

You should do both and compare the results.  I am sure a lot of people would watch your video(s) on the topic.

[Mono]

1 hour ago, GoGeorgeGo said:

i messaged the website about it but was told they are not divulging that information.

Kinda all I need to know about the product.

[Rollin-on-1]

1 hour ago, GoGeorgeGo said:

can someone cut the shrink wrap and let us know what the capacitor ratings are? 

I don't endorse cutting one open though.  God Mod is Declan's IP.  He has put time and money into making a product that he believes in.  I think skepticism is healthy but it can be tested in a good faith manner that serves the community and respects Declan's IP.

[Robse]

11 minutes ago, Rollin-on-1 said:

You should do both and compare the results.  I am sure a lot of people would watch your video(s) on the topic.

And a custom build trailer with blinkenlights for the caps, yessir

[Funky]

1 minute ago, Robse said:

And a custom build trailer with blinkenlights for the caps, yessir

It looks like something i made, but bigger.. Is it a taser? 

Edited January 27, 2023 by Funky