Begode Rs Resolute, the first EUC using LFP battery chemistry?

[AtlasP]

22 hours ago, Kekafuch said:

Then here’s another rumour …

 

The idea of putting these batteries in one of their larger-capacity wheels makes much more sense--good perf and at least 2kwh battery in a heavier package (in a category where you've already given up on real carry-ability), where you trade crazy range for standard-but-solid range coupled with much safer batteries--I could def see some people going for that.

But of course in Begode fashion the actual choice they make makes no sense--the EX.N, really? The worst suspension wheel, the one they discontinued in favor of working on the Hero? Just why? Why not the EX.N or Hero or Commander or, or, or.. *shakes head* It's like they're literally throwing darts and mixing a matching shell/motor/batteries/what-name-gets-printed-on-it/etc.

Edited December 13, 2021 by AtlasP

[Seba]

On 12/8/2021 at 12:25 PM, Paradox said:

"The battery is at the heart of the electric unicycle and provides power to the motors. For most batteries there is risk of fire if damage, puncture or thermal runaway occurs. For the new Resolute batteries, dangerous fires are avoided. The RS Resolute will NOT use lithium ion technology, instead a new proprietary technology will be used, the details of which will be released in the future."

I am astonished by how much nonsense is spread in our community. First of all, these batteries ARE lithium-ion batteries. The only difference is chemistry used, but the principle of operation is exactly the same and involves the flow of lithium ions between electrodes (hence the name). LFP (also known as LiFePo4) is one of chemistries used for years, just like LCO, NMC etc. Due to omission of cobalt, LFP exhibits different characteristics (with some pros and some cons), but it's still a lithium-ion battery. And no, it's not a propertiary technology.

[Jim_x01]

45 minutes ago, Seba said:

And no, it's not a propertiary technology.

Yep, all AliExpress is flooded by this "proprietary technology" LiFePo4 cells of all shapes sizes and capacities for years.

Begode just buys them on internal China market, puts them into the same cases with slightly modified firmware, and their marketing monkeys name it "proprietary tech" and "non-lithium batteries" even ignoring the "Li" element part in the "LiFePo4" name... The usual story we see with all the products nowadays - the marketing guys rarely know what they are talking about technically... The worst part here is that many of non technically-savvy users of products then continue spreading these gossips as facts, 'cause they expect something "magical" from a "new product"...

It's a good-old safe battery tech, but definitely much lower energy density than currently used cells. But IMHO it still can find its niche with those concerned about fire-safety. I just hope Begode would not completely move all models to these "new" batteries, but would leave both types for different users' needs...

Edited December 13, 2021 by Jim_x01

[supercurio]

Good point @Seba, I changed the thread title to reflect that even if LFP, that's still "lithium ion"

[RagingGrandpa]

And technically not "the first wheel" - Onewheel+ and OWV1 used LFP

[Kekafuch]

With their current 900wh packs line up (RS, ExN, Monster), Begode should just supply DIY kits to the public (at good prices) and support dealers in assembling spec wheels. Barrier to entry will limit the Market to those who know what they are getting themselves into.

 

For the consumer market, make a safe 14”, 16”, 18” wheel and keep the line up simple. 
 

 

[supercurio]

13 hours ago, RagingGrandpa said:

And technically not "the first wheel" - Onewheel+ and OWV1 used LFP

 haha didn't know that! Fixed 

[Chriull]

1 hour ago, supercurio said:

 haha didn't know that! Fixed 

And actually neither the first EUC.

(?Some?) solowheels had A123 LiFePo4 cells.. Googling for "solowheel lifepo4" finds old sites still showing this... 

Afair also the Uniwheel ?wanted? to use LiFePo4.

[supercurio]

Ohh good job with the historical research.

I need help with choosing an accurate title 

[Paradox]

7 minutes ago, supercurio said:

Ohh good job with the historical research.

I need help with choosing an accurate title 

"Begode Resolute Trades range for safer battery tech"

[Planemo]

30 minutes ago, Paradox said:

"Begode Resolute Trades range for safer battery tech"

Agreed, but this move by Begode does seem to sound like using a hammer to crack a walnut (or maybe more accurately, a knee-jerk, quickly attainable response to the company being crucified over recent fires).

Theres an awful lot of Li-Ion 18650's/21700's out there that aren't bursting into flames.

I would suggest that their time may have been better spent on re-designing the old BMS/motherboard hardware and pack manufacturing process rather than simply changing the power source.

[yoos]

2 minutes ago, Planemo said:

Theres an awful lot of Li-Ion 18650's/21700's out there that aren't bursting into flames.

That's just because begode isn't using them  

[RagingGrandpa]

7 hours ago, supercurio said:

Ohh good job with the historical research.

I need help with choosing an accurate title 

Title's fine.
(We just can't resist adding our $0.02, mea culpa)

[Freeforester]

Sorry to derail or hijack, but apropos battery safety, this may fall into either the ‘quick - call Begode!’ or ‘pass the salt’ categories, depending on just how real the tech is; still, they seem to be trying:

disclaimer - no fact checking has been done, make of it what you will, thanks.

[RagingGrandpa]

17 hours ago, Freeforester said:

[BYD "Blade Battery"]

no fact checking has been done, make of it what you will

You asked for it

Just another LFP cell and another clickbait video...

Edited December 23, 2021 by RagingGrandpa

[shellac]

On 12/12/2021 at 1:57 PM, AtlasP said:

While obviously safer batteries are a major value and marketing asset, I'm having trouble determining the intended audience for this particular configuration of size (particularly weight) and range.

• Surely the majority of the core Begode crowd aren't going to buy a 1kwh wheel at this point.
• Those outside the core Begode crowd and concerned about safety already have a range of options by other brands with minimal fire risk, all of which have far greater range-per-weight.

 

So I think I can answer this. This Resolute wheel with the LFP battery should theoretically be the absolute safest wheel on the market in terms of fire risk, even more so than KS and IM. If you look over at the fire thread, the vast majority of fires are from Begode wheels but there are a few IM and KS stragglers in there. Even with the best engineering those wheels will always remain at some small risk due to the nature of the battery and the chance for physical damage causing a fire. 

The Resolute should have a fire risk of zero. 

So this wheel would be good for someone who desires a high performance wheel and has zero tolerance for any kind of fire risk and isn’t planning on long rides, and is therefore fine with the more limited range. Probably a niche market but it does exist. 

[Chriull]

5 minutes ago, shellac said:

The Resolute should have a fire risk of zero

Should. Maybe. Told by begode. The LFP batteries have (about) no fire risk, noone knows if the begode wheels with lfp batteries will have no fire risk, too.

As (about) noone knows the real cause of the behode fires till know.

21700 li ion cells can easily burn, but (about) only with begode wheels. So i'd see till now no reason to blame the cells. I see more reason to blame begodes design.

I'd be much more comforable with a major design change than blaming the cells...

[EMA]

Begode wheels are also the most abused...RS tumbling everywhere anytime 

[Chriull]

15 minutes ago, EMA said:

Begode wheels are also the most abused...RS tumbling everywhere anytime 

Yes, that would be a little bit more comprehesible, but even unused and not misused ones start burning...

[Unventor]

32 minutes ago, Chriull said:

Should. Maybe. Told by begode. The LFP batteries have (about) no fire risk, noone knows if the begode wheels with lfp batteries will have no fire risk, too.

As (about) noone knows the real cause of the behode fires till know.

21700 li ion cells can easily burn, but (about) only with begode wheels. So i'd see till now no reason to blame the cells. I see more reason to blame begodes design.

I'd be much more comforable with a major design change than blaming the cells...

I think that is a reasonable way to put it.

[Boostnsvt]

I really don’t understand why everyone assumes the range will be lower. With the potential discharge rates it highly dependent on the way you ride. If the Lipo batteries are really good (like 120c high) then it might change the range, however just like the lion batteries the total WH exponentially decreases with the draw, it’s just that the Lipo should have a higher efficiency because the draw is handled better with the inherently high discharge rates. As a result the extremes should be that much greater. I predict you would be able to get as high as of 40mi (80km) or as low as 25mi (45km).

[Paradox]

21 minutes ago, Boostnsvt said:

I predict you would be able to get as high as of 40mi (80km) or as low as 25mi (45km).

Your conversion is incorrect.  40 miles is 64km and 25 miles is 40km

[chanman]

 

On 12/27/2021 at 2:49 PM, Boostnsvt said:

 Lipo should have a higher efficiency because the draw is handled better with the inherently high discharge rates

Potentially, but the same current draw is actually almost twice the discharge rate on this smaller capacity battery, although the step up in voltage does give us a little extra efficiency. The potential difference in efficiency just isn't great enough to make up for the gap in capacity, any claims of getting similar range as the original RS is incredibly optimistic IMO.

Oh, and the extra 5-10kg doesn't help either.

Edited December 28, 2021 by chanman
Weight

[Boostnsvt]

The range is listed as 31-49 miles (50-80km), so I think it’s a combination of the high voltage and high discharge rates or Lipo batteries, that create a balance in operability and efficiency. It’s mainly an assumption because I don’t have a good understanding on how voltage effects lipo batteries, but the large difference in range does align with what I described earlier.

 

I preordered one yesterday so I’ll be anxious and hopeful.

[RagingGrandpa]

On 12/27/2021 at 5:49 PM, Boostnsvt said:

why everyone assumes the range will be lower

This is why:

On 12/7/2021 at 1:20 PM, RagingGrandpa said:

the reduction is capacity dominates the story.

• Li-Ion 18650GA delivers about 75% of its "label capacity" for an EUC, before tiltback voltage (end of useful capacity).
• LFP 18650 delivers about 85% of its "label capacity" in a similar theoretical EUC. But the label capacity is less than half of the Li-Ion 18650.

So to get a 10% bump in 'discharge efficiency,' you gave up half of the original rating. It's a net loss.
(And no surprise, as LFP has been on the market for decades now.)