I Broke My Thigh Bone At Around 10-15KMH (6-9MPH)

[Planemo]

22 hours ago, mrelwood said:

 

“Killing” would point to the op causing the death. In western countries to be labeled like that, the accident must be examined by the police and other authorities, after which the event would have go through a trial in court. None of these have happened, and seems that they won’t either.

So far it seems that the op did not “kill” the pedestrian, nor is he accused of doing so. They were both in an accident that caused the pedestrian to die. An accident does not a killer make.

'Kill' is such a wafty term in law (in the UK at least) that its never used in legal terminology, only in tabloids.

The only true terms are murder and manslaughter, but both (if you want to be pedantic) result in a 'kill' in that a life is lost. Which is why the term kill is shaky.

The OP is in the manslaughter catagory no question, as murder requires intent.

That said, traffic specific law wording in the UK is slightly different to criminal law, and for the OP it would either be 'death by dangerous driving' or 'death by careless driving'. It would be for the court to decide. Either charge would be your worst nightmare.

Either way, this is a massively tragic incident, and should forever be in every riders mind before you step foot on a wheel, especially those of us riding illegally. A death by dangerous/careless conviction could ruin you for life, including any family around you when financially they could be absolutely crippled.

 

[redsnapper]

 

On 11/14/2020 at 6:54 AM, mrelwood said:

A pedestrian doing unexpected movements or jumps when crossing the trajectory of any vehicle, is the one causing the danger.

Respectfully - I disagree.  Of course pedestrians should be careful etc but the onus is also on the moving vehicle to be pro-active/defensive to anticipate or allow for enough margin to avoid a collision... The second you see a pedestrian crossing in your projected path you have to immediately adjust so that no matter what that pedestrian does, you will not hit them at speed ( because the consequence to them is potentially fatal )... Of course many of us have failed to do this - guilty as charged! - with no bad outcomes because pedestrians are generally predictable. But not always! After reading this I rolled through the number of times I have  come up behind walkers on trails going around them at speed with a decent margin - but still.  An EUC can be very quiet and what if the walker is talking about some sports event and jumps to the side to demo something they saw etc right into my path? Or what if they are deaf and cross the path to take a leak? Yes they should have looked behind but I am the one who has the potential to really hurt someone - I am the missile carrying all the deadly inertia (in a car, on a bike, on a pev,etc)!  We cannot account for every bizarre situation imaginable but this is a very predictable and common scenario - pedestrian crossing street. 

It could very well have been me ( or many others I'm sure ) writing this sorry tale. This rider ( and the pedestrian of course) is the unlucky one to bear the awful burden because insufficient safety margin was used. But the painful truth is that this was a very avoidable outcome. 

It took courage to post this - very sad this happened @nalds - it will certainly serve as a warning to many a rider & hopefully help to keep us super-mindful around pedestrians & prevent future collisions. 

[TheMasterSword]

On 11/14/2020 at 1:11 AM, atdlzpae said:

I think that the answer is to ride more defensively. That's it honestly. And it applies to any vehicle, be it a car or a bicycle.

###################################

Femur is the strongest bone in the body. How did you break it? I don't doubt your story, I'm just curious about the physics of it. Any ideas how exactly did it happen?
What type of a fracture was it?

I totally doubt his story, my mom broke her femur in a bad car accident, it is the strongest bone in the body (like you said) Unless he had 100lbs of bricks in a backpack, he did not shear or snap the femur going low speed. That poor woman died for nothing (OP mentioned seeing her a long ways away <-- This right here is the "guilt") He did not slow down in anticipation for this elderly woman. In the US this is called manslaughter, you did not intend the outcome, but due to not giving pedestrian the "right of way" you thought you would just sprint past her and she died.

[TheMasterSword]

7 minutes ago, TheMasterSword said:

I totally doubt his story, my mom broke her femur in a bad car accident, it is the strongest bone in the body (like you said) Unless he had 100lbs of bricks in a backpack, he did not shear or snap the femur going low speed. That poor woman died for nothing (OP mentioned seeing her a long ways away <-- This right here is the "guilt") He did not slow down in anticipation for this elderly woman. In the US this is called manslaughter, you did not intend the outcome, but due to not giving pedestrian the "right of way" you thought you would just sprint past her and she died.

One more thing, this is just a trueism: When someone sets up a long and lengthy explanation (before telling you what happened) They are setting you up to suspend disbelief, usually sales people impose this tactic. Not attacking anyone, just giving out some of my experience so ya'll can be sober and vigilant when this tactic shows itself in a situation; whether in a negotiation or circumstance.

[shellac]

@naldsIt must have been difficult to share this story. Thanks for doing so, it will make everyone a bit more of a careful rider. 

I wonder if you were going faster than you think based on the injuries involved. Regardless though, this was an accident and I know you feel guilty but sometimes accidents happen. I hope you recover soon and I hope the old lady is at peace. 

[wheel-life]

1 hour ago, TheMasterSword said:

One more thing, this is just a trueism: When someone sets up a long and lengthy explanation (before telling you what happened) They are setting you up to suspend disbelief, usually sales people impose this tactic. Not attacking anyone, just giving out some of my experience so ya'll can be sober and vigilant when this tactic shows itself in a situation; whether in a negotiation or circumstance.

I did find the post title very odd and waiting to mention the fatality until almost the end but I wrote that off as someone that doesn't speak english as their first language (?).  I don't really know...no one can say anything for certain, except the OP.

[LanghamP]

50 minutes ago, manieuc said:

I did find the post title very odd and waiting to mention the fatality until almost the end but I wrote that off as someone that doesn't speak english as their first language (?).  I don't really know...no one can say anything for certain, except the OP.

I would have put "crashed into pedestrian, killed her and broke my leg". However, storytelling is usually told in utterly chronological order as that's by far the easiest way to access your memories. I remember reading the inverse pyramid method of storytelling (where important information is placed in the first paragraph) wasn't invented until literacy and the printing press became widespread, but it's still highly unnatural. If you go back to the pre-bellum articles of The Atlantic, you'll notice you have no idea what each article is about until you read the damned article, and that's stays true until maybe the 1960's.

Interestingly, the J shape of reading is most common these days, whereby people read just the first paragraph, then skip to the conclusion.

[Dave Wood]

Surprised something as tragic as this hasn't happened sooner judging from the majority of clips iv seen of riders around pedestrians, i literally had a argument with somebody on facebook a couple of days ago about people riding too fast around people, Can't say im surprised though when people with influence like ustride post extremely careless riding examples for views like his veteran sherman demo day video...

[RockyTop]

So, replace the EUC with a bicycle. You get the same results. And yes you can find many stories of people dying from bicycle coalitions with pedestrians: We don’t condemn the cyclists or blame the bicycles.   We don’t question if bicycles should exist and we don’t question the skill of cyclist. Bad things happen. We should try to avoid them and live our lives the best we can otherwise we will all die from inactivity. 

[atdlzpae]

@nalds Your links don't work - only you can access them since you're logged into your Dropbox.
Maybe attach the file directly? The "choose files..." option at the bottom of reply box.

[mike_bike_kite]

  

12 minutes ago, RockyTop said:

So, replace the EUC with a bicycle. You get the same results. And yes you can find many stories of people dying from bicycle coalitions with pedestrians: We don’t condemn the cyclists or blame the bicycles.   We don’t question if bicycles should exist and we don’t question the skill of cyclist. Bad things happen. We should try to avoid them and live our lives the best we can otherwise we will all die from inactivity. 

In the UK, I can only think of only one case where a pedestrian died from a cycle impact. There was a huge outcry because the bike was a fixie bicycle which means no brakes but the gearing is fixed with no freewheel so you slow down by putting resistance through your legs. The government listened to the outcry and made fixie bikes illegal in the UK. You can imagine the result of a high speed impact between an EUC and a pedestrian and then the newspapers discovering they can go fast but don't have any brakes.

[Surfling]

11 hours ago, Sludog said:

True.  This poorly written article says nothing about the EUC rider and if he sustained serious injury. I would think a broken leg would be news worthy. 

An unforgettable first post. "Hi im new here.... I crashed my EUC.... broke my leg....tragically an old lady died. 

Part of me wants to think this is a fake post from a troll or EUC hater only because its a first post.

So sad for everyone involved

Well, @nalds, I agree with the above post and my suspicion is based on the following:

1. You claimed riding for 1.5 years yet this is your FIRST post here. I find that quiet unusual. I think most members joined in right after getting into the sport or curious into getting in. Somebody correct me on that please.

2. As @TheMasterSwordand @atdlzpae mentioned, it takes a lot of force to break a femur! The ones I know about always involve very high speed.  Biting a cooked chicken thigh bone alone takes a lot!  Some friends that had death-defying downhill bike crashes had mostly tibia fractures and collar bone/clavicle breaks etc - never femur. So, I can't wrap my head on your case - it simply defies physics.  6-9 mph with a loose EUC knee high at most.

3. A deadly accident is always news-worthy anywhere.

4. Lastly, I'm very surprise that her famiy "...showed no anger at all" when she died. Maybe it's cultural, perhaps some family dysfunction we wouldn't know, but I find this very hard to believe. I grew up a few islands from Indonesia. 

This post maybe harsh and I really like to believe your story. At the same time, I think it's vital to be clear on your intentions and keep this board free of malice.

Edited November 15, 2020 by Surfling
additional text

[Crooznfbroozn]

10-15kmh is jogging pace isn't it?

[Obee]

This notion that if it was a bicycle, you wouldn't blame the cyclist... Couldn't be more wrong. 

The idea that an accident like this is a blameless act of God type thing just isn't so. 

If the op story is largely true, and who knows if it is, it is likely not completely true concerning details of speed and who leaped where and when. 

The details largely don't matter.  The unicyclist was at fault and is responsible for a death. If there aren't any legal repercussions then at a minimum this person should never touch an EUC again.  He had his chance to try it. It didn't work out.  Obviously that's an understatement. 

 

I feel this way about this the same as when I heard the copilot of Comair 5191 wanted to get back into flying after being the sole survivor ofa crash he caused.  You can talk about the causal factors outside of his own actions and question whether it's completely his fault, but in the end he pushed the thrust levers forward on the wrong runway and killed a bunch of people.  He had his shot and blew it. No more. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comair_Flight_5191

[redsnapper]

hard to blv this is a fake post - if fake, to what end? an EUC hater would certainly not invent a tale in which the rider is clearly at fault as this does not besmirch EUCs per se. Rather it impugns anyone riding any vehicle around pedestrians...

and certainly if true only adding insult to injury to call the poster a troll/liar - guy is already suffering sufficiently isn't he?

and if on the very low prob this were fake, it is still a useful - albeit unethical -  thought-provoking fiction given how often riders have not given pedestrians sufficient safety margins & have been lucky to avoid the chamber with the bullet... I just this morning moderated my approach to pedestrians on a trail in response to this incident. Fiction or not - I have certainly benefited from thinking on this... 

[RockyTop]

We should ban all EUC and bicycles. We should ban absolutely everything. Without everything people would be safe.  “We should do it if it will save a single life.” “ We should do something, anything even if it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever” 
 

Did she die from the impact or because she fell over? Bad things happen. We can’t stop the world and condemn everyone and everything. 

[Surfling]

13 minutes ago, amelanso said:

hard to blv this is a fake post - if fake, to what end? an EUC hater would certainly not invent a tale in which the rider is clearly at fault as this does not besmirch EUCs per se. Rather it impugns anyone riding any vehicle around pedestrians...

and certainly if true only adding insult to injury to call the poster a troll/liar - guy is already suffering sufficiently isn't he?

and if on the very low prob this were fake, it is still a useful - albeit unethical -  thought-provoking fiction given how often riders have not given pedestrians sufficient safety margins & have been lucky to avoid the chamber with the bullet... I just this morning moderated my approach to pedestrians on a trail in response to this incident. Fiction or not - I have certainly benefited from thinking on this... 

If this is a true story, given the facts, then it's an unbelievable incident, thus, hard to believe and hence, the suspicion. I don't believe every story I see on the interwebs and certainly would not gain anything insulting the OP. No hatin"

[Obee]

Part of freedom is responsibility. 

If you want the freedom to take chances then you need to be prepared to take responsibility if it goes bad. 

I am with you on keeping freedom.  I do not agree that you can do that while claiming no responsibility for things that happen. 

[mike_bike_kite]

7 minutes ago, RockyTop said:

We should ban all EUC and bicycles. We should ban absolutely everything. Without everything people would be safe.  “We should do it if it will save a single life.” “ We should do something, anything even if it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever” 
 

Did she die from the impact or because she fell over?

We should ride slower around pedestrians.

She'd almost certainly of died from being flung onto the road and cracking her skull on the ground.

[null]

I think there are two different issues in what you mention @RockyTop

- Whether EUCs are dangerous compared to bicycles etc and should be treated as the Black Death because media and people
(no IMO we lack stats and shit happens)

- Whether OP was riding within reasonable safety margins and hence if he is partly to blame.
(shit happens but that's why we pad with safety margin in relation to the risk. When you have an elderly lady that seem unsure crossing the street? )

(Not saying I never glip on security or misjudge risk..)

Edited November 15, 2020 by null

[redsnapper]

30 minutes ago, RockyTop said:

We should ban all EUC and bicycles. We should ban absolutely everything. Without everything people would be safe.  “We should do it if it will save a single life.” “ We should do something, anything even if it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever” 
 

Did she die from the impact or because she fell over? Bad things happen. We can’t stop the world and condemn everyone and everything. 

No talk of banning anything RT (or condemnation of rider) - just reflection & possible learning from a sad outcome.  Reasonable reduction of preventable mishaps (especially something like collision with pedestrian) is good for all. IMO avoiding such outcomes (via open discussions & reflection like this) helps to prevent technocratic bean-counters from imposing dreaded bans etc. and curtailing our freedom.

[mhpr262]

The old woman is at fault here. Probably borderline dementia. If you dont know any longer how to act in traffic - decisively and clearly signalling your intentions - then you have no business crossing roads with moving traffic without somebody holding your hand. I really dont see how people would see the EUC rider at fault here - it happened on a ROAD, and roads are for vehicles, not pedestrians. It is the bloody pedestrian's duty to watch out for himself and not be a nuisance and a danger to traffic. EVerything would probably have worked out perfectly fine if she had looked neither left nor right and just kept on walking.

But yeah, unfortunately a lot of us ride way too fast and too recklessly around pedestrians. I have left comments regarding this issue under the videos of some of the biggest youtube EUC stars, even one or two members of this forum.

Edited November 15, 2020 by mhpr262
toned it down a bit

[null]

That is really unnecessary toward a person who just got killed @mhpr262 .

(Edit: shortening)

Edited November 15, 2020 by null

[TheMasterSword]

There's a few ignorant posts blaming the poor woman (pedestrian), I think the lesson here is when on a EUC or bicycle, please slow down when sharing the sidewalk with pedestrians. I imagine that poor woman did not know what was coming towards her and she froze, then became discombobulated and paid the price for a bad decision (on the part of the EUC rider).

Now that I think about it, the fact that OP stated he could see the woman on a trajectory into his path from farther away, makes this "Negligent Homicide", If he had not seen her beforehand and it was a surprise accident, it would be "Manslaughter".

This is an unfortunate situation for all involved, as EUC riders, we have a responsibility of keeping the community safe from unnecessary injury, let's keep the hobby legal, be sober, be vigilant, always error on the side of caution and uphold the safety of pedestrians above all. Remember: There are some risks that should not be taken, so be patient with those around you, be safe and have fun.

[TheMasterSword]

2 hours ago, Surfling said:

Well, @nalds, I agree with the above post and my suspicion is based on the following:

1. You claimed riding for 1.5 years yet this is your FIRST post here. I find that quiet unusual. I think most members joined in right after getting into the sport or curious into getting in. Somebody correct me on that please.

2. As @TheMasterSwordand @atdlzpae mentioned, it takes a lot of force to break a femur! The ones I know about always involve very high speed.  Biting a cooked chicken thigh bone alone takes a lot!  Some friends that had death-defying downhill bike crashes had mostly tibia fractures and collar bone/clavicle breaks etc - never femur. So, I can't wrap my head on your case - it simply defies physics.  6-9 mph with a loose EUC knee high at most.

3. A deadly accident is always news-worthy anywhere.

4. Lastly, I'm very surprise that her famiy "...showed no anger at all" when she died. Maybe it's cultural, perhaps some family dysfunction we wouldn't know, but I find this very hard to believe. I grew up a few islands from Indonesia. 

This post maybe harsh and I really like to believe your story. At the same time, I think it's vital to be clear on your intentions and keep this board free of malice.

Just like my mom, Surfling likes eating chicken bones lololol :)