Inmotion V13 Speculation

[meepmeepmayer]

6 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

Guys, lets try not to confuse the matters by using incorrect terminology.

I know self-balancing means self-balancing, but there also temporal aspects here. The wheel is oscillating around a stable status in reality, which gives wiggle room. Also the rider reacts, even more wiggle room.

I'm saying that because I can't believe the braking differences are only due to wheel geometry. Someone would have built a quick-braking geometry with a big tire wheel. The zippyness wouldn't so obviously go from small tire (mten) -> big tire (Monster and friends). There would be some variation at least, right?

If the 134V Master feels more zippy than the 100V Hero, then I assume the firmware limits (or rather higher power delivery with the same current limits) are what makes the difference. So I'm assuming braking (regeneration) is limited by firmware, too.

Anyways, off topic stuff. I hope Inmotion shows a better braking video soon... with better braking, ideally

[mrelwood]

2 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

The wheel is oscillating around a stable status in reality, which gives wiggle room.

Not really. The wheel must provide the exact amount of acceleration that's required to stay upright, at all times. If it fails to do so, the first thing that happens is that the pedals dip right away.

2 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

I'm saying that because I can't believe the braking differences are only due to wheel geometry.

I can't comment on others' beliefs, only that "braking power" in the electronical sense is missing the mark completely. The V13 could have a 200 000 W continuous controller, but the braking distance wouldn't get a single inch shorter. Unless you are heavy enough to actually overpower the wheel, which is a practical impossibility when braking on the V13.

2 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Someone would have built a quick-braking geometry with a big tire wheel. The zippyness wouldn't so obviously go from small tire (mten) -> big tire (Monster and friends). There would be some variation at least, right?

 You're right, there is! It's called a "riding mode setting". And since different manufacturers have different power curves, there are small differences between wheels regardless of the setting. Pad placement and pedal height (in relation to the axle height) also play a role.

In all these though, they affect the physics of the braking situation, not the electronics, so increasing the max power output wouldn't change matters.

2 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

If the 134V Master feels more zippy than the 100V Hero, then I assume the firmware limits (or rather higher power delivery with the same current limits) are what makes the difference.

It isn't though. Feeling "zippy" is of course a very subjective term, and doesn't describe any specific feature or a measure.

But think about what happens when the wheel limits the power to the motor in any situation. You accelerate fast enough to require 5000 watts of power to keep the wheel upright. If the wheel limits the power and only provides 4800W, the pedals dip, because you are leaning way beyond the axle in a physically unstable position. You can't limit the power without pedals dipping. If you would, overlean crashes couldn't happen at all, could they?

 

2 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

So I'm assuming braking (regeneration) is limited by firmware, too.

The braking shown in the video looks stronger than what regeneration alone could provide, so I'm sure the wheel uses actual accelerating power for the braking as well.

[Supakatt]

There’s also a knobby tire on that wheel when testing braking as well.

[rebeuc]

15 hours ago, techyiam said:

Inmotion on Facebook has released a video show casing the V13 braking power.

https://fb.watch/fGhTec6fGQ/

I found a longer version of this video on youtube which has some other perspectives of accelerating and braking, though the gauge overlay is a bit strange:

 

[meepmeepmayer]

Kind of pointless from the first person perspective.

Is it just me, or is Inmotion really good at not showing or telling people what they actually want to know about the V13?

[wstuart]

48 minutes ago, rebeuc said:

I found a longer version of this video on youtube which has some other perspectives of accelerating and braking, though the gauge overlay is a bit strange:

 

Looks like it takes a while to stop...... which makes sense with a wheel that heavy

[rebeuc]

13 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Is it just me, or is Inmotion really good at not showing or telling people what they actually want to know about the V13?

Yeah, and why in the overlay show the gauge in the red at 2500 watts; isn't this supposed to be a 4500 watt motor that peaks at 10kw?

[Bizra6ot]

15 minutes ago, wstuart said:

Looks like it takes a while to stop

To speed up as well 

[techyiam]

3 hours ago, rebeuc said:

I found a longer version of this video on youtube which has some other perspectives of accelerating and braking, though the gauge overlay is a bit strange

I think it is good that they are sharing these videos at this stage of development. We now know where they are at with the testing of the prototypes, the stage their prototypes are at, and their video capturing capability. I hope they will continue to improve on these fronts. I think it is better for them to learn about potential buyers expectations now than later at the preproduction stage when they send out demo units to dealers.

Here and at Facebook, viewers were disappointed by the long stopping distance shown in the video. And regarding top speed, the rider did not go over 74 km/h. Hopefully, in the near future, Inmotion can show potential customers that the V13 is capable of much more. Inmotion needs to know people will be riding wheels such as the V13 on roads in traffic. They need testers who are experienced motorcycle riders too, to test the V13 in traffic on main roads.

Begode has started a good trend in their video of the EX30. It was only at night for now. Hopefully, they will do one during the day with more traffic.

When riding on main roads surrounded by cars, it would become obvious what performance capabilities are required, especially for braking. Cars in front can suddenly brake for various common reasons, at 50+ km/h. If the rider cannot scrub off enough speed, it is equivalent to falling off a couple stories high or higher building.

Edited September 21, 2022 by techyiam

[rebeuc]

37 minutes ago, techyiam said:

If the rider cannot scrub off enough speed, it is equivalent to falling off a couple stories high or higher building.

Reference to the following thread for those who may not be aware:

 

[meepmeepmayer]

@techyiamYou and your extremely sensible arguments... again You're completely right. And maybe indeed the V13 isn't as finished as we think.

But people have expectations when a shiny new wheel is announced and then the first small bits of media come out. Inmotion, just show it going 90 and doing a sweet, hard, powerful braking! That's what you advertise, fast and powerful! Not random "Hehehe look at this vague thing you don't care about" videos.

So even with your very good argument that IM are just showing the development so people can give feedback, it is a bit frustrating.

[Lets Do Science]

31 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Maybe indeed the V13 isn't as finished as we think.

The wheel will be ready to ship from China end of October, Inmotion are far more along than people here think. 

Edited September 21, 2022 by Lets Do Science
word

[GothamMike]

11 hours ago, Cerbera said:

I was more concerned with the fact he apparently had to grab the front, and then hang almost completely off the back of it to get it to slow down, and even then it took a VERY long time to happen.

No pedal tilt. Nada. Let's hope they use taller and heavier test riders in the future.

[techyiam]

4 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

So even with your very good argument that IM are just showing the development so people can give feedback, it is a bit frustrating.

Understandable. 

At the same time, Inmotion is making an effort to start some form of communication with its customers base, and potential customers, during the very last phase of development, just before preproduction. Inmotion seem to read Facebook and this forum plus other social media.

I think the problem with frustration has more to do with the early leaks of the V13 info snippets. The wait has become too long. If Inmotion did a Begode, that is no early teaser nor leaks, just announce the new wheel when it is the right time, then people may not feel the wait is as long.

 

4 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

And maybe indeed the V13 isn't as finished as we think

I think it basically done, just some fine tuning. I think they will be able to figure out how to make the V13 brake competitively with wheels in its class, like the Master Pro, or other 22" wheels.

I think Inmotion is trying something new, and it will take time until they find the sweet spot.

This could be a good thing once they get it right. It is better than just blindly release, and hope for the best.

Look at the Veteran Abrams. They build it, but no one came.

 

Having said that, should Inmotion is using these early videos to promote preorder sales, I think they may have shot themselves in the foot. But if they are wanting to gauge potential customers' expectations and preferences, I think it could be good thing.

 

Talking about preorder sales promotional video, look no further than the EX30 night riding on main roads video. I thought that was pretty cool.

Edited September 22, 2022 by techyiam

[MrMonoWheel]

Anyone who thinks inmotion is still testing prototypes or is in the pre production stages are very wrong. The units they are riding are the finished product, the factories have been churning these out and they are being boxed and loaded onto cargo ships headed for our ports. Anything from this point on will be revisions in batch 2 or software tweaks. As far as everyone is concerned the wheel is finished.

 

This is just my 2 cents though.

[Rawnei]

7 minutes ago, Unicycle Santa said:

Anyone who thinks inmotion is still testing prototypes or is in the pre production stages are very wrong. The units they are riding are the finished product, the factories have been churning these out and they are being boxed and loaded onto cargo ships headed for our ports. Anything from this point on will be revisions in batch 2 or software tweaks. As far as everyone is concerned the wheel is finished.

 

This is just my 2 cents though.

You're thinking of Begode. 😉

[techyiam]

8 minutes ago, Unicycle Santa said:

The units they are riding are the finished product,

How can you tell?

[Robse]

22 minutes ago, Unicycle Santa said:

Anyone who thinks inmotion is still testing prototypes or is in the pre production stages are very wrong. The units they are riding are the finished product, the factories have been churning these out and they are being boxed and loaded onto cargo ships headed for our ports. Anything from this point on will be revisions in batch 2 or software tweaks. As far as everyone is concerned the wheel is finished.

 

This is just my 2 cents though.

Source?

[meepmeepmayer]

11 hours ago, techyiam said:

Look at the Veteran Abrams. They build it, but no one came.

The Abrams wasn't the expected new speed king, plus had a "smaller" battery than max specs that wasn't alleviated by being speed king, plus had crazy starting problems. No wonder it didn't sell too much. It would have needed a 3600Wh battery or to be 5+mph faster than the Monster Pro (+ no technical issues), then it would have sold a lot, I'm sure.

The Inmotion V13 will have going for it:

• Quality (not being Begode)
• Very high speed in reality (but probably beaten by the Master Pro or EX30)
• Barely competitive battery size.
• Heavy! Price!

Hard to say how popular it will be, but I think they have a different audience than Begode. People who trade max specs against better everything else.

Edited September 22, 2022 by meepmeepmayer
English

[MrEUCMan]

I went for the V13 because:

1. I am not planning on using it in a race, agility to me is not a priority.

2. I need a wheel that can cruise comfortably at high speeds with stability and reliability.

3. I need range, even at 25 to 30 mph cruising speed, I need at least 50 miles with room.

4. I don't need to be the fastest or the most aggressive. Matter of fact, my V13 will probably never go over 35mph.

V13 seems to fit all these criteria.

[techyiam]

15 hours ago, Unicycle Santa said:

The units they are riding are the finished product,

15 hours ago, techyiam said:

How can you tell?

I reason I asked was because I was curious as to whether you know something that the public doesn't, since Inmotion themselves on Facebook say the following officially: 

Quote

Product: #Challenger (engineering prototype)

Edited September 22, 2022 by techyiam

[Paul g]

3 minutes ago, techyiam said:

I reason I asked is because I was curious as to whether you know something that the public doesn't, since Inmotion themselves on Facebook say the following officially: 

That thing looks gorgeous. Pretty bad I don’t trust InMotion engineering skills and doubt the easiness of repairing their wheels.

[Supakatt]

Has anyone found what street tires will fit? From the pic it’s 3.00-16 but I haven’t found anything.

Edited September 22, 2022 by Supakatt

[onizukagto]

2 hours ago, Paul g said:

That thing looks gorgeous. Pretty bad I don’t trust InMotion engineering skills and doubt the easiness of repairing their wheels.

If you don't trust Inmotion's engineering skill.... 

How can you trust any other EUC manufacturers?  

I mean, compared to inmotion engineering, they all probably looks a bit sketchy. Innit. 

Might as well just ride a scooter and be done with it. 

Maybe an inmotion scooter? 

14 hours ago, Unicycle Santa said:

Anyone who thinks inmotion is still testing prototypes or is in the pre production stages are very wrong. The units they are riding are the finished product, the factories have been churning these out and they are being boxed and loaded onto cargo ships headed for our ports. Anything from this point on will be revisions in batch 2 or software tweaks. As far as everyone is concerned the wheel is finished.

 

No. But you're not wrong. 

Until they start selling the 2nd batch, the first batch is still considered QC version. 

But it's all marketing jargon cos inmotion deliberately priced and worded the release as such. It's just being honest really. I wish other product markets did the same. 

Hardware improvements will appear in the second batch, which are deemed officially by Inmotion as "production" as indicated by the price hike. 

It's actually a smart marketing move to be honest, you are trading honesty with reality. 

First batch at best, will always have aspects that don't match intended audience or worse, have flaws that will be exposed in real life scenarios. 

Hopefully not as spectacular as the S22, which is arguably the best time to find a fatal flaw, at the very beginning before any unit has been sold. As opposed to Begode models that like to wait a few months to gain your trust before it tries to burn your house and family. 

[rebeuc]

Here's a good suspension workout. Not full-size steps, but this is the first time I have really seen this much of the suspension movements.