Inmotion V13 Speculation

[Paradox]

11 hours ago, techyiam said:

It is weird. Apparently, someone posted that eWheels is making an exception for the Master Pro, and not use Li-Tech battery packs for this wheel.

This info in on the eWheels website.

https://www.ewheels.com/product/begode-masterpro-1000-deposit/

 

[The Brahan Seer]

Something that has been bothering me for some time is the implementation of submerging the battery compartments with sealant.

I understand its a magic solution that dissipates heat and keeps everything together and stops the cells from getting upset but...

My concerns are 1) how will this impact the expansion required between each cell, 2) implications of creating issues between each cell making clean contact with each connector or other issues. 3) how easy or hard it would be to access the cells within the battery by technicians. 

Has anyone else in the Lithium Ion battery industry produced a battery using this methodology?

Has inmotion spent the time accessing potential issues? or am i worrying about nothing?

[Tawpie]

1 hour ago, The Brahan Seer said:

Something that has been bothering me for some time is the implementation of submerging the battery compartments with sealant.

I'm far from an expert but did spend many years in portable power, both primary (non-rechargeable) and secondary (rechargeable) cells. All Li based (LiMgO2 primaries, ion and poly secondaries).

It would be a mistake to "pot" the cells in an inflexible sealant because as you noted, the cells will want to expand slightly. Under normal conditions cylindrical cells don't expand much, but they expand 'some', mostly during charging. If something goes wrong inside the cell, cylindrical cells have a mechanical pressure relief valve at the top that will break and the cell should vent those cloudy clouds of vapor that ignite explosively if they're allowed to collect (similar to a thermobaric weapon). You want to be sure to allow these gasses some way to get out of the battery case and dissipate or you're building a bomb.

Potting the assembly in something solid like epoxy would be a very very bad thing, and I highly doubt IM will do that. (if for no other reason that potting is relatively expensive and we all know about cost control. potting is also heavy)

Instead, I suspect that they'll coat it with a flexible material, something along the lines of silicon but more likely an acrylic (cheaper and easier to use, also repairable and more likely to fracture to let gasses escape from a venting cell). That shouldn't present an issue.

The packs I worked on were all in ultrasonically welded plastic cases with a tiny gap for pressure equalization—they were for all intents and purposes water resistant but we didn't bother with IP ratings because they were relatively small packs with safety circuits. And they were never intended to be submerged.

Personally, I wouldn't be worried at all. Yes, there's always the remote possibility that someone makes a colossal mistake at IM, but this one would be so bad it's almost inconceivable. Especially when you're marketing the safety of the assembly.

Edited August 18, 2022 by Tawpie

[Paul g]

20 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

The Begode batteries are completely different from the few ones that had fire problems. Different cells, different voltages and different BMSes, more safety measures. Also, the 18650 Gotway batteries of old were the best ones available, so it's not like they have a history of battery issues compared to others (there also were V10 and V11 fires, for example).

I think worrying about Begode batteries is unjustified.

But of course there is "totally completely good" (Begode) and "next level" on the V13, so maybe you guys just want the extra quality and peace of mind? Personally, Begode batteries certainly would not stop me from choosing one of their wheels.

I'd say the V13 is nice enough as it is, no extra justification needed

No comment: 

 

[Paul g]

1 hour ago, The Brahan Seer said:

Something that has been bothering me for some time is the implementation of submerging the battery compartments with sealant.

I understand its a magic solution that dissipates heat and keeps everything together and stops the cells from getting upset but...

My concerns are 1) how will this impact the expansion required between each cell, 2) implications of creating issues between each cell making clean contact with each connector or other issues. 3) how easy or hard it would be to access the cells within the battery by technicians. 

Has anyone else in the Lithium Ion battery industry produced a battery using this methodology?

Has inmotion spent the time accessing potential issues? or am i worrying about nothing?

All Tesla cars have batteries “submerged” in sealant. As long as it is a fire retardant , it has flexibility, and has a valve for letting gases out, as in car battery pack, than it would be OK.

The technicians will have access only as a passing ritual to the realm of recycled batteries.

[houseofjob]

On 8/17/2022 at 2:57 PM, Fuerte said:

This is what Jason said to me which rings true to me.

"Inmotion has pulled out all the stops on the V13. If you're looking for a near indestructible battery pack, the V13 is the way to go. We also received word that they're using the Samsung 35Es in there, which are some of the best 18650s around. 

The MasterPro will probably be getting a passing grade, but nothing like the sophistication of the V13. "

No offense to Jason, but Mooch covers in his great vape battery test catalogue that the 35E is a sub par cell compared to tried-and-true Panasonic NCR18650GAs, or even LG MJ1's (both historically old EUC high power cell faithfuls pre-21700), which means high internal resistance, faster battery drain and bigger voltage sag sooner.

Batteries are like the main thing you pay for in a wheel, next is the R&D power handling setup, but not many riders do their due diligence to nitpick this factor #1, then you get all the beJesus 4P LG M50LT fires, when Mooch has well covered that that cell should not be used under high duress at high heat buildup, esp when put under more duress in such a small pack configuration under high riding amp demands as involved with EUC max loads.

 

This lackluster V13 cell selection is kind of a huge minus to me in the V13 vs Minister Pro debate, regardless of all the great engineering design IM has put in here. At least beJesus is now using semi top-tier (albeit old top tier) 21700 cell varieties now in their new wheels, not this never-been-top-tier cell.

 

Contrary to what riders these days think, the battery itself is truly the amazing & innovative tech, not suspension.

We've had suspension for over a century now, it's the battery tech with such high energy density in such a small form factor, this is what is new & innovative that allows for all the EV tech we could not implement prior, the marriage with gyroscopic tech we all thoroughly enjoy today.

And not all of those cells are made alike (not even close), so why handicap a new wheel model from day 1, given such high price premiums? (sorry this is a general rant, not directed at OP).

 

also: even if you try to hype up the "great cells" IM is using in the 35E's, you can clearly just search for both say NCR18650GA industry standard, vs the 35E price, and see that it's at least partly a cost savings ploy for InMotion, adding to profits. And if you keep track of the history, you'll realize this isn't the first time InMotion has ramped up marketing hype for hypes sake (read: IM V10F "active cooling claims" that turned out to be just a fan every other company had been long using).

Edited August 19, 2022 by houseofjob

[Fuerte]

Job,

why ya gotta kill my boner like that! 😂 

[The Brahan Seer]

1 hour ago, Paul g said:

All Tesla cars have batteries “submerged” in sealant

From memory of a teardown I once saw they do use a cooling system with piping that is for sure but I think the implementation is very different (just going on the Inmotion presentation) than what Inmotion proposes. But I might be wrong. I suppose no point in worrying about it as all will become clear once the wheel is released. I just don't have as much confidence with the engineering skills of Inmotion after the V12 debacle.

[Paul g]

1 hour ago, The Brahan Seer said:

From memory of a teardown I once saw they do use a cooling system with piping that is for sure but I think the implementation is very different (just going on the Inmotion presentation) than what Inmotion proposes. But I might be wrong. I suppose no point in worrying about it as all will become clear once the wheel is released. I just don't have as much confidence with the engineering skills of Inmotion after the V12 debacle.

True, I don’t trust their skills either. But let’s hope that they were at least that smart to copy some smart guys. The foam in Teslas is polyurethane mixed with some fire retardant, shouldn’t be that hard to reverse engineer. It also helps with heat dissipation. The V 13 might not have the cooling piping, but it will cool down better than without the foam. People might think air would be better for cooling, but air is a very efficient insulator, especially when not circulating.

[UtahRider]

Shouldn’t there be V13 test ride videos out by now? I’ve seen a couple Master Pro videos on YT but nothing for V13 yet.

[dimos15]

On 8/18/2022 at 10:00 PM, houseofjob said:

No offense to Jason, but Mooch covers in his great vape battery test catalogue that the 35E is a sub par cell compared to tried-and-true Panasonic NCR18650GAs, or even LG MJ1's (both historically old EUC high power cell faithfuls pre-21700), which means high internal resistance, faster battery drain and bigger voltage sag sooner.

Batteries are like the main thing you pay for in a wheel, next is the R&D power handling setup, but not many riders do their due diligence to nitpick this factor #1, then you get all the beJesus 4P LG M50LT fires, when Mooch has well covered that that cell should not be used under high duress at high heat buildup, esp when put under more duress in such a small pack configuration under high riding amp demands as involved with EUC max loads.

 

This lackluster V13 cell selection is kind of a huge minus to me in the V13 vs Minister Pro debate, regardless of all the great engineering design IM has put in here. At least beJesus is now using semi top-tier (albeit old top tier) 21700 cell varieties now in their new wheels, not this never-been-top-tier cell.

 

Contrary to what riders these days think, the battery itself is truly the amazing & innovative tech, not suspension.

We've had suspension for over a century now, it's the battery tech with such high energy density in such a small form factor, this is what is new & innovative that allows for all the EV tech we could not implement prior, the marriage with gyroscopic tech we all thoroughly enjoy today.

And not all of those cells are made alike (not even close), so why handicap a new wheel model from day 1, given such high price premiums? (sorry this is a general rant, not directed at OP).

 

also: even if you try to hype up the "great cells" IM is using in the 35E's, you can clearly just search for both say NCR18650GA industry standard, vs the 35E price, and see that it's at least partly a cost savings ploy for InMotion, adding to profits. And if you keep track of the history, you'll realize this isn't the first time InMotion has ramped up marketing hype for hypes sake (read: IM V10F "active cooling claims" that turned out to be just a fan every other company had been long using).

Hi, you are comparing the first batch of samsung 35E's .  The 3rd batch is a lot better.   https://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/Samsung INR18650-35E 3500mAh (Pink) 3 UK.html

They are one of the best (high capacity) 18650 cells on the market.

Also M50LT's are different from M50T's . Most gotway wheels that caught fire had M50T's

Edited August 19, 2022 by dimos15

[meepmeepmayer]

Oh great, now there are battery cell batches to worry about, too? Good to hear the V13 uses the best of the best after all it better do for that price.

[mrelwood]

9 hours ago, UtahRider said:

Shouldn’t there be V13 test ride videos out by now? I’ve seen a couple Master Pro videos on YT but nothing for V13 yet.

Begode and Inmotion use very different laugh tactics. While BG tends to have the testers freely distribute videos before launch, IM does not. Besides, we are expecting the V13 to hit the customers roughly around Christmas, while Master Pro has probably reached the end of it's production by then, replaced by a 60kg wheel called the "Master Pensioner"...

Edited August 19, 2022 by mrelwood

[RamonatheCat]

From what I heard from ewheels they are not planning to use litech for the master pro (something related to delays with og master and litech batteries).

[Paradox]

1 minute ago, RamonatheCat said:

From what I heard from ewheels they are not planning to use litech for the master pro (something related to delays with og master and litech batteries).

Even though this is the V13 thread here is some info.

[techyiam]

3 minutes ago, RamonatheCat said:

From what I heard from ewheels they are not planning to use litech for the master pro (something related to delays with og master and litech batteries).

This what I surmised. If they were serious about putting in Li-Tech battery packs in the Master Pro, wouldn't it be kind of late not to have decided yet, since it would take time to develop the packs, produce them, and incorporate them in the Master Pro production line? 

[HEC]

On 8/18/2022 at 9:00 PM, houseofjob said:

bigger voltage sag sooner

All valid points, though higher pack voltage (more cells in series) as well as capacity (more cells in parallel) should alleviate this at least a bit. In addition to that, more advanced BMS with per cell monitoring and active balancing creates another protection layer. Would I prefer to have some higher performance cells in V13? Sure. But question is how much it would increase already considerably high price and if there will be any noticeable benefit. Inmotion is using cells they're well familiar with and I personally don't see this as a dealbraker. Plus latest 35E's are very decent cells at their price levels.

Edited August 19, 2022 by HEC

[RamonatheCat]

4 hours ago, Paradox said:

Even though this is the V13 thread here is some info.

 

Alright - I got a direct email saying otherwise, but feel free to quote that, pretty sure it was already posted also. 

[houseofjob]

11 hours ago, dimos15 said:

Hi, you are comparing the first batch of samsung 35E's .  The 3rd batch is a lot better.   https://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/Samsung INR18650-35E 3500mAh (Pink) 3 UK.html

They are one of the best (high capacity) 18650 cells on the market.

3 hours ago, HEC said:

All valid points, though higher pack voltage (more cells in series) as well as capacity (more cells in parallel) should alleviate this at least a bit. In addition to that, more advanced BMS with per cell monitoring and active balancing creates another protection layer. Would I prefer to have some higher performance cells in V13? Sure. But question is how much it would increase already considerably high price and if there will be any noticeable benefit. Inmotion is using cells they're well familiar with and I personally don't see this as a dealbraker. Plus latest 35E's are very decent cells at their price levels.

Fair points, thanks.

But Mooch still rates the batch 3 35E as a cell that's best kept at 5A, more sag at higher amp load. That's not great, especially under load at the bottom of the battery pack, big pack factor gets negated down in that range, especially when you're paying way more than $1/Wh, the old EUC standard for high capacity cell wheel models. And BMS doesn't do anything for voltage sag in terms of power at this lower battery range. Huge pet peeve of mine are wheels that are super weak at these lower battery percentages, that's basically not real practical riding range to me.

At such price premiums, you would think this wheel is sporting much higher amp firing top-tier cells, not cheaper max capacity ones. FWIW, the Minister Pro is still around that $1/Wh EUC price reference standard for high capacity 50E's pack.

 

11 hours ago, dimos15 said:

Also M50LT's are different from M50T's . Most gotway wheels that caught fire had M50T's

Yes, my bad, it's M50T's, not LT's.

But also, do you have actual references showing the T vs LT are actually different chemistry and performance cells? (not being sarcastic, actually asking because I've been hard up to find any documentation on my searches).

One of the battery forums had an explanation (dunno how correct) that the designations indicate the factory of manufacture, not the fact that they are different chemistries.

But in general, there is no actual documentation I can find online proving things in either direction.

 

Edited August 19, 2022 by houseofjob

[UtahRider]

10 hours ago, RamonatheCat said:

From what I heard from ewheels they are not planning to use litech for the master pro (something related to delays with og master and litech batteries).

Sounds right since I know my Master has been delayed because of this (even though EWheels blamed the delay on Begode).

[HEC]

7 hours ago, houseofjob said:

And BMS doesn't do anything for voltage sag in terms of power at this lower battery range.

True, though both higher amount of cells in parallel and serial still helps here. Also, the controller have a beefy set of capacitors to further deal with intermittent current spikes and to minimize the negative effects of said voltage sag, mainly in case of hitting potholes or curbs as well as in case of aggressive acceleration and so on. I personally do not ride the wheels below 20 - 15% of capacity that often,  and if I do, I ride it slow, though if I plan a long trip reaching the max range of the used wheel, I usually take overall slower tempo to increase the range, rather than ride more aggressive until the battery is almost empty and then crawl the rest of the trip to make it back ...

In reality each EUC is in the end a compromise of various, often contradicting requirements (safe, fast, light, long range, cheap, easy to repair, making you breakfast, etc.) and each of us needs to select the wheel (or more) based on our own priorities. And so far V13 checks most boxes on my list (though shedding off some weight and lower price would make it even sweeter).

[Wraith Rider]

8 hours ago, houseofjob said:

Fair points, thanks.

But Mooch still rates the batch 3 35E as a cell that's best kept at 5A, more sag at higher amp load. That's not great, especially under load at the bottom of the battery pack, big pack factor gets negated down in that range, especially when you're paying way more than $1/Wh, the old EUC standard for high capacity cell wheel models. And BMS doesn't do anything for voltage sag in terms of power at this lower battery range. Huge pet peeve of mine are wheels that are super weak at these lower battery percentages, that's basically not real practical riding range to me.

At such price premiums, you would think this wheel is sporting much higher amp firing top-tier cells, not cheaper max capacity ones. FWIW, the Minister Pro is still around that $1/Wh EUC price reference standard for high capacity 50E's pack.

 

Yes, my bad, it's M50T's, not LT's.

But also, do you have actual references showing the T vs LT are actually different chemistry and performance cells? (not being sarcastic, actually asking because I've been hard up to find any documentation on my searches).

One of the battery forums had an explanation (dunno how correct) that the designations indicate the factory of manufacture, not the fact that they are different chemistries.

But in general, there is no actual documentation I can find online proving things in either direction.

 

If your comparing the V13 to the Begode pro, overall there is much more design and thought that went into the v13.  This Begode pro is just a master platform, with some supposedly tweaked improvements on suspension, and lights.  No innovation to slap some more batteries on it  Just like the V13 has a lot to prove to see if it all works, the master has had it share of issues.  So I don’t expect the Begode pro to be any different.   As for batteries, battery tech has been relatively stagnant since the introduction of lithium ion..  While there are the larger 21700 cells, you sacrifice range for high discharge.  It’s the sum of the whole.  No one buys the wheels for just the battery tech or just the suspension.  Unless you engineered the wheel yourself, knew what their price margin was, you can’t know what their reason was for using the 35Es.  The average buyer of these larger wheels will buy this wheel for the water resistance aspect alone.  Only the hardcore begode performance riders will buy a wheel solely on batteries or even the motor.  They also don’t care if the wheel will cut out, catch fire, or parts are broken out of the box.  That’s a Begode buyer.  

[houseofjob]

7 hours ago, HEC said:

True, though both higher amount of cells in parallel and serial still helps here. Also, the controller have a beefy set of capacitors to further deal with intermittent current spikes and to minimize the negative effects of said voltage sag, mainly in case of hitting potholes or curbs as well as in case of aggressive acceleration and so on. I personally do not ride the wheels below 20 - 15% of capacity that often,  and if I do, I ride it slow, though if I plan a long trip reaching the max range of the used wheel, I usually take overall slower tempo to increase the range, rather than ride more aggressive until the battery is almost empty and then crawl the rest of the trip to make it back ...

In reality each EUC is in the end a compromise of various, often contradicting requirements (safe, fast, light, long range, cheap, easy to repair, making you breakfast, etc.) and each of us needs to select the wheel (or more) based on our own priorities. And so far V13 checks most boxes on my list (though shedding off some weight and lower price would make it even sweeter).

LOL, I don't like to ride below 40-50% 

Maybe I'm getting too curmudgeonly here being 7 years into EUC, but I still look at price comps, and relative side-by-side performance comps, and nearly $1.5/Wh really doesn't make sense to me without something groundbreaking (nothing groundbreaking to me here).

I wonder how much price inflation is needed before all the new riders start to revolt ($10k USD EUC?). In the past, companies have tried to up the price premiums for not a lot of justification, like I believe how Shermona was originally quoted higher than the actual launch price before they retreated, etc.

No one ever mentions such things in these new wheel discussions, everything is always daisies.

 

6 hours ago, Wraith Rider said:

If your comparing the V13 to the Begode pro, overall there is much more design and thought that went into the v13.  This Begode pro is just a master platform, with some supposedly tweaked improvements on suspension, and lights.  No innovation to slap some more batteries on it  Just like the V13 has a lot to prove to see if it all works, the master has had it share of issues.  So I don’t expect the Begode pro to be any different.   As for batteries, battery tech has been relatively stagnant since the introduction of lithium ion..  While there are the larger 21700 cells, you sacrifice range for high discharge.  It’s the sum of the whole.  No one buys the wheels for just the battery tech or just the suspension.  Unless you engineered the wheel yourself, knew what their price margin was, you can’t know what their reason was for using the 35Es.  The average buyer of these larger wheels will buy this wheel for the water resistance aspect alone.  Only the hardcore begode performance riders will buy a wheel solely on batteries or even the motor.  They also don’t care if the wheel will cut out, catch fire, or parts are broken out of the box.  That’s a Begode buyer.  

Oh, the only reason why I'm mildly interested and poking my head on this thread is because of those thoughtful V13 engineering design cues. 

But I hardly think these engineering design cues are such groundbreaking revolutionary innovations that merit $1.5/wh, they're stuff that should be a given, not dramatically different or difficult to implement from the regular implementation. As you can see, the price is a huge factor in my criticism here, if it was closer to the $1/wh, totally different argument.

I'm an equal-opportunity critic of all wheels, zero brand loyalty (brand loyalty is nonsense for CCP communist China 差不多 Chàbùduō culture companies), there are huge red flags on the Mistermeister Pro as well (primarily the lack of a protective shell to me).

I'm just kind of always amazed about the "this is my brand and it can do no wrong" mentality of Western riders. These are not Western companies, past success is not an indication of future success, don't matter which "reputable" EUC brand it is, they've all had flaming fail incidents in their pasts.

Also, Western riders take the initial price offering as final, which is perplexing when you're talking about an automatically assumed haggle culture in Mainland China. Every wheel I've ever bought direct from China, price wiggle room is Always built-in, but Western buyers keep taking ever inflating face value price at final face value, which inflates the wiggle range as well.

There will be more future wheels, so to counter the innate rider take-all-my-money new wheel FOMO, I find it's way more effective to mercilessly scrutinize every new wheel, every company, no matter how much you like them, then take the ones that have the least red flags, otherwise you inflate the market and start to pile up wheels that get negated and not ridden when the next new hot wheel model comes out the following year. 

 

I don't understand how a positivity affirmation-fest is productive for the customer.

Don't you want to demand more for your hard-earned money?

 

Edited August 20, 2022 by houseofjob

[dimos15]

On 8/20/2022 at 1:11 AM, houseofjob said:

Fair points, thanks.

But Mooch still rates the batch 3 35E as a cell that's best kept at 5A, more sag at higher amp load. That's not great, especially under load at the bottom of the battery pack, big pack factor gets negated down in that range, especially when you're paying way more than $1/Wh, the old EUC standard for high capacity cell wheel models. And BMS doesn't do anything for voltage sag in terms of power at this lower battery range. Huge pet peeve of mine are wheels that are super weak at these lower battery percentages, that's basically not real practical riding range to me.

At such price premiums, you would think this wheel is sporting much higher amp firing top-tier cells, not cheaper max capacity ones. FWIW, the Minister Pro is still around that $1/Wh EUC price reference standard for high capacity 50E's pack.

 

Yes, my bad, it's M50T's, not LT's.

But also, do you have actual references showing the T vs LT are actually different chemistry and performance cells? (not being sarcastic, actually asking because I've been hard up to find any documentation on my searches).

One of the battery forums had an explanation (dunno how correct) that the designations indicate the factory of manufacture, not the fact that they are different chemistries.

But in general, there is no actual documentation I can find online proving things in either direction.

 

 

Nice comparison from mooch, the samsung 35E3 has less voltage sag than pretty much every other high capacity cell

I think it is obvious why they didn't use high discharge cells. They wanted to hit the 3000wh mark without passing 50kg

With 30s8p of samsung 35E's you can get plenty of power still.

Also the batteries will be potted->better cooling->longer battery life

I think the $/wh comparison with the master pro is unfair. Gotway doesn't use pure nickel strips on their battery packs, the bms is dumb, the batteries are not potted..

Having a wheel with 4600wh is definitely exciting though.

(M50LT is the new version of M50T https://budgetlightforum.com/node/80928   the m50lt has less internal resistance, there are reviews on lygte and mooch)

Edited August 20, 2022 by dimos15

[mrelwood]

 

1 hour ago, houseofjob said:

nearly $1.5/Wh really doesn't make sense to me without something groundbreaking (nothing groundbreaking to me here).

When you lay it out like that, it sounds as if Wh was the only measure in a wheel that's worth any money. I think of the value of an EUC very differently.

1 hour ago, houseofjob said:

I wonder how much price inflation is needed before all the new riders start to revolt ($10k USD EUC?).

Just keep adding speed or battery and they're ok with any price...

 

1 hour ago, houseofjob said:

they're stuff that should be a given

Should, but aren't. Maybe that has skewed your $/Wh scale somewhat? If 1 $/Wh brings you the current design and manufacturing issues, and 1.5 $/Wh is required for them to be fixed at the factory, shouldn't 1.5 $/Wh then be the norm to compare others to?

 

1 hour ago, houseofjob said:

zero brand loyalty

I'm not necessarily doubting your's, but so far every person I've heard saying that have been pretty heavily brand biased... 

 

1 hour ago, houseofjob said:

past success is not an indication of future success, don't matter which "reputable" EUC brand it is, they've all had flaming fail incidents in their pasts.

Those are indeed very real and realistic viewpoints.

 

1 hour ago, houseofjob said:

Also, Western riders take the initial price offering as final, which is perplexing when you're talking about an automatically assumed haggle culture in Mainland China. Every wheel I've ever bought direct from China, price wiggle room is Always built-in, but Western buyers keep taking ever inflating face value price at final face value, which inflates the wiggle range as well.

Well, most riders don't have a sensible opportunity to buy directly from China.  They only deal with Western distributors, with Western buying culture. I'm certain that manufacturers are well aware of the different cultures, and that the prices we're given are calculated for Western distributors. 

 

1 hour ago, houseofjob said:

Don't you want to demand more for your hard-earned money?

There was a very suitable quote in the T4 thread, where a guy fully expects a $2400 100V suspension wheel to have lousy headlights and handle, unprotected batteries etc. The riders' expectations are based on what they have gotten previously with that amount of money. To me it sounded very sad, since in my world those things are very far from the standard.

Hence, my wallet has voted for "don't buy" for a year now, despite fully expecting to spend around 3-3.5K on a new wheel this year. But even I do experience the wannabuyism, and I've tried to talk myself into a few of the new wheels. But they'd be downgrades for me, so I just can't justify getting one.