I Broke My Thigh Bone At Around 10-15KMH (6-9MPH)

[TheMasterSword]

On 11/20/2020 at 5:02 PM, amelanso said:

 To me it takes a ton of balls to post a tragic story like this (where @nalds admits to being at least partially to blame for someone's death). I am quite astonished by the amount of flame @nalds has gotten (liar,troll,misleading title,etc.). It seems to me that the aim of a forum like this is to encourage open exchange of info/ideas, fellowship, and possible connecting of localised riders heretofore unknown to one another. IMO the posts that should be moderated are the ones that are overly disrespectful or clearly deceitful. Branding @nalds as a liar/troll or castigating him ( for the title, omissions,etc )  seems excessively harsh given the paucity of evidence invoked to malign him and the tragic nature of his tale (which is ultimately of benefit to all of us!). Forgive yourself @nalds - and thx for sharing. Ignore the noise. We cannot change what is done, only what we do next...

No one likes what they see: OP posted their story, to assuage their feelings of guilt (proven with nalds own words), downplayed their role, but ended up confessing guilt by letting it slip that he saw the poor old woman from far away, yet did not slow down for her <== Those two things are what makes us mad about the whole situation, no one likes being lied to or used as an emotional tampon. If the guy told the story accurately, I don't think there would be so much rebuttal in the thread, but with each passing post from OP, he reveals more and more of what actually happened. Hopefully a Jakartan prosecutor is seeing all this.

 

[redsnapper]

1 hour ago, TheMasterSword said:

No one likes what they see: OP posted their story, to assuage their feelings of guilt (proven with nalds own words), downplayed their role, but ended up confessing guilt by letting it slip that he saw the poor old woman from far away, yet did not slow down for her <== Those two things are what makes us mad about the whole situation, no one likes being lied to or used as an emotional tampon. If the guy told the story accurately, I don't think there would be so much rebuttal in the thread, but with each passing post from OP, he reveals more and more of what actually happened. Hopefully a Jakartan prosecutor is seeing all this.

 

Lord above!  A small minority of posters continue to criticise & call OP a liar etc.  (which should never have happened imo - benefit of the doubt!).  OP is NOT posting  in his native language and still some are splitting hairs on details when the big picture is clear! He admits it himself and is obviously remorseful and suffering. And you are hoping for him to be prosecuted? I have offered all my thoughts on this sad situation - I can add nothing more... 

[Hal Farrenkopf]

@nalds accidents happen. This was an accident. Thanks for sharing. 
 

Thus should be a wake up call to everyone driving an euc. People and animals are unpredictable and assume their worst action/reaction at all times. Correct way to proceed when seeing this elderly woman or anyone would have been to slow down so that you could have stopped safely. 
 

Your location in the world dictates how traffic flows and interactions with others but pedestrians should always be yielded to. 
 

Unfortunate accident that caused her to hit her head and fracture it. You will never forget the event unfortunately and will just have to accept what happened as an accident and learn from it. Sharing it hopefully helps others to think about how they ride and their consequences. 
 

When I was much younger, I once helped up a very old frail women who fell over into a product stand in a grocery store and as I was picking up some of her stuff, she just fell over like a tree being cut down and I heard her head smack the floor. That sound still haunts me to this day and I wonder if she survived - she was conscious and aware and talking but was still attended to by an ambulance.  I was on my lunch break and had to return to work after staying as long as I could. After that day, I treated elderly people much differently and was scared to do the wrong thing again. Getting old and frail is one of life’s worst tragedies. Old people really need to wear helmets too. 
 

I don’t believe in any gods or religion, so I can’t pray the pain away.  Everything we do has consequences.  All we can do is move on and do better. 

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

I do not want to interfere and judge what is wrong and what is right.

I am only interested in where do so many as..oles suddenly come from? 

[redsnapper]

46 minutes ago, buell47 said:

I do not want to interfere and judge what is wrong and what is right.

I am only interested in where do so many as..oles suddenly come from? 

you are partly to blame - the dual charger mob has sadly taken off :-( If only someone had your 2x charger mop to clean this s!*t up!!!

Edited November 23, 2020 by amelanso

[mrelwood]

 

11 hours ago, TheMasterSword said:

yet did not slow down

Read again. From the very first post:

 

On 11/14/2020 at 10:47 AM, nalds said:

That morning, we rode slowly & carefully.

...

I knew that with my speed everything's gonna be alright.

...

I tried slowing down and braking but she didn't move.

 

[GothamMike]

On 11/21/2020 at 10:41 AM, nalds said:

 

@amelanso this noon, my gf instructed our driver to go to the supermarket which was right across where the accident happened, I almost puked.

I tried contacting the relatives of the old lady, asking if I could come over to their place. I wanted to apologize & clear my conscience. However due to the Covid-19 situation, they wouldn't receive any guests yet.

I must find another way to clear my conscience.

The family could be angry. It could get violent.  Speaking to a professional may be helpful.

[Ubute]

A

 

5 hours ago, GothamMike said:

The family could be angry. It could get violent.  Speaking to a professional may be helpful.

Again I feel there is a cultural gulf in evidence here. Why would it get violent? This is Indonesia, not America. This is not an individualist gun culture with violence seen as the first and inevitable solution to every problem. Gotham, isn't that where Batman comes from? I'm far from expert, but I don't think Indonesia shares the cultural trope of masked vigilanties taking the law into their own hands and killing baddies. For all their faults and difficulties with "modernisation", Indonesians are far more likely to negotiate a socially acceptable solution between aggrieved parties than to resort to violence.

I've just had a long conversation with a friend who lived in Indonesia for many years to check that I'm being fair and reasonable in my responses here. He said of course there are all types of people in Indonesia, just as there are in America and the west. There are criminal villages and mafia type organisations. If the EUC rider had hit someone from one of those places he'd probably be dead already. But he isn't, and by far the most likely outcome will be a protracted negotiation through layers of community leaders resulting in some sort of financial settlement. My friend points out that there are eight layers of government in Indonesia, right down to village heads or elders who might be in charge of as few as 40 families. Nobody would just knock on the door of the woman's family, they would approach through the village heirarchy. In Indonesia any emotional outburst or display of anger is seen as serious loss of face and just doesn't happen. Road rage as it occurs in the west is virtually non-existent in Indonesia.

My friend agreed that anyone crossing the road takes their life in their hands and is expected to keep going steadily, but he also pointed out that in the chaos of Indonesian traffic, the one rule, the only rule that really counts, is don't hit anyone.

Regarding speaking to a "professional", I'm not sure who this would be in the Indonesian context. Negotiations might involve local leaders and extended family members. An incident like this might be seen more in a community context than as a legal battle between individuals. We should never assume "the rest of the world" will see things as "we" do.

The final point that my wise friend made was why am I getting involved in an on-line discussion about this stuff?  Don't I know that you can't "win" arguments in forums and chat rooms? Don't I realise there will always be people who want to blame and criticise, who view the world from an ignorant, self-centred or even xenophobic perspective? I myself have just indulged in an offensive generalisation about America being a violent gun culture. Here in Tasmania I can almost hear the roar of disapproval from all those millions of Americans who don't feel that way.

Isn't this supposed to be an EUC geek forum, my friend asked.

I really like my new dual-axis knee guards...

[nalds]

On 11/22/2020 at 10:19 PM, amelanso said:

Lord above!  A small minority of posters continue to criticise & call OP a liar etc.  (which should never have happened imo - benefit of the doubt!).  OP is NOT posting  in his native language and still some are splitting hairs on details when the big picture is clear! He admits it himself and is obviously remorseful and suffering. And you are hoping for him to be prosecuted? I have offered all my thoughts on this sad situation - I can add nothing more... 

Thank you, @amelanso

I have posted my x-ray & operation picture. I have also included picture of me arriving in the hospital. If you noticed my right leg carefully, you'll see that it bent the wrong way.

If some people thought that 'no way it could happen', 'your speed must have double what you said' and so on, let them.

They won't believe, no matter what we said and it's not our job to make them believe. So, we better stop.

On 11/23/2020 at 12:44 AM, Hal Farrenkopf said:

@nalds accidents happen. This was an accident. Thanks for sharing. 
 

Thus should be a wake up call to everyone driving an euc. People and animals are unpredictable and assume their worst action/reaction at all times. Correct way to proceed when seeing this elderly woman or anyone would have been to slow down so that you could have stopped safely. 

.....

When I was much younger, I once helped up a very old frail women who fell over into a product stand in a grocery store and as I was picking up some of her stuff, she just fell over like a tree being cut down and I heard her head smack the floor. That sound still haunts me to this day and I wonder if she survived - she was conscious and aware and talking but was still attended to by an ambulance.  I was on my lunch break and had to return to work after staying as long as I could. After that day, I treated elderly people much differently and was scared to do the wrong thing again. Getting old and frail is one of life’s worst tragedies. Old people really need to wear helmets too. 

I don’t believe in any gods or religion, so I can’t pray the pain away.  Everything we do has consequences.  All we can do is move on and do better. 

You are right, everything we do has consequences. Whether we intended it or not, we must bear the consequence.  I could feel and understand how bad you felt @Hal Farrenkopf. You intended to help, you were not aware and suddenly she fell over. It must have left a mental scar. 

Then we come to realize that some things are within our control and some things aren't. We have to make peace with things that are not within our control. All we can do, like you said, is move on and do better.

13 hours ago, Ubute said:

A

 

Again I feel there is a cultural gulf in evidence here. Why would it get violent? This is Indonesia, not America. This is not an individualist gun culture with violence seen as the first and inevitable solution to every problem. Gotham, isn't that where Batman comes from? I'm far from expert, but I don't think Indonesia shares the cultural trope of masked vigilanties taking the law into their own hands and killing baddies. For all their faults and difficulties with "modernisation", Indonesians are far more likely to negotiate a socially acceptable solution between aggrieved parties than to resort to violence.

..

My friend agreed that anyone crossing the road takes their life in their hands and is expected to keep going steadily, but he also pointed out that in the chaos of Indonesian traffic, the one rule, the only rule that really counts, is don't hit anyone.

Regarding speaking to a "professional", I'm not sure who this would be in the Indonesian context. Negotiations might involve local leaders and extended family members. An incident like this might be seen more in a community context than as a legal battle between individuals. We should never assume "the rest of the world" will see things as "we" do.

....

@Ubute I don't think the relatives of the old lady was any typical Indonesian family. When I was laying in the hospital waiting to be admitted into the operating theater, my gf met the relatives. They asked how it happened and they listened. They didn't display any anger whatsoever. They accepted what happened and even told my gf not to worry about any expense at all. They will cover all of it. 

My parents flew to Jakarta, met them and apologized, again my parents didn't see any anger nor hatred in their eyes. 

I myself couldn't move from my bed. I sent my regret, admitted my mistakes and deeply apologize to them via voice messages. 

They replied very kindly and said that all have been forgiven.

How could they lost a relative and yet forgave so sincerely? There was such a huge remorse in me, because I haven't even forgiven myself and they already did. From the burial place, I knew that they came from money and power. If they wanted to sue, they were more than able to do it. Yet they didn't choose to do so.

I believe this kind of traits were not easy to find anywhere in the world. So many lessons to be learned about humility, forgiveness and kindness. 

[supercurio]

Extremely sad story @nalds for everyone involved.
Thanks for the courage to share, I hope it will help processing the trauma.

Although the feedback here varies from nuanced to an extreme or the other in terms of understanding and responsibilities, it's likely due to cultural and legal differences between countries, on top of personal experience.

Regardless of how accurately you are able to tell the story given the situation and guilt, it serves as an excellent reminder to all of us on precautions to take around pedestrians.
Still it remains an accident. There could have been no accident here with multiple "if", but accidents happen.

Main lessons learned or confirmations for me:

• In case a pedestrian or a vehicle show hesitation, always slow down to walking speed or a stop
• Anybody can react and move unpredictably around us. Not only kids and pets

 

I have a somewhat related story, the only crash on my own wheels so far, different outcome.

A few months ago, riding in a pedestrian zone at running speed, around pedestrians. That day I forgot my finger bike bell.
At some point a 30-something year old man heard the faint sound of my wheel behind him, as I was preparing to go around him from the left.
Surprised by what he saw when looking behind him, he quickly jumped out of the way to give me even more space.

That sounds good, but somehow his jump was right on me instead of away, for no explicable reason as I was manoeuvring around his left.

Not being skilled enough at the time for this kind of quick reactions, I did my best to avoid him and barely touched his jacket, and fell heavily to the left.
I got some road rash and knee and wrist guards worked well, helmet took a hit too. At least, the pedestrian had nothing at all and stayed to apologise profusely.

Lessons I've learned from this one:

• Avoid riding around pedestrians as much as possible
• Always wear the finger bell, people here expect a bike behind them and know how to react
• Ring the bell extensively, several times if needed, early enough to avoid last-second reaction
• The bell loudness must be suitable to alert without startling
• Be in full alert around any human or animal, regardless of age or condition
• Establish eye contact, smile and nod to make people at ease if possible. They smiles back.
• Slow down to walking speed or stop in case of doubt. It's effortless to accelerate again on an EUC anyway

Applying these rules worked well so far.
There might be differences between countries on what the best guidelines are tho.

Edited November 26, 2020 by supercurio

[supercurio]

On 11/22/2020 at 2:41 PM, TheMasterSword said:

No one likes what they see: OP posted their story, to assuage their feelings of guilt (proven with nalds own words), downplayed their role, but ended up confessing guilt by letting it slip that he saw the poor old woman from far away, yet did not slow down for her <== Those two things are what makes us mad about the whole situation, no one likes being lied to or used as an emotional tampon. If the guy told the story accurately, I don't think there would be so much rebuttal in the thread, but with each passing post from OP, he reveals more and more of what actually happened. Hopefully a Jakartan prosecutor is seeing all this.

 

@nalds is human and as we read in his messages he's already likely at the limit of pain and guilt he can experience right now.

I think it's expected that there are things that appear as inconsistencies in how he tells the story for two reasons:

• Self blame can go only as far one person can tolerate without going to full breakdown or self-harm. Let's not push him there.
• He tells the story as he experienced it. That's why it's inconsistent and makes no sense on some aspects, it's true to how he lived it then.
  For instance, how much he slowed down (not enough - in retrospect) was suitable with his perception at the time, not expecting this wrong direction jump.

I hope that participants here can avoid being too upset or judgmental from the inconsistencies or contradictions, they're very much expected in this situation, we still have enough elements to learn from what went wrong and can be grateful for that.

The OP exposes himself in a very vulnerable time. He doesn't even have to.

We can be kind towards him and at least use understanding of psychology instead of attributing malice.
There will be a lengthy process for him before things make sense and can converge and he can move on, the rest is already done.

[.....]

On 11/23/2020 at 8:05 PM, Ubute said:

A

 

Again I feel there is a cultural gulf in evidence here. Why would it get violent? This is Indonesia, not America. This is not an individualist gun culture with violence seen as the first and inevitable solution to every problem. Gotham, isn't that where Batman comes from? I'm far from expert, but I don't think Indonesia shares the cultural trope of masked vigilanties taking the law into their own hands and killing baddies. For all their faults and difficulties with "modernisation", Indonesians are far more likely to negotiate a socially acceptable solution between aggrieved parties than to resort to violence.

I've just had a long conversation with a friend who lived in Indonesia for many years to check that I'm being fair and reasonable in my responses here. He said of course there are all types of people in Indonesia, just as there are in America and the west. There are criminal villages and mafia type organisations. If the EUC rider had hit someone from one of those places he'd probably be dead already. But he isn't, and by far the most likely outcome will be a protracted negotiation through layers of community leaders resulting in some sort of financial settlement. My friend points out that there are eight layers of government in Indonesia, right down to village heads or elders who might be in charge of as few as 40 families. Nobody would just knock on the door of the woman's family, they would approach through the village heirarchy. In Indonesia any emotional outburst or display of anger is seen as serious loss of face and just doesn't happen. Road rage as it occurs in the west is virtually non-existent in Indonesia.

My friend agreed that anyone crossing the road takes their life in their hands and is expected to keep going steadily, but he also pointed out that in the chaos of Indonesian traffic, the one rule, the only rule that really counts, is don't hit anyone.

Regarding speaking to a "professional", I'm not sure who this would be in the Indonesian context. Negotiations might involve local leaders and extended family members. An incident like this might be seen more in a community context than as a legal battle between individuals. We should never assume "the rest of the world" will see things as "we" do.

The final point that my wise friend made was why am I getting involved in an on-line discussion about this stuff?  Don't I know that you can't "win" arguments in forums and chat rooms? Don't I realise there will always be people who want to blame and criticise, who view the world from an ignorant, self-centred or even xenophobic perspective? I myself have just indulged in an offensive generalisation about America being a violent gun culture. Here in Tasmania I can almost hear the roar of disapproval from all those millions of Americans who don't feel that way.

Isn't this supposed to be an EUC geek forum, my friend asked.

I really like my new dual-axis knee guards...

Damn bro... You really should have a mic in your hand so you can just wink, drop dat bitch and walk off like a baller. 

Glad you like the knee guards!

[Ubute]

20 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

Damn bro... You really should have a mic in your hand so you can just wink, drop dat bitch and walk off like a baller. 

Glad you like the knee guards!

As an Australian I don't get the slang but I'm accepting it as a compliment! Thanks, Shane.

[Justin Boivin]

@supercurio thanks for sharing that. What I find helps is riding with music playing on the bluetooth speaker. Yes I'm sure some might find it annoying but pedestrians can hear me coming before they see.

[UniGrad]

On 11/23/2020 at 12:11 AM, TheMasterSword said:

No one likes what they see: OP posted their story, to assuage their feelings of guilt (proven with nalds own words), downplayed their role, but ended up confessing guilt by letting it slip that he saw the poor old woman from far away, yet did not slow down for her <== Those two things are what makes us mad about the whole situation, no one likes being lied to or used as an emotional tampon. If the guy told the story accurately, I don't think there would be so much rebuttal in the thread, but with each passing post from OP, he reveals more and more of what actually happened. Hopefully a Jakartan prosecutor is seeing all this.

 

Please learn about how traffic works in these places. Read some of the other posts about this. I myself have been to Manila in the Philippines and it's complete chaos. Asking someone to stop in the middle of the road because they see an old lady crossing in the distance is completely absurd in that context. If you had to do that you'd be stopping every 50 metres causing an accident every time. Like others have said, when you cross the road in these places you simply walk onto the road and hope the traffic blends around you. Or you do some frogger style moves as you progress. Getting the picture? CHAOS!!! I'm not saying it's good. I'm saying that's the way it is.

Makes sense too that the old lady jumped back. Poor old lady living in that chaotic world had no choice but to play this 3rd world game of frogger. And poor OP now has her death on his conscience. And a bunch of well off folk calling him a murderer to boot 

Others calling him a troll and a liar. Others openly hoping that he gets prosecuted or imprisoned. But seems like he's taking it all like a Champ. Props to the OP

And remember that the OP is driving on these super dangerous roads.................................................... on an EUC!!! 

It also makes sense that the family wasn't angry at all. Because they of course know how dangerous these roads are. Most likely the family felt guilty themselves for neglecting the old lady in such a way that she would have to be out crossing these crazy streets all alone. Makes perfect sense. I feel really bad for the poor old lady. Should've had someone to help her with grocery shopping and other essentials. But she obviously had no one. For all we know, the OP cares more about her than her own family.

I've read every post here and I struggle to see why I might feel that the OP is using me as an "Emotional Tampon" 

This guy has been polite and his story has been consistent enough for my liking. You can't expect EXACT perfection in a story that involves this kind of heart wrenching devastation. People's memories are not like computer hard drives. People's feelings influence how they remember an event too. The brain will even bury certain details in order to protect itself from agony. No one can help this.

And to those angry at the OP for not putting her death in the title. Have you ever had to deal with this kind of extreme event??
Many people wouldn't even be able to think about it. Let alone talk about it. Let alone write a post about it in a public forum. Let alone put the death in the damn title

Lastly... those who doubt the story because there's no news article. First off, the family didn't press charges. Secondly, do you have any idea how many road casualties occur every single hour in these places?? I think not

I'm out...

Edited December 1, 2020 by UniGrad
added emoji