Inmotion V13 Speculation

[Forwardnbak]

4 minutes ago, techyiam said:

Inmotion Global on Facebook shared the below screenshot of the onboard display of a V13. Although, the max speed is 86 km/h, too bad they did not share the actual speed run itself.  Look at the average speed over 30 km's of travel.

https://www.facebook.com/InmotionWorld/photos/gm.2920682768226680/5403789169703178/?__cft__[0]=AZUuYbMingUWvYWdYzqk0nvgyRDDSmCnkra2b4LAeXmi7I_e6kD0WhyazqWQG4BPTRPmDSmExNteoEuLRhHKPwfDX6wRrq6oS3iqyIXQOJboDceroI3Bd9HfKR-Smuw4TCndaODfTZblS3OM_-K9zOJf4KtL4-O8OooQoCsj2WFUqM7m81rTdxUpwaiUixO-rwk&__cft__[1]=AZUuYbMingUWvYWdYzqk0nvgyRDDSmCnkra2b4LAeXmi7I_e6kD0WhyazqWQG4BPTRPmDSmExNteoEuLRhHKPwfDX6wRrq6oS3iqyIXQOJboDceroI3Bd9HfKR-Smuw4TCndaODfTZblS3OM_-K9zOJf4KtL4-O8OooQoCsj2WFUqM7m81rTdxUpwaiUixO-rwk&__tn__=EH-R]-R

was just noticing that

19kph avg for 30km - then full lean.

Video please. 

Just now, Forwardnbak said:

was just noticing that

19kph avg for 30km - then full lean.

Video please. 

 

[rebeuc]

3 hours ago, UtahRider said:

I haven’t seen anything great with this wheel yet nor have I seen anything particularly bad. I’m just meh with it so far even though I pre-ordered it. I think I’m starting to lean towards the Sherm-S for smooth suspension and dare I admit the Extreme Bull Pro now.

I'm witholding judgement until we at LEAST get review units out.

Just out of curiosity, as I was not into the EUC scene with the launch of the prior Inmotion wheels, but how similar does this launch seem to be going compared with those? (V11/V12 era?); is it similar in terms of not having review units out this close to the expected launch date? What about with the weird facebook posts that have relatively little substance?

[Robse]

14 hours ago, Jens Ronnedal said:

 

The only riders going "fast" in this video is the one with the bikehelmet

[jimjam.nyc]

That Facebook snip looks like a teaser edit for the real video that is coming out.

I feel like wait for the actual video before thinking there is deception going on. 

Sure it's a bit of a weird way to do things, but maybe there is no intent to mislead here?

Just playing devils advocate to this convo. I am not getting a v13 or even contemplating it, but I doubt they are going to boldly lie about the top speed of the wheel. It will be immediately known to testers and customers.

[onizukagto]

9 hours ago, rebeuc said:

I'm witholding judgement until we at LEAST get review units out.

Just out of curiosity, as I was not into the EUC scene with the launch of the prior Inmotion wheels, but how similar does this launch seem to be going compared with those? (V11/V12 era?); is it similar in terms of not having review units out this close to the expected launch date? What about with the weird facebook posts that have relatively little substance?

Is you are to compare this product launch pr campaign... Its actually the first for inmotion and for any EUC Manufacturer really. Not Begode, not ninebot, not kingsong etc. 

It's actually really surprising with the V13 product launch, no other manufacturer has done official speed videos, breakdown of tech in response to active feedback from the community....

So far the "negative" and "comparison" posts of the official videos and images to other products have been post-product release and by owners. 

Nothing officially by the manufacturer, nothing that that can be said that the manufacturer had any confident to put their neck on the line and stand behind its product. 

On one hand i can understand the scepticalism, always better to be pessimitic and not be disappointed. 

I guess it just does how desperate the community wants a euc manufacturer that can be confident and believe in itself and ultimately trust. 

So, no matter what the real product performance and specs is like, (as much as I like the current situation, there are much ambiguity in some aspects, which I can understand from a legal point of view)

You have to give inmotion, Stella of balls for pushing the transparency here. 

Sadly, I also don't expect the other manufacturer to step up their game, they don't need to put their neck on the chopping board, they have nothing to be confident or want/need to stake its risk it's name for products they don't believe in. The riders who buy those eucs know the familiar risk, the tech, the quality... Things that don't matter to them. 

[techyiam]

It is probably not prudent for Euc manufacturers to boast top speeds of their latest and greatest flagship wheels in any case. Let the owners do that instead.

Aside from legal ramifications, there are numerous factors that can reduce a safe top speed on euc's.

They can boast free spin speed, maximum rated motor power, and maximum battery discharge rate.

They can state a tested top speed, and the conditions under which it was conducted. 

For example, 70 km/h tested top speed on a smooth level road with no head or tail wind, and full battery.

[techyiam]

 Here is the longer video from which the top speed run video was trimmed from.

 

[rebeuc]

 

[rebeuc]

Wow, look how quickly it spins up with no load. (Compare this with the teaser/launch trailer where they first showed us how fast it could spin with a very slow ramp-up)

 

[Lets Do Science]

28 minutes ago, rebeuc said:

Wow, look how quickly it spins up with no load. (Compare this with the teaser/launch trailer where they first showed us how fast it could spin with a very slow ramp-up)

 

 

[techyiam]

Here is an example of someone making a 85+ km/h high speed run.

 

Edited September 17, 2022 by techyiam

[mrelwood]

14 hours ago, techyiam said:

It is probably not prudent for Euc manufacturers to boast top speeds of their latest and greatest flagship wheels in any case. Let the owners do that instead.

Aside from legal ramifications, there are numerous factors that can reduce a safe top speed on euc's.

They can boast free spin speed, maximum rated motor power, and maximum battery discharge rate.

They can state a tested top speed, and the conditions under which it was conducted. 

For example, 70 km/h tested top speed on a smooth level road with no head or tail wind, and full battery.

It's different with wheels without any limits versus ones with a hard coded top speed limit. The firmware lets the rider ride at 90km/h, and not any faster. Tail wind, downhill, rider weight (within reason), etc don't affect the limit. The top speed is 90km/h, period.

On the V13 the top speed is at 64% of the free spin speed. I think that's a generous safety margin.

[MrMonoWheel]

9 hours ago, mrelwood said:

It's different with wheels without any limits versus ones with a hard coded top speed limit. The firmware lets the rider ride at 90km/h, and not any faster. Tail wind, downhill, rider weight (within reason), etc don't affect the limit. The top speed is 90km/h, period.

On the V13 the top speed is at 64% of the free spin speed. I think that's a generous safety margin.

This is why I pre ordered the v13 instead of the other wheels coming out. I'd absolutely love the Sherman S but for the price I'd want a 55mph wheel. The Sherman S has a margin of 17mph between it's rated top speed and it's free spin speed, whereas the v13 has a 30mph margin. That makes me think that not only will be v13 be safer at it's top speed, but it will be able to sustain it long term regardless of conditions.

On top of that, the speed limits in my town are 45 on side roads. Riding the Sherman S at those speeds gives me a 17mph margin, whereas riding the v13 at 45mph gives me 40mph of margin. 

On my v11 I can ride well into the beeps and the tilt back is strong enough to damn well make sure I don't go further than it wants me to. 

Yeah there are things about the v13 that are not as good as the competition (weight and aesthetics in my case) but the one thing I am confident in compared to other wheels is that it has the least chance to shit out on me going 55mph.

[techyiam]

18 hours ago, mrelwood said:

On the V13 the top speed is at 64% of the free spin speed. I think that's a generous safety margin.

Tell that to Mark Yu on Facebook. He claims to have ridden a V13 with the suspension removed to its top speed. He said he hadn't reached top speed on a V13 with suspension. He has not share video proof of his top speed runs so far though.

 

18 hours ago, mrelwood said:

It's different with wheels without any limits versus ones with a hard coded top speed limit. The firmware lets the rider ride at 90km/h, and not any faster. Tail wind, downhill, rider weight (within reason), etc don't affect the limit. The top speed is 90km/h, period.

On Facebook, some representative from Inmotion said that the 90 km/h maximum speed limit is not a firmware limit setting. This person explained that a light rider may exceed 90 km/h, and a heavy rider may not reach 90 km/h. 

IMO, maximum allowable speed limit set in firmware should not be showcased in promotional material as top speed.

 

Edited September 19, 2022 by techyiam

[mrelwood]

 

40 minutes ago, techyiam said:

He said he hadn't reached top speed on a V13 with suspension.

That doesn't tell us much. WHY didn't he reach the top speed? Too scared? Not enough leverage from the higher pedal height? Tilt-back?

 

40 minutes ago, techyiam said:

On Facebook, some representative from Inmotion said that the 90 km/h maximum speed limit is not a firmware limit setting.

Perhaps (s)he meant that you can't adjust that setting.

40 minutes ago, techyiam said:

This person explained that a light rider may exceed 90 km/h, and a heavy rider may not reach 90 km/h.

If the V13 has a hard coded tilt-back speed of 90km/h, a free spin speed of 140km/h, and a controller capable of 10KW of output, the rider must be darn heavy and have a large frontal surface area to trigger any other limits such as current, PWM, etc. We can be pretty sure that it won't be overleaned too easily at those speeds either.

40 minutes ago, techyiam said:

IMO, maximum allowable speed limit set in firmware should not be showcased in promotional material as top speed.

Why not? The maximum speed you can ride the wheel makes the most sense. Just like with cars and motorcycles that are speed limited, of course it's a relevant piece of information.

[yoos]

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

On Facebook, some representative from Inmotion said that the 90 km/h maximum speed limit is not a firmware limit setting. This person explained that a light rider may exceed 90 km/h, and a heavy rider may not reach 90 km/h. 

The second part sound quite odd. Unless one of the V13 innovations is a weight sensor, I don't see how weight is an obstacle to max speed (on a wheel with presumably generous current and power headroom). If anything, heavier riders have an easier time torqueing a wheel to achieve a higher speed (they exert more torque with less agressive lean), while their aerodynamic drag is not that much more. The heavier rider will have less headroom at the same speed though. In other words, a heavier rider will have a lower safe top speed, but that's relevant for begode wheels where the rider is free to push the limit, while inmotions (and kingsongs) approach has always been to guarantee the same top speed (hard-coded with tiltback) for all riders (within weight limit spec) by reserving enough headroom (and therefore the IM,KS top speeds are conservative reinforcing begodes image as the performance brand).

Edited September 19, 2022 by yoos
slight rewording for clarification

[techyiam]

38 minutes ago, yoos said:

The second part sound quite odd. Unless one of the V13 innovations is a weight sensor, I don't see how weight is an obstacle to max speed (on a wheel with presumably generous current and power headroom). If anything, heavier riders have an easier time torqueing a wheel to achieve a higher speed (they exert more torque with less agressive lean), while their aerodynamic drag is not that much more. The heavier rider will have less headroom at the same speed though. In other words, a heavier rider will have a lower safe top speed, but that's relevant for begode wheels where the rider is free to push the limit, while inmotions (and kingsongs) approach has always been to guarantee the same top speed (hard-coded with tiltback) for all riders (within weight limit spec) by reserving enough headroom (and therefore the IM,KS top speeds are conservative reinforcing begodes image as the performance brand).

I am just the messenger. My take is that the Inmotion representative wanted to stress that there is no maximum speed setting in firmware.

[MrMonoWheel]

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

I am just the messenger. My take is that the Inmotion representative wanted to stress that there is no maximum speed setting in firmware.

Man that's weird cause inmotion always sets a hard coded speed limit. It's just how their wheels work. I doubt they decided to remove this on the fastest most powerful wheel they've ever made.

 

[techyiam]

1 hour ago, Unicycle Santa said:

Man that's weird cause inmotion always sets a hard coded speed limit. It's just how their wheels work. I doubt they decided to remove this on the fastest most powerful wheel they've ever made.

 

I guess it depends on your definition of speed limit.

On my V12, there is no precise maximum limit on speed, per se. It will start tilting back near a particular range of speeds, depending on load. For example, tilt back start at a lower speed going uphill, and higher going downhill. Maximum speed is also lower at lower battery level. My Begode T3 does something similar. 

[mrelwood]

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

I guess it depends on your definition of speed limit.

On my V12, there is no precise maximum limit on speed, per se. It will start tilting back near a particular range of speeds, depending on load. For example, tilt back start at a lower speed going uphill, and higher going downhill. Maximum speed is also lower at lower battery level. My Begode T3 does something similar. 

Inmotions so far have had several triggers for the tilt-back:

- A fixed top speed limit. Fe. 50/55km/h on V11, depending on the "fancy mode" setting. Decreases when the battery gets below 30% or so.

- Overpower tilt-back. This has varied between firmwares, and I don't know where it currently is with the V11. If the wheel uses more than xxxx watts of power -> tilt-back. Decreases as the battery depletes.

- Low battery tilt-back.

- Overvoltage tilt-back.

The announced top speed is what can normally be achieved when riding on flat ground, and can't be exceeded in any circumstances. Except momentarily if the rider tries to push  through the tilt-back, which gets into the Darwin awards territory.

 

I wouldn't get too hung up on the specifics of what an unknown Inmotion employee has said about the top speed with most probably lacking English skills. The community has examined the wheels' behaviours pretty precisely, and we tend to know much more about the wheels, for example about the voltage limits, Bluetooth protocols etc, than what the manufacturers have revealed.

[HEC]

16 hours ago, yoos said:

Unless one of the V13 innovations is a weight sensor, I don't see how weight is an obstacle to max speed

No need for weight sensors, wheel is measuring the power used to keep rider balanced. Heavier, taller or wider rider will require more power to both balance as well as move thus maximum reachable speed (with sufficient safety margin) will be automatically lower than for someone lighter and with less air resistance. Other factors will be indeed temperature, wind speed and direction or inclination (or even battery level / voltage) , which will all also influence greatly the maximum reachable speed even for the same rider.

[Unventor]

About top speed, since the wheel has to ship to customers one thing is what Inmotion might set as limits on first batch. But that can change once they analyse more ride data from endusers/customers. 

Also in general pushing a wheel fast to it top limits will trigger a early response tilt back to be able to react before the EUC is pushed beyond its torque output to maintain balance. 

As for weight sensors, this is pure speculation from early roumers on adjustable suspension. If the suspension is controlled to have a set default it could be sensors detect the weight by offset from no load to suspension vs rider standing on the pedals. If they had some sort electrical/magnetic adjustable suspension to calibrate from rider off set to weight vs no load. 

Still some sort of review preferable from different reviews could cast some lights. More reviews means more to see if want is say is pr or holds water for many riders. 

[onizukagto]

Just got a notification about another Begode battery recall (again) by the dealer (never by manufacturer). 

Makes me realise how normal it is, to immediately think its a begode or maybe another kingsong. 

Sure, all li-ion batteries can catch fire, but... Does it have to be so normal? I'm hoping the V13 battery tech will make inmotion wheel so boring, user induced cut-outs will be the only drama we get. 

And if "Begode" is the "best selling eucs", can they at least use all that "profit" and actually employ some real engineers and put some real technology inside? 

I don't care if they "copy" inmotion technology, do it, it means they were forced to tech-up. Then I hope inmotion lawyer up and sue them. (cos shanking a fellow CCP bro, has consequences). 

Honestly, it's 2022, we should be in flying unicycles on the moon by now. 

Sorry for the rant. Delete if off-topic or something. 

[Rawnei]

1 hour ago, onizukagto said:

Just got a notification about another Begode battery recall (again) by the dealer (never by manufacturer). 

Can you be more specific, who is recalling what?

[Forwardnbak]

1 hour ago, Rawnei said:

Can you be more specific, who is recalling what?

I think he means this