An advocacy for non-suspension EUCs

[wheel-life]

 

1 hour ago, Mike Sacristan said:

Yes I am aware of your size and weight and considered it when suggesting the Nik+. Tobbe was the first in our group to own the Nik+ (although it was the 1845Wh one with the 18650 cells) and he weighed 225 lbs at the time. Rasmus also weighs 225 lbs and rides a Nik+ (1845Wh). Sebastian weighs 220lbs and has tried my Nik a few times and loves it.

The Nik will get a bit scratched here and there but it is no big deal. I have dropped mine around 20 times in the forest and it got scuffed a bit. Tobias overleaned his at 60kmh and Christoffer overleaned his at 75kmh and both wheels are fine.

I bring mine to the shops and restaurants all the time. It depends though if shop owners, etc would be picky. In my case I only had one encounter with a security guard at a supermarket near closing time.. he asked me what it was. I said it was an electric unicycle. He said that mopeds normally weren't allowed in but in this case he would make an exception. I bit my tongue to say the least. 

Some people have pulled the whole Nik apart and gotten rid of the GW logo at the back to make it more like a regular light. I am thinking of going another way and getting one of those XLites and putting it on either the wheel or my backpack/helmet/hoodie for visibility as I think the light is too low to the ground anyway.

The Nik will solve your speed and range issues with a nice buffer which will make it nice and safe for you. Also the 1800Wh is rather nimble in comparison to my chunky 2664Wh version but for me range + speed is king because I love exploring and sometimes I want to ride 15 miles away to have lunch and all you can eat cake like I did today... and ended up doing 50 miles because I did some more cruising afterwards. All while speeding like an idiot half the time... but still nowhere near the limits of the wheel.

That video above and your & other forum users' input were a big reason I went with the 16X when I was trying to pick between 16X and Nik+ a couple mos ago. I picked the 16X because of my lower top speeds and haven't regretted my choice, it's been great for me but I'm awfully tempted to check out the Nik+ with the 2660Wh battery next spring (if I don't have my heart set on suspension with the V11), that range sounds amazing. I've been getting about 50-60km with the 16X with my 100kg riding weight which has been nice but would love just a bit more as I really like to explore. I think I know my riding style well enough now that I won't be tempted to push the higher speeds even with a wheel that can provide them. I went ahead and bookmarked that Ali Loomo link, thanks 

[BFE Duke]

3 hours ago, atdlzpae said:

I don't think that your first two comparisons work, you're pretty much comparing apples to oranges. Excavator has completely different use case from a shovel. So does a computer.

I think that the best analogy is manual vs automatic transmission. Automatic is better in (almost) every case... Yet I don't need one, manual does the same thing. And so, I opted for a cheaper car with manual transmission because why pay more when I don't mind the discomfort?

Will suspension make me ride safer or faster? No, I'll still limit myself to 30km/h. And so, I'm not willing to pay extra for it. You do you, I'll do me. We'll both be happier this way.

Lol, that is not even close to the same thing. In spirited driving, manual transmission can actually be preferred because it gives you more control. But in any kind of high speed racing, having no suspension = death. Sus/no sus cannot be compared to manual vs automatic, because (1) manually choosing gear requires a tiny amount of physical effort and (2) the results are the same if the automatic transmission happens to choose the same gear at the same time. At higher speeds, having your knees choose which "gear" to be in all the time creates considerably more effort, and you will still have less grip because the suspension has mechanical advantage. With suspension only the unsprung weight has to move, whereas without you would need to press on the weight of the whole wheel. A well tuned suspension will hug the ground in a way that even the best knees cannot.

Don't get me wrong, if you're only going 30 km/h over smooth terrain, then you probably don't need a high performance wheel. I'm just saying if people want more speed or want to go over rough terrain, then it would reduce crashes significantly, as well as improve handling. The current suspended offerings are just first iterations, and I'd think sooner or later all the high performance models will probably gravitate towards it. 

Edited November 12, 2020 by BFE Duke

[TheseusMinor]

6 hours ago, BFE Duke said:

Wow, let's celebrate inferior products because they make us work harder.

Wow, let's be parochial and only consider our own riding style and subgenre/use-case.

A suspension bicycle is as inferior to non-suspension bicycles for use-cases like flatland BMX, as a suspension EUC is inferior to something like a non-suspension 14" EUC for technical flatland tricks. It's not a matter of technological improvement - suspension will always be inferior for some use cases.

And by the way, to advocate for something is not necessarily to be against the alternative.

Edited November 12, 2020 by TheseusMinor

[mike_bike_kite]

On 11/11/2020 at 7:46 PM, Mike Sacristan said:

Looks like that leaves you with the Nik+. Nicely priced at Ali Loomo Store.

I'm trying to buy the wheel on Ali (the only place I can afford it) the price shows in GBP but then it won't allow me to put it in my shopping cart. I can't see anywhere to ask a question on there and have no idea how long they'd take to reply if I did. Do you have a better link?

[wheel-life]

13 minutes ago, mike_bike_kite said:

I'm trying to buy the wheel on Ali (the only place I can afford it) the price shows in GBP but then it won't allow me to put it in my shopping cart. I can't see anywhere to ask a question on there and have no idea how long they'd take to reply if I did. Do you have a better link?

This link work? That's the one I saved: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000139012385.html

 

[Mike Sacristan]

49 minutes ago, mike_bike_kite said:

I'm trying to buy the wheel on Ali (the only place I can afford it) the price shows in GBP but then it won't allow me to put it in my shopping cart. I can't see anywhere to ask a question on there and have no idea how long they'd take to reply if I did. Do you have a better link?

Did you choose "color" 1800Wh first? Otherwise you will get a message saying "please fill in the required information first".

The Nikola Plus 1800Wh is also available from chicway for 10GBP cheaper and they accept PayPal.

Chicway is actually Green Fashion from AliExpress. Many Ali sellers sell through alternate channels like DHGate as well as Ali takes quite a large chunk of their winnings.
Ali is safe to buy from because you can open a dispute within the first 15 days if there is any trouble and Ali will quickly take your side.

Chicway is also safe to buy from as PayPal tends to take the consumer's side.

Purchasing from Ali is usually a tiny bit cheaper when using the app from a phone. Sometimes 1% cheaper sometimes 5% cheaper depending on current deals.
Delivery times will be insanely long now as Singles Day, Black Friday, Christmas, New Year, etc is around the corner.

Denis should have a few more Nikola in stock (latest batch) and euc.sale sells them for a little over 100GBP more than Ali.
 

[BFE Duke]

19 hours ago, TheseusMinor said:

Wow, let's be parochial and only consider our own riding style and subgenre/use-case.

A suspension bicycle is as inferior to non-suspension bicycles for use-cases like flatland BMX, as a suspension EUC is inferior to something like a non-suspension 14" EUC for technical flatland tricks. It's not a matter of technological improvement - suspension will always be inferior for some use cases.

And by the way, to advocate for something is not necessarily to be against the alternative.

That comment was directly in your assertion that products that were more cognitively tasking and require more alertness was a good thing. I did not actually refer to any specific use cases or models. It's one thing to say that trick EUCs don't require suspension. It's another thing entirely to say, and I quote, 

Quote

Evidently, EUCs with no suspension are more cognitively tasking because one must be more alert to anticipate more feedback from road irregularities - especially on off-road paths. Non-suspension wheels afford a riding experience that is very dynamic, requiring presence of mind and whole body involvement to make the ride stable, comfortable and enjoyable. 

The extreme example is the Ninebot One Z. It's almost magical how, after about a week, that hard-to-turn, spine-shatteringly dense, frustratingly tread-following EUC becomes enjoyable. The extra effort in non-suspension EUCs, that is abated in suspension EUCs, can be enjoyable as a function of experience and riding style.

So go for a non-suspension wheel if you generally prefer - or when you're in the mood for - a wholly absorbing riding experience at all speed regimes, where applying beyond-basic technique and flare almost feels like performing a martial art exhibition or dominating the dancefloor.

So let's not move the goalpost here. 

[TheseusMinor]

10 hours ago, BFE Duke said:

So let's not move the goalpost here. 

Who's moving the goal post? The joy one derives from EUCs, bikes etc is based on preferences in riding style, use-case and other ephemeral psychometric characteristics which you have no access to. It's like criticising someone who loves old stick-shift cars as "celebrating inferior products because they make him work harder."

Your subsequent paragraphs betray the same bigotry: "grip at high speeds" "when you're airborne" - as though everyone rides like you do. I never go that fast or high. I've never had a cut-off in my 2 years of EUC riding. I ride my way, and so the pleasures I derive and the dangers I may encounter are not identical to yours. Hence I'd never spout in an EUC speed demon thread "Wow, let's celebrate insanely dangerous products because they make us go faster when there's so much more to enjoy about EUCs!!"

[xiiijojjo]

I'll pay attention to suspension in 2-3 years when having it only poses benefits. 

[TheseusMinor]

8 hours ago, xiiijojjo said:

I'll pay attention to suspension in 2-3 years when having it only poses benefits. 

Though I'd grant that someone who drives to a mountain bike trail, pulls the wheel out of their truck and does relatively short distance extreme off-roading - jumping ramps and rock ledges - would argue that the perfect suspension wheel is already here: the KS-S18. I'm gonna get one for this particular use case, in fact.  

[xiiijojjo]

2 hours ago, TheseusMinor said:

- would argue that the perfect suspension wheel is already here: the KS-S18. I'm gonna get one for this particular use case, in fact.  

I am sure the Ford Model T was considered perfect peak performance at the time of release too... That doesn't make it a "good" vehicle though, it only made it the best thing you could get at the moment and i sure am not settling for a Model T knowing good and well this euc suspension wave has only just begun.

Also take in mind that you have not had any significant amount of people riding these yet and once more people get a hold of these suspension wheels and put down several 100-1000 km+ you are going to see a scary amount of people report problems in these. The amount of reported issues with both EX, v11 and S18 suspension (and other aspects) already seem alarmingly high to me as someone who has witnessed the release and associated reported issues of most wheels since the Msuper v3, and when taking into consideration the relatively small amount of people who have these + the incredibly short amount of time these have been ridden it becomes apparent to me that i am not forking out 2000-3500 dollaroonies to alpha test this new technology just like i didn't get on oculus vr headset gen1 just because it was the best thing at the time.

[.....]

3 hours ago, TheseusMinor said:

Though I'd grant that someone who drives to a mountain bike trail, pulls the wheel out of their truck and does relatively short distance extreme off-roading - jumping ramps and rock ledges - would argue that the perfect suspension wheel is already here: the KS-S18. I'm gonna get one for this particular use case, in fact.  

Surely this is sarcastic? You HAVE been paying attention to the s18 thread havent you? I think we are a little ways away from being able to say that ANY suspension wheels are near perfect, or even close. But, they are closer now than when there was none.

Edited November 16, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[h3X]

I definitely still find a ton of enjoyment in riding my V8, especially off-road, although I commute on the V11.

[TheseusMinor]

On 11/16/2020 at 4:35 AM, xiiijojjo said:

I am sure the Ford Model T was considered perfect peak performance at the time of release too... That doesn't make it a "good" vehicle though, it only made it the best thing you could get at the moment and i sure am not settling for a Model T knowing good and well this euc suspension wave has only just begun.

That's always the case - with any model of any vehicle, device or appliance you get - where "perfect" means the thing meets all your needs.

[Tokumeino]

As a cyclist, I've always strongly disliked suspension while I have to admit that a proper MTB is faster on MTB tracks than my gravel bike (especially for descent). There are many types of bikes. MTB didn't kill CX, and Gravel won't kill MTB.

I guess that different kind of wheels will coexist as well, for our greater pleasure. I've yet to try a suspended EUC and I could be wrong if - unlike bikes - suspended is strictly superior in every aspect to a regular EUC.

 

[MEX9]

It's been interesting reading this thread in 2022. I'm a new s18 rider with only 200km on the wheel so bear that in mind.. It blew my mind recently when I heard Afeez say that his preference was a non suspension wheel because he likes to feel the connection to the road. There have been times where I've been riding along and I've found the "floaty" feeling of the s18 a little disconcerting and I wondered if maybe I actually had a preference for a non suspension too - at least in some scenarios because I do like to ride mountain bike trails, albeit slow and steady. To that end, I'm considering (have pre-ordered) the v12 HT to fill that gap (I also like the double range, water proofing and similar weight features too). My only concern in this decision is whether I'd really miss that suspension. I suppose it's something a test ride should help me decide. 

[Tawpie]

I did the reverse... two hard tails, an S18 and a pre-ordered S20.

Yes, "feeling" the surface through the wheel is a unique experience and if it's something you like (like a sports car) it's difficult to move to suspension. But only because it's different. I'd warrant that a properly setup suspension actually has more connection with the road than a hard tail though. You just don't feel it in your knees.

What pushed me to accept the weight, cost and complexity of suspension was riding trails that had hoof and foot prints cast into them (formed in the mud, which dries). The constant "significant" bumping turned the ride into a max concentration, high exertion work out (gawd, I hate working out). It's not technical, it's just exhausting.

[MEX9]

I think I have a newer batch s18 but I still feel like I should do the due diligence and do the teardown, replace the tire, check the notorious suspension links, get the black crow cable protector and possibly some jump pads. The KaiPads v2 have my attention at the moment. I'm s*it scared of getting into a mess but if it helps me get to a properly set up suspension and a better tire it'll be worth it. Really appreciate your opinion, plus any others. 

[MEX9]

The thread post titled:

reasoning behind the suspension brick on the S18.

.. has also made me really think about whether or not my suspension is properly set up.

[Tawpie]

To avoid hijacking this thread, maybe start a new one @MEX9? What with all the suspension wheels coming out, a "how to set up my suspension" thread could be very interesting and informative.

[MEX9]

Yes you're right. Was starting to let my emotions get the better of me. I'm still collating all the research, mostly from this forum.

[Aztek]

On 11/6/2020 at 8:12 PM, TheseusMinor said:

So go for a non-suspension wheel if you generally prefer

Well, no

The problem with EUC is that falling is inevitable. So one has to be always geared up. 

With non-suspension ones falling due to even minor irregularities on the ground is guaranteed at certain point. And it is a killer for the knees. And one just can't ride it on certain terrains.

So, no, definitely.

[woke rider]

If the goal of getting an electric unicycle is “so I don’t have to pay attention to the road that much” because the rider is only using the euc for transportation, what’s the point of even riding an euc?

[Funky]

5 hours ago, Aztek said:

Well, no

The problem with EUC is that falling is inevitable. So one has to be always geared up. 

With non-suspension ones falling due to even minor irregularities on the ground is guaranteed at certain point. And it is a killer for the knees. And one just can't ride it on certain terrains.

So, no, definitely.

Each their own.. What type of rider you are, where you ride, how fast you go, is mayor play in probability of falling.

I haven't fallen since learning stage. (BTW - I still didn't have gear then. One time did a belly flop and second time i did a roll on ground sideways.) After that not a single fall.

3 years later not a single moment have been - where i would feel like i would fall.. Even while going over unseen dips/bumps on ground. Only way i would fall is when wheel stops working suddenly. Same for my dad, he has been riding almost 4 years now. Not a single fall while riding on asphalt. Have been some falls while going off-road. But most time he simply have "run" out of a fall. As wheel stays behind and he runs off..

Only in winter while ridding there's a chance of wheel sliding sideways. Even then you simply run out of the fall. (Naturally you would ride slower on snowy/icy sidewalks.)

If wheel doesn't suddenly stop working, or cut-out, etc.. Falling in simply user error. Going to fast on bumpy road. Not looking at road. Etc.. Some may ride all their life without falling once. (Knock on the hardy hard WOOD.)  

 

Sad thing is - the is no option of choosing. All new EUC have suspension... And that's bad, because there are some who would choose non-suspension wheels over suspension. Simply for it's simplicity.

2 minutes ago, earthtwin said:

If the goal of getting an electric unicycle is “so I don’t have to pay attention to the road that much” because the rider is only using the euc for transportation, what’s the point of even riding an euc?

To get from A to B? Duh... I'm only using my EUC for transportation.  

Edited November 15, 2023 by Funky

[woke rider]

Isn’t an electric bike or a car better suited for that @Funky?