An advocacy for non-suspension EUCs

[TheseusMinor]

Evidently, EUCs with no suspension are more cognitively tasking because one must be more alert to anticipate more feedback from road irregularities - especially on off-road paths. Non-suspension wheels afford a riding experience that is very dynamic, requiring presence of mind and whole body involvement to make the ride stable, comfortable and enjoyable. 

The extreme example is the Ninebot One Z. It's almost magical how, after about a week, that hard-to-turn, spine-shatteringly dense, frustratingly tread-following EUC becomes enjoyable. The extra effort in non-suspension EUCs, that is abated in suspension EUCs, can be enjoyable as a function of experience and riding style.

So go for a non-suspension wheel if you generally prefer - or when you're in the mood for - a wholly absorbing riding experience at all speed regimes, where applying beyond-basic technique and flare almost feels like performing a martial art exhibition or dominating the dancefloor.

[atdlzpae]

???

My non-suspended EUC takes about 0% of cognition. Subconsciousness does the riding, while I'm left to enjoy the views and listen to podcasts.
It only takes conscious thought when something new or unexpected happens.

To me almost all forms of transportation (walking, driving, riding an EUC/horse/elephant, sitting on a bus, ...) are completely subconscious leaving me to ponder important life questions.
Same thing happens with video games. Once you play that Doom level 5 times, you can delegate demon-slaying to the subconscious, while you plan your next vacations.

Edited November 8, 2020 by atdlzpae

[TheseusMinor]

5 hours ago, atdlzpae said:

???

My non-suspended EUC takes about 0% of cognition. Subconsciousness does the riding, while I'm left to enjoy the views and listen to podcasts.
It only takes conscious thought when something new or unexpected happens.

To me almost all forms of transportation (walking, driving, riding an EUC/horse/elephant, sitting on a bus, ...) are completely subconscious leaving me to ponder important life questions.
Same thing happens with video games. Once you play that Doom level 5 times, you can delegate demon-slaying to the subconscious, while you plan your next vacations.

Yes, the subconscious does most of the work in familiar situation. With suspensions EUCs, it's the subconscious and suspension aiding the rider. In either case, I'm not talking about situations requiring "0% of cognition" because I did mention presence of mind..

[RockyTop]

Back years ago my first car was a 57'Chevy. It had a giant steering wheel without power steering. It was also a manual shift (M22 w/inline ramrod Hurst)  My next car was a 69' GTO automatic.  I loved that car but I was used to the non power steering. I could not feel the road anymore. I felt like one of my most important scenes were gone. The steering wheel was numb.  And without a clutch............ 

I like the suspension wheels but I am not entirely sold on them. I actually like the feel of the road.  ( And I want my 57' back) 

[TheseusMinor]

3 hours ago, RockyTop said:

Back years ago my first car was a 57'Chevy. It had a giant steering wheel without power steering. It was also a manual shift (M22 w/inline ramrod Hurst)  My next car was a 69' GTO automatic.  I loved that car but I was used to the non power steering. I could not feel the road anymore. I felt like one of my most important scenes were gone. The steering wheel was numb.  And without a clutch............ 

I like the suspension wheels but I am not entirely sold on them. I actually like the feel of the road.  ( And I want my 57' back) 

Yeah, I agree.

Insofar as I have a collection of wheels - say 3 or 5, the main differentiator between all of them would be the use cases rather than performance or looks. The wheel I'd use for cruising would either be a big wheel like the Monster and/or a suspension wheel like the V11. And maybe the S18 for jumping off off-road bike ramps - which is very fun and broke my 16x' rim!

[travsformation]

14 hours ago, atdlzpae said:

My non-suspended EUC takes about 0% of cognition. Subconsciousness does the riding, while I'm left to enjoy the views and listen to podcasts.

The roads where you live are clearly in much better shape than where I live

While the riding is subconscious, the environmental awareness involved (potholes and whatnot) is much higher without suspension, especially on smaller diameter wheels.

[travsformation]

On 11/6/2020 at 7:12 PM, TheseusMinor said:

Evidently, EUCs with no suspension are more cognitively tasking because one must be more alert to anticipate more feedback from road irregularities - especially on off-road paths. Non-suspension wheels afford a riding experience that is very dynamic, requiring presence of mind and whole body involvement to make the ride stable, comfortable and enjoyable. 

The extreme example is the Ninebot One Z. It's almost magical how, after about a week, that hard-to-turn, spine-shatteringly dense, frustratingly tread-following EUC becomes enjoyable. The extra effort in non-suspension EUCs, that is abated in suspension EUCs, can be enjoyable as a function of experience and riding style.

So go for a non-suspension wheel if you generally prefer - or when you're in the mood for - a wholly absorbing riding experience at all speed regimes, where applying beyond-basic technique and flare almost feels like performing a martial art exhibition or dominating the dancefloor.

That's a good case for non-suspended wheels, I like how you (so eloquently) spun that

I also agree with you (and @RockyTop) about the feedback from the road. Unless it's cobblestone, I thoroughly enjoy it

[TheseusMinor]

2 hours ago, travsformation said:

That's a good case for non-suspended wheels, I like how you (so eloquently) spun that

Right? The 15 minutes of composing the OP was worth it: Now I don't have to fork out $2000 for a suspension wheel! 

[travsformation]

1 hour ago, TheseusMinor said:

Right? The 15 minutes of composing the OP was worth it: Now I don't have to fork out $2000 for a suspension wheel! 

Indeed!

But I can play devil's advocate and tell you that for the ultimate whole-body involvement and presence of mind, you ought to buy a Sherman! 😜

[The Fat Unicyclist]

Two key points about a non-suspension wheel is that there will always be less to go wrong and it will always be cheaper...

Based on this alone there will always be a place for non-suspension EUC.

Edited November 11, 2020 by The Fat Unicyclist

[meepmeepmayer]

A suspension that can be switched off by "locking the cylinder" (like on the S18) might be a good compromise.

I don't see myself ever not wanting suspension though.

6 hours ago, The Fat Unicyclist said:

Twp key points about a non-suspension wheel is that there will always be less to go wrong and it will always be cheaper...

Based on this alone there will always be a place for non-suspension EUC.

Either as an alternative way to build a suspension, or maybe just as a cheaper suspension-lite variant, I always thought you could replace the hard part between motor and metal tire rim with a ring of some soft material. Mechanically easy and unproblematic, cheap to build, still bouncy.

[Unventor]

Now I am one of those that prefer my V11 over any other wheel I own or have tested to far. 

However, I am not sure how the high pedals will work during slippery winter conditions. 

I also think as a new rider it helps to learn to ride to feel how the wheel behaves in different condition. 

But like @The Fat Unicyclist pointed out suspension comes at a cost, like money, complexity and space that could be used for something different.

I do think this will be like bicycles to have none suspension, semi (1 wheel) suspension and full suspension versions. I think we will see something similar with EUCs. It comes down to how much travel you need in the suspension.  

I think the few suspension EUCs that we have see so far is just the tip of the iceberg so far. 

[TheseusMinor]

20 minutes ago, Unventor said:

I think the few suspension EUCs that we have see so far is just the tip of the iceberg so far. 

Upon the release of the V11 and S18, Ninebot was getting excited about getting back into the market. But when they witnessed Begode falter with the EX, "Whoah, hold on boys. Not yet!! PEVs for nursing homes! Let's stay focused!!"

[TheseusMinor]

16 hours ago, travsformation said:

Indeed!

But I can play devil's advocate and tell you that for the ultimate whole-body involvement and presence of mind, you ought to buy a Sherman! 😜

Living in Africa, I'll probably never get to even test ride one - and it looks like the very wheel I need to evade rebel scum.

[travsformation]

On 11/9/2020 at 7:41 PM, TheseusMinor said:

Living in Africa, I'll probably never get to even test ride one - and it looks like the very wheel I need to evade rebel scum.

I didn't test one before buying either. I just knew I needed a tank with the engine of a Ferrari, so I ordered one.

If you can afford it, don't think twice. Especially if it's just what you need for your evasion manoeuvres..

 

Edited November 11, 2020 by travsformation

[Boilerdog]

While I do agree with the OP in the fact that there will always be a place for non-suspension wheels. But...suspension wheels are just getting started. Anyone here old enough to remember mountain bikes before they had suspension? Because I am. I remember hearing almost these same conversations then. The suspension in these first bikes was terrible. Case in point the Pro-Flex Animal. It didn’t even have real shocks just rubber bumpers but almost everyone I rode with wanted one. I rode one once it was garbage. It felt like an expensive pogo stick. But the tech progressed into the badass downhill bikes we have today. Which in turn helped in part to inspire the suspension wheels we are talking about. Don’t get me wrong I started on a V8 and I will keep it forever it’s a solid little machine. But I got my S18 a few weeks ago and holy crap what a monster in the trails. You really can’t even compare the two. It would be like comparing a Honda Civic to a Rally car. I understand they are pricey at this point but that will change eventually as the tech progresses. Also I have both and I really don’t think one or the other requires anymore cognitive tasking than the other. You don’t keep your head up on either one and you are going down. Period. 

[mike_bike_kite]

I'm "almost" in the market for a new wheel but I can't say that any of the suspension wheels appeal to me. All the suspension models are either too complex, too heavy or too fragile or all three. I like EUCs because of their rugged simplicity but suspended wheels are anything but. Ideally I just want an 18" wheel, 3" tyre with decent range and that can cruise in the high 20's. I also want a wheel that's subtle enough to walk into a supermarket without security asking me to chain it up outside. Oh, and it would be nice if I can afford it. These suspended wheels just don't cut it with me. 

[.....]

7 minutes ago, mike_bike_kite said:

I'm "almost" in the market for a new wheel but I can't say that any of the suspension wheels appeal to me. All the suspension models are either too complex, too heavy or too fragile or all three. I like EUCs because of their rugged simplicity but suspended wheels are anything but. Ideally I just want an 18" wheel, 3" tyre with decent range and that can cruise in the high 20's. I also want a wheel that's subtle enough to walk into a supermarket without security asking me to chain it up outside. Oh, and it would be nice if I can afford it. These suspended wheels just don't cut it with me. 

So basically, an 18xl? I hear ya on the incognito wheels. I've walked mine thru the store and a lot of people dont even notice. I Dont imagine the s18 or v11 or sherm would be quite so graceful. I am grateful we have choices, and I'm sure a few people are lured in by simplicity of designs and finesse'. Let us know what wheel you end up with. Theres a LOT of solid choices and lots are going for sale as used/cheaper.

[mike_bike_kite]

2 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

So basically, an 18xl? 

I like the XL a lot but the current price seems way over the top for a 3 year old wheel and anyway, I'd prefer a 3" wheel. I like the 16X, it's a 17.5" wheel which is near enough, but I'm a big guy, getting on a bit, and don't fancy a cut out in the high 20's. Then there's all the 100v wheels that offer speed I'd never use at the expense of range. The old 84v MSX can be had for a great price at the moment but I don't like the trolley handle or the pedals or the style so I'd just be buying a wheel I don't like. That leaves me still looking for my next wheel  

[Mike Sacristan]

8 hours ago, mike_bike_kite said:

I like the XL a lot but the current price seems way over the top for a 3 year old wheel and anyway, I'd prefer a 3" wheel. I like the 16X, it's a 17.5" wheel which is near enough, but I'm a big guy, getting on a bit, and don't fancy a cut out in the high 20's. Then there's all the 100v wheels that offer speed I'd never use at the expense of range. The old 84v MSX can be had for a great price at the moment but I don't like the trolley handle or the pedals or the style so I'd just be buying a wheel I don't like. That leaves me still looking for my next wheel  

The range on the 100v wheels is only an issue when at speed.  So you will be spared.
The MSP gets better range than the 16X and att higher speed towards the end.
Looks like that leaves you with the Nik+. Nicely priced at Ali Loomo Store. Or you can get faster delivery from Denis at EUC Sale if he has them in stock.

I have yet to try a suspension wheel... but after riding my Fat Nik and doing like today a 75km cruise riding at around 40kmh with some peaks up to 50kmh and above and having 35% battery left I would have trouble going back to a wheel with less range. 

[seage]

I don't think theres a competition here. Like, at all. Most serious riders seem to have at minimum 2 wheels to deal with their needs, as we've all learned that there is no 1 perfect wheel. I just got the monster, and i love that beast for the road. But since i ride softmode, i touch the grass, and the pedal dip is insane, loll. Maybe i'll have to switch to hard if i ever try a path setting, but thats a real issue, so, it stays as my city and mid range speed cruiser. But i also love offroading. For that, it calls for a different machine. If the S18 offered more power, then i'd probably get that as a second, because its like a mountain bike. And im sure we'll be getting better itterations for trails in the future. This is just the start. These arguments are as silly as comparing a road bike to a mountain bike, or a dirtbike to a sports bike. They have their places and functions. And sure cross over, Hybrids and explorer bikes, yes, but for specific needs, there will always be a reason for someone to pick one over the other. We're much closer to bikes in terms of function, than cars. No matter what happens, there will always be use cases and arguments for both types, and many enthusiasts will probably have one of each in their stable in the future, once they've gone through a few face lifts. 

[mike_bike_kite]

3 hours ago, Mike Sacristan said:

Looks like that leaves you with the Nik+. Nicely priced at Ali Loomo Store.

Damn you Mike, now I'm compulsively watching videos of the Nik+ and trying to work out whether it would fit my (admittedly rather simple) life. I'm quite a bit larger than you I believe at 6'3" and 96Kg. Most of my rides are under 10 miles but I would like to explore further. I tend to cruise at the top speed of my 16S and feel I need something a little quicker especially when I need to match faster traffic but I'm definitely not a speed demon. I take my KS to the supermarket and coffee shops without a second thought, could I do the same with the Nik? Also does that shiny black surface scratch up badly in little slide down the road? And can the rear light be made more like a light?

[BFE Duke]

Wow, let's celebrate inferior products because they make us work harder. Who needs a computer? Let's just write everything out on pieces of paper. After all, it's more cognitively tasking. Who needs an excavator when we have shovels? Who needs sewing machines? We can sew everything by hand. 

And let's go ahead and ignore the fact that suspension fixes things that no amount of "cognitive tasking" can fix, like the road grip that is necessary for handling, braking and acceleration at higher speeds. 

Sarcasm aside, keep in mind that suspension is even more needed on EUCs than on bicycles. If you become airborne temporarily on a bicycle, chances are your landing might suck. But if you become airborne on an EUC and it overleans in the air, that's a overspeed cutout. I would love to see some statistics, but I'd reckon the number of crashes on EUCs are orders of magnitude higher than on bicycles/ebikes. 

[Mike Sacristan]

1 hour ago, mike_bike_kite said:

Damn you Mike, now I'm compulsively watching videos of the Nik+ and trying to work out whether it would fit my (admittedly rather simple) life. I'm quite a bit larger than you I believe at 6'3" and 96Kg. Most of my rides are under 10 miles but I would like to explore further. I tend to cruise at the top speed of my 16S and feel I need something a little quicker especially when I need to match faster traffic but I'm definitely not a speed demon. I take my KS to the supermarket and coffee shops without a second thought, could I do the same with the Nik? Also does that shiny black surface scratch up badly in little slide down the road? And can the rear light be made more like a light?

Yes I am aware of your size and weight and considered it when suggesting the Nik+. Tobbe was the first in our group to own the Nik+ (although it was the 1845Wh one with the 18650 cells) and he weighed 225 lbs at the time. Rasmus also weighs 225 lbs and rides a Nik+ (1845Wh). Sebastian weighs 220lbs and has tried my Nik a few times and loves it.

The Nik will get a bit scratched here and there but it is no big deal. I have dropped mine around 20 times in the forest and it got scuffed a bit. Tobias overleaned his at 60kmh and Christoffer overleaned his at 75kmh and both wheels are fine.

I bring mine to the shops and restaurants all the time. It depends though if shop owners, etc would be picky. In my case I only had one encounter with a security guard at a supermarket near closing time.. he asked me what it was. I said it was an electric unicycle. He said that mopeds normally weren't allowed in but in this case he would make an exception. I bit my tongue to say the least. 

Some people have pulled the whole Nik apart and gotten rid of the GW logo at the back to make it more like a regular light. I am thinking of going another way and getting one of those XLites and putting it on either the wheel or my backpack/helmet/hoodie for visibility as I think the light is too low to the ground anyway.

The Nik will solve your speed and range issues with a nice buffer which will make it nice and safe for you. Also the 1800Wh is rather nimble in comparison to my chunky 2664Wh version but for me range + speed is king because I love exploring and sometimes I want to ride 15 miles away to have lunch and all you can eat cake like I did today... and ended up doing 50 miles because I did some more cruising afterwards. All while speeding like an idiot half the time... but still nowhere near the limits of the wheel.

[atdlzpae]

1 hour ago, BFE Duke said:

Wow, let's celebrate inferior products because they make us work harder. Who needs a computer? Let's just write everything out on pieces of paper. After all, it's more cognitively tasking. Who needs an excavator when we have shovels? Who needs sewing machines? We can sew everything by hand.

I don't think that your first two comparisons work, you're pretty much comparing apples to oranges. Excavator has completely different use case from a shovel. So does a computer.

I think that the best analogy is manual vs automatic transmission. Automatic is better in (almost) every case... Yet I don't need one, manual does the same thing. And so, I opted for a cheaper car with manual transmission because why pay more when I don't mind the discomfort?

Will suspension make me ride safer or faster? No, I'll still limit myself to 30km/h. And so, I'm not willing to pay extra for it. You do you, I'll do me. We'll both be happier this way.

Edited November 12, 2020 by atdlzpae