God Mod- Buyer Beware.

[Roadpower]

It's Easier to Fool People Than to Convince Them That They Have Been Fooled.

This is exactly why controls are required to weed out placebo.

[GoGeorgeGo]

6 hours ago, The Brahan Seer said:

When you do your testing can you make it a double blind one to eliminate any placebo effect.

To do this make up another unit that looks identical in size, looks and weight to the one you are buying and give it to someone else with the original without telling them which is which. Then get them to install either one in your wheel without you seeing. Test the rig. Go back to your mate to install the second one without you seeing and repeat. I know this is a bit of work but without it you will always have doubters re placebo. I really hope this product does do something even if we aren't 100% sure why. I don't buy the protect IP argument because that is what patents are for. You don't see Apple tell iFixit or Maxtech to stop teardowns or  x-raying microchips. I look forward to your results.

i dont think i need to go that far, its going to be a cutout test so im not really relying on my opinion or feelings, either it cutsout or it doesnt. 

if it passes the tests then its a steal of a deal for only 150$. if it doesnt then maybe it does something maybe it does nothing, but its not worth the investment if its only extremely marginal effect. 

i will be testing the medium sized one

[GoGeorgeGo]

8 hours ago, Funky said:

I hope tests will be done same day. Not over a week long time period.. So user can't be more happy/energetic next day. Have eaten more sugar. Or have had a beer.

One day you don't feel any difference. Next day you feel everything. (But in reality nothing has changed - So called placebo effect.)

 

I wonder how you will test instant torque test. One test you can lean more.. Other test you lean less. - Ofc there will be difference.

Range test -  You need to ride same path, same speed all the time... Any stop/start can make your range differ! (Best option would be going in circles around stadion/running track. Boring i know, but you are testing..) 

 

You could also test max "free-spin" speed and how long it takes to power off, when it hits the max speed. (Just for LoL's.)  

Charging test maybe? (Any spikes or something.) You can test everything you normally do.  

 

 

all 3 tests might not be conducted same day, but each test will be completed side by side immediately one after the other with and without it installed 

[Tawpie]

17 hours ago, chanman said:

it only be the delta of voltage between the sagging cells and the capacitor? In that case the actual usable energy is a few volts on the top end of the curve, making the math look more like 1/6*(100^2-95^2)/2 = 81J?

The cap's stored energy cannot be calculated as if it would reach 0 V as it will only supply energy until its voltage is reduced to the battery voltage.

If the caps are connected in parallel across the battery terminals, the voltage at their connection point will by definition, be the same. What will happen is the battery will want to sag due to its internal losses, and the cap will discharge to make up for the energy the battery isn't delivering—thus slowing down the voltage sag at the common connection. At some point the battery will be able to hold its own and supply the full load's demand so the overall voltage will stabilize at that level (the battery sag level). When the power demand eases up, the battery must return energy to the capacitors so the voltage won't recover as quickly.

This is how the voltage is "smoothed" by the capacitors... when the load is constant the voltage goes down slower, and it also goes up slower.

 

(one niggling detail... 0.6F in your equation should be represented as 0.6, not 1/6... or 292.5 J of energy delivered when the cap discharges from 100V to 95V. This is not an inconsequential amount of energy. But do not forget, there is no free lunch. The cap must be recharged and while it's recharging, it's also holding the system voltage down)

[chanman]

4 hours ago, Tawpie said:

0.6F in your equation should be represented as 0.6, not 1/6

Appreciate the clarification on the behavior in parallel. On my math 1/6F was the number I was meaning to use, not sure why I introduced 0.6F, I had 1/6 in the post before. Perils of doing math late at night I guess lol.

Edited January 29, 2023 by chanman

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

If someone wants to test this crap, they are welcome to do so. But I don't give a damn about statements from people I don't know, especially if they are Youtuber I am very skeptical, even if there are exceptions.

When I look at and listen to what the majority of influencers are saying, I get really sick and with every new one that appears, I pray that the block list doesn't reach its limit at some point.

Wasn't here in this thread already a Youtuber who has awarded the god mod and god rod top marks and claims rock solid that the Titan rods are flexible in the installed state and this is noticeable? This guy is already the best proof and I could extend the list massively. 

 

[Paul A]

11 minutes ago, EUC Custom Power-Pads said:

crap

 

Some people are gullible for bogus products.

 

eg:  Power Balance is the original brand of hologram bracelets claimed by its manufacturers and vendors to use "holographic technology" to "resonate with and respond to the natural energy field of the body" to increase athletic performance.

The bracelets went on sale in 2007 and had several celebrity endorsements.^[6]

The bracelets became a trend among high school, collegiate, and professional sports teams between 2008 and 2012.

By the end of 2011 the company was reported to be approaching bankruptcy after allegedly having to settle a $57m lawsuit, in the course of which company executives acknowledged that their past claims to improve strength and balance were not backed by science.

 

 

 

[supercurio]

11 hours ago, GoGeorgeGo said:

i dont think i need to go that far, its going to be a cutout test so im not really relying on my opinion or feelings, either it cutsout or it doesnt. 

if it passes the tests then its a steal of a deal for only 150$. if it doesnt then maybe it does something maybe it does nothing, but its not worth the investment if its only extremely marginal effect. 

i will be testing the medium sized one

Please be careful in your tests, because contrary to what the seller says here and there, of course any wheel will still cutout with the accessory installed.

In terms of testing, I can suggest separating two types:

- where the torque is limited by the maximum phase current, which is a firmware parameter. Typically at low speeds, you can verify that by looking at phase current data provided over Bluetooth data.

Wheels typically don't beep for this limit, pedals simply dip forward.

In this scenario, battery voltage is not the limiting factor.

- where the torque is limited by PWM reaching 100% for that controller/speed/battery voltage/acceleration 

When the speed is high enough. Wheel should beep there.

 

Then there's an extra test that would be interesting, which is to evaluate if the accessory alters the pedal behavior. Some reported that soft pedal mode disappeared and is now hard, which implies that the hardware change messes with the PID tuning of all modes, making them harder

If that's confirmed it could be sufficient to make the motor and controller feel stronger, even if there is no other change in performance characteristics.

Changing PID tuning which recently became possible in @Freestylermodded firmware might offer the same results in that case. Reports are however inconsistent regarding pedal stiffness.

Edited January 29, 2023 by supercurio

[Funky]

1 hour ago, Paul A said:

 

Some people are gullible for bogus products.

 

eg:  Power Balance is the original brand of hologram bracelets claimed by its manufacturers and vendors to use "holographic technology" to "resonate with and respond to the natural energy field of the body" to increase athletic performance.

The bracelets went on sale in 2007 and had several celebrity endorsements.^[6]

The bracelets became a trend among high school, collegiate, and professional sports teams between 2008 and 2012.

By the end of 2011 the company was reported to be approaching bankruptcy after allegedly having to settle a $57m lawsuit, in the course of which company executives acknowledged that their past claims to improve strength and balance were not backed by science.

 

 

 

Crystal buyers would love this product.

You need to know the customers. TO sell the right product.

 

Anything in the world can be sold to someone. Air in can. Dirty panties. Nfts - People literally are buying NOTHING. (Sometimes i think to myself.. Why the fuck i keep living in this dumb/shitty world.)

Edited January 29, 2023 by Funky

[techyiam]

5 hours ago, supercurio said:

Then there's an extra test that would be interesting, which is to evaluate if the accessory alters the pedal behavior. Some reported that soft pedal mode disappeared and is now hard, which implies that the hardware change messes with the PID tuning of all modes, making them harder

For big heavy wheels, pedal sensitivity / behavior is important. 

Since he is using an EX20S for testing, it would be appropriate if he could compare this aspect between the stock, and the modded case.

 

I can provide a data point in this regard on my Abrams after adding capacitors. 

On the Abrams, there are 3 pedal modes: soft, medium, and strong.

The behavior is still the same as before for me. The same dipping is there. However, the pedal sensitivity and response have improved significantly. Also, the pedal feels stronger. That is, after it dips by the amount it is designed to do according to the pedal mode, the pedal won't dip further after that. But I haven't over torque the wheel since I not that heavy, and I am still using stock pads.

Braking from 50+ km/h to rest is also of interest. In my case, the braking power and modulation improved significantly. Braking modulation is very linear, and the braking force doesn't let up for a constant input all the way to rest. And braking is stronger. Braking is not unlike on a small motorcycle with good brakes. 

Edited January 29, 2023 by techyiam

[Freeforester]

20 hours ago, The Brahan Seer said:

Thats ok, What you described wasn't homeopathy anyway, all good.

Quite so, albeit she (the doctor) was a fully qualified (German) Doctor of Homeopathy. And a bit of a witch to be honest!

[Freeforester]

18 hours ago, Roadpower said:

It's Easier to Fool People Than to Convince Them That They Have Been Fooled.

This is exactly why controls are required to weed out placebo.

In the case of the recent pandemic, Twain’s words ring ever so true, but alas in a bad way.

[supercurio]

9 hours ago, techyiam said:

For big heavy wheels, pedal sensitivity / behavior is important. 

Since he is using an EX20S for testing, it would be appropriate if he could compare this aspect between the stock, and the modded case.

 

I can provide a data point in this regard on my Abrams after adding capacitors. 

Thanks @techyiam for your detailed report.

9 hours ago, techyiam said:

On the Abrams, there are 3 pedal modes: soft, medium, and strong.

The behavior is still the same as before for me. The same dipping is there. However, the pedal sensitivity and response have improved significantly. Also, the pedal feels stronger. That is, after it dips by the amount it is designed to do according to the pedal mode, the pedal won't dip further after that.

What you described here would fit the theory on the hardware change affecting pedal stiffness within the PID loop.

And most wheels have additional algorithms tilting the pedals forward and back, most significantly acceleration & braking assist which were pretty significant on LeaperKim wheels until Sherman S, as well as pedal dipping in turn.

Pedal stiffness is generally appreciated as giving the feeling of the motor being stronger or even limitless. Soft mode on OG Sherman is soft like a noddle tho so if the hardware change messes up the tuning of this feedback loop, some wouldn't like it at all.

9 hours ago, techyiam said:

But I haven't over torque the wheel since I not that heavy, and I am still using stock pads.

Makes sense. Overpowering a wheel without an agressive power pad configuration requires a specific, very intentional technique.

9 hours ago, techyiam said:

Braking from 50+ km/h to rest is also of interest. In my case, the braking power and modulation improved significantly. Braking modulation is very linear, and the braking force doesn't let up for a constant input all the way to rest. And braking is stronger.

There is an apparent contradiction here however on braking power:

On a a self balancing vehicle, as long as the controller isn't overpowered, moving the center of gravity back (leaning) is the only elements determining braking power and modulation.

Since you described above that you never over-torqued it, it is therefore impossible to tell that braking power increased.

However it's indeed possible that if felt stronger if the PID tuning was affected by the hardware change - even if there was no other change. To tell if it's stronger or not requires to measure the deceleration in speed or g-force at the edge of the maximum torque and since the rider lean is what controls that 100% and the risk is to crash by trying to brake to hard, it's a very difficult test to conduct and repeat.

Edited January 30, 2023 by supercurio

[techyiam]

4 hours ago, supercurio said:

To tell if it's stronger or not requires to measure the deceleration in speed or g-force at the edge of the maximum torque and since the rider lean is what controls that 100% and the risk is to crash by trying to brake to hard, it's a very difficult test to conduct and repeat.

I have ridden motorcycles for decades, and one thing many motorcyclists won't compromise on is strong emergency braking, especially me. I improve my bike's braking power, and keep them in top shape, and constantly practice emergency braking. I can definitely tell whether my braking has improved or not by the reduction in braking distance, and the felt negative g-force. 

As for my Abrams, the difference is very significant. It is easier and more confident inspiring to brake on my Abrams at 50+ km/h than on my V12 now.

If you haven't, try stopping on an Abrams with stock pads at 50+ km/h. And don't grab the front lift handle. I don't need nor do I use the front grab handle to brake hard now.

[Tawpie]

10 minutes ago, techyiam said:

front grab handle to brake hard

The handbrake!

(sorry, not on topic, I'll go to bed now)

[techyiam]

2 hours ago, Tawpie said:

The handbrake!

(sorry, not on topic, I'll go to bed now)

Actually, at beginning, the front grab handle was useful because then I could be certain that I won't fall off the back.

I never thought fall off the back was a possibility until I got on the Abrams. 

Edited January 30, 2023 by techyiam

[chanman]

7 hours ago, supercurio said:

On a a self balancing vehicle, as long as the controller isn't overpowered, moving the center of gravity back (leaning) is the only elements determining braking power and modulation

We've established a couple things, 1. The energy stored in capacitors is miniscule, relative to the amount of energy generated during a hard regen brake. Techy's doubling of capacitors adding maybe a few millifarads is only a few joules of effective additional storage, while a hard brake can be 1-2kW sustained for a couple seconds, so multiple thousands of joules. 

2. The quote above. Since the additional energy storage is not a relevant factor, it's entirely rider behavior, possibly aided by pedal response giving more confidence.

[supercurio]

10 hours ago, techyiam said:

I have ridden motorcycles for decades, and one thing many motorcyclists won't compromise on is strong emergency braking, especially me. I improve my bike's braking power, and keep them in top shape, and constantly practice emergency braking. I can definitely tell whether my braking has improved or not by the reduction in braking distance, and the felt negative g-force. 

That's awesome, hard and emergency braking is definitely something to practice. Without, it's common to tense up, resulting is barely any backwards lean and wobble from the unusual stance.

I also practice that, and depending on which wheel and surface, I like to play with the limits of torque or traction result in pedal dipping (asphalt) or the tire spinning backwards, throwing rocks on gravel.

10 hours ago, techyiam said:

As for my Abrams, the difference is very significant. It is easier and more confident inspiring to brake on my Abrams at 50+ km/h than on my V12 now.

The description you made confirm both things: the improvements you observed are caused by

- an increase in skills 💪

- the additional capacitors do not play a role, since you've not been able to overpowered the wheel before and after.

Edited January 30, 2023 by supercurio

[techyiam]

4 minutes ago, supercurio said:

the additional capacitors do not play a role, since you're not been able to overpowered the wheel before and after.

You are absolutely wrong.

There is another factor at play you haven't understood yet.

[supercurio]

11 minutes ago, techyiam said:

You are absolutely wrong.

There is another factor at play you haven't understood yet.

What am I missing? I might be wrong, please explain the physics of it.

My understanding is that the offset in center of gravity against the contact patch must be compensated by acceleration at all time, and that's the only thing that keeps the system balanced, aka rider not falling off the front or the rear.

Therefore lean = acceleration, and nothing else (as long as the controller has enough power to produce the torque needed for the acceleration required)

Edited January 30, 2023 by supercurio

[supercurio]

On 1/29/2023 at 12:42 AM, GoGeorgeGo said:

i dont think i need to go that far, its going to be a cutout test so im not really relying on my opinion or feelings, either it cutsout or it doesnt. 

Can you tell us more about your planned methodology for this cutout test?

I'm concerned that you're planning a trip to the ER, because of course it will cut out. But you're a smart guy so you must have a plan to prevent that happening.. right? Or it would be an overpowering test - not cutout, which means crashing.

Edited January 30, 2023 by supercurio

[RagingGrandpa]

I'm interested in capacitors, and don't really care who you buy them from, so I replied in the "Adding capacitors" thread  

https://forum.electricunicycle.org/topic/27020-adding-capacitors-to-improve-performance/?do=findComment&comment=458100

[GoGeorgeGo]

7 hours ago, supercurio said:

Can you tell us more about your planned methodology for this cutout test?

I'm concerned that you're planning a trip to the ER, because of course it will cut out. But you're a smart guy so you must have a plan to prevent that happening.. right? Or it would be an overpowering test - not cutout, which means crashing.

i will find an incline that the wheel cant climb without cutout and try it with and without the mod. not much injury risk there.

i will find a cluster of aggressive roots from a tree to instantly over torque the wheel over. more injury risk here but still if im ready to fall it shouldnt be to risky. 

then a range style test that wont involve cutout

[supercurio]

1 hour ago, GoGeorgeGo said:

i will find an incline that the wheel cant climb without cutout and try it with and without the mod. not much injury risk there.
i will find a cluster of aggressive roots from a tree to instantly over torque the wheel over. more injury risk here but still if im ready to fall it shouldnt be to risky. 
then a range style test that wont involve cutout

Thanks for sharing, that sounds fairly good then and I agree the risk of injury is reasonably low. This is comforting to read 😄

I'll risk to make some predictions here, knowing you should consider them baseless and invalid to avoid influencing you!
Hidden as spoiler:

Spoiler

• Pedal stiffness is likely but not guaranteed to be increased. Depends on mainboard & wiring. I know you prefer medium mode.
• Low speed incline test: limiting factor would be the phase current firmware parameter, I expect no difference here - unless the hardware modification makes the controller measurements and current-limiting inaccurate.
  If it does it would increase the risk of burning the board due to the higher currents than expected. Would be a risky hack, on S22 more specifically.
• Cluster of aggressive roots: expecting no difference at low speed, potential reduction in beeps at higher speeds if the effect extends beyond pedal stiffness. It's a risky test at PWM threshold speeds.
  I've never overtorqued a wheel on roots unless nearly immobile (did twice on OG Sherman).
  At higher speeds, the momentum keeps the wheel going and you get some air. Hitting roots at speeds sufficient to create a cutout would be dangerous in terms of crash or damaging the rim.
• Range test: expecting no statistically measurable difference. 

 

 

Edited January 31, 2023 by supercurio

[Ben Kim]

On 1/27/2023 at 3:36 PM, GoGeorgeGo said:

does anyone here have a godmod? can someone cut the shrink wrap and let us know what the capacitor ratings are? 

i messaged the website about it but was told they are not divulging that information. which i dont understand, they have 3 different sizes and i am trying to make an informed decision. 

like if a small is 5 farads then i would like to buy one. but if a large is only say 1000uf then i might opt to try building my own.

i do believe the EX20 has an issue with instant power delivery leading to a lower than expected low end torque performance. im hoping a capacitor bank can help with the instant load created in low torque situations. once moving the ex20 has plenty of torque, but a slow speeds its really lacking

im tempted to just buy one to make a video on but 150$ is steep for a product i may be able to make 1000x better for cheaper by sourcing different capacitors. i found some 5.5v 4farad caps that i could produce a 76farad 100v capacitor bank with

160v cap 7500uF.