An advocacy for non-suspension EUCs

[Funky]

18 minutes ago, bpong said:

im abit excited about the next euc im getting, it will be suspended....the only thing that makes me abit weary is dealing with the xtra weight...my old ride is only 45lbs... on average, these 'new' eucs from the past few years start around 77+lbs... i hope that i can adapt to the new xtra weight of these suspended wheels...have a great 2024 riding season Funky !!!

The weight of all the new euc's is the reason i'm not buying any new wheel.  I don't need/want anything over 55lbs. Till they start making smaller/lighter wheels i'm not buying anything.

Edited March 4 by Funky

[techyiam]

27 minutes ago, bpong said:

im abit excited about the next euc im getting, it will be suspended....the only thing that makes me abit weary is dealing with the xtra weight...my old ride is only 45lbs... on average, these 'new' eucs from the past few years start around 77+lbs... i hope that i can adapt to the new xtra weight of these suspended wheels..

I can't be certain, but you have been riding on euc's for 5+ years. Based on my own experience of being able to acclimate to the T3, then V12, Abrams and S22, my guess is that the probability of you being able to adapt to a 16" or 20" is very high, and the adjustment period may not be that long. Looking back, it is hard for me to believe that I was able to adapt to each new wheel, especially with the Abrams, to a point where at a stop or walking speed, I am able to handle it like a smaller wheel. Somehow my body is able to adapt.

I am pretty sure this what everyone experiences.

I think the biggest conundrum is finding the best wheel for oneself, given the myriad of factors, no opportunity to sufficiently test ride the candidates, and so many newly released wheels have issues.

[xiiijojjo]

1 minute ago, techyiam said:

I can't be certain, but you have been riding on euc's for 5+ years. Based on my own experience of being able to acclimate to the T3, then V12, Abrams and S22, my guess is that the probability of you being able to adapt to a 16" or 20" is very high, and the adjustment period may not be that long. Looking back, it is hard for me to believe that I was able to adapt to each new wheel, especially with the Abrams, to a point where at a stop or walking speed, I am able to handle it like a smaller wheel. Somehow my body is able to adapt.

I am pretty sure this what everyone experiences.

I think the biggest conundrum is finding the best wheel for oneself, given the myriad of factors, no opportunity to sufficiently test ride the candidates, and so many newly released wheels have issues.

Considering that he's posting his EUC preferences in most threads on this forum, I've been able to gather that his concern about weight is not so much because of handling but rather ease of carrying, however I may be putting words in his mouth. 

If ease of carrying really IS one of the reasons he wants non-suspension that makes sense as suspension does add a lot of weight. If he could have suspension without adding any weight, I think he'd want it, considering his riding style. 

 

When a speed demon like me say they dislike suspension, weight is not even an issue, I'll ride a 75kg EUC, I don't care about weight.

The reason I dislike suspension is because of the "delay" it adds to your EUC reacting to your actions.

On a suspension wheel whenever you lean forward or back, there's a noticeable delay (to a non-suspension rider) and it makes me REALLY uneasy, and makes me feel like I'm losing a degree of control, just like if I had to ride without pads on a heavy wheel.

On a non-s wheel when I lean forward, the input directly translates to the EUC moving without delay.
However with a suspension wheel when I lean forward, the suspension will immediately be pushed down ever so slightly, slowly retracting back as I continue accelerating, until the wheel reaches balance (stabile speed) at which point the suspension will be back in the original neutral position again, but to me this is experienced as.... Delay for a lack of a better term. 

I guess with stiff enough suspension settings this can be mitigated, or removed all together, but stiff suspension kinda defeats the point, no? 

Does anyone agree with my description of "delay" ? Or am I just describing an EUC suspension that was not optimized for my weight, riding style? 
Only suspension wheel I ever tried was the V11, and maybe it turned me off to suspension? I certainly dislike Inmotion firmware/behavior from my experience with the V12.

[techyiam]

1 hour ago, xiiijojjo said:

Considering that he's posting his EUC preferences in most threads on this forum, I've been able to gather that his concern about weight is not so much because of handling but rather ease of carrying, however I may be putting words in his mouth. 

If ease of carrying really IS one of the reasons he wants non-suspension that makes sense as suspension does add a lot of weight. If he could have suspension without adding any weight, I think he'd want it, considering his riding style. 

I was replying to @bpong.

I think you got mixed up with someone else.

1 hour ago, xiiijojjo said:

The reason I dislike suspension is because of the "delay" it adds to your EUC reacting to your actions.

You may be riding at another level than me.

The suspension on my S22 doesn't detract my acceleration, braking, or handling of the wheel in any way that I noticed. 

[Mono]

1 hour ago, xiiijojjo said:

Does anyone agree with my description of "delay" ? Or am I just describing an EUC suspension that was not optimized for my weight, riding style? 
Only suspension wheel I ever tried was the V11, and maybe it turned me off to suspension?

It's probably impossible to say with so little suspension experience. I also rode only once an S22, it felt very cushy, but I have no idea how this would translate into response times for me after getting used to it. I seem to remember to have seen some complaints but not many, given the number of suspended wheels around.

[Mono]

7 hours ago, bpong said:

as part of the 'grey' group of riders,  you should refrain from making blanket statements that older riders care less about anything.

oh, thanks, never mind, I can't remember what "'grey' group" means but I also don't believe that any group affiliation disqualifies someone from expressing their opinions.

When I write "older riders want this or that" I OBVIOUSLY mean on average and not you or any other specific person and it was also meant in comparison to all riders on average. I also wasn't starting this question, I was just trying to give a different point of view in response to another post. ...damn, so many justifications even when there is nothing that would needed to be justified.

7 hours ago, bpong said:

if you are my age already (67) or older, then i would think you may appreciate...

Why not speak for yourself and let me speak for myself and then we may both speculate about averages or expected values 

7 hours ago, bpong said:

and i DONT CARE ABOUT HOW WIDE the tire is.

Ignoring tire width may be a mistake, in particular given you "do look forward to a suspended wheel" coming from the Glide 3 and Tesla, AFAICS, but that's a different story 

Edited March 5 by Mono

[xiiijojjo]

2 hours ago, techyiam said:

I was replying to @bpong.

I think you got mixed up with someone else.

yeah sorry that was a mistake on my part.

 

I am very interested in hearing from older non-suspension riders who have transitioned to suspension, do you understand what I mean by this delay?and do you agree it's a thing?

4 hours ago, xiiijojjo said:

The reason I dislike suspension is because of the "delay" it adds to your EUC reacting to your actions.

On a suspension wheel whenever you lean forward or back, there's a noticeable delay (to a non-suspension rider) and it makes me REALLY uneasy, and makes me feel like I'm losing a degree of control, just like if I had to ride without pads on a heavy wheel.

On a non-s wheel when I lean forward, the input directly translates to the EUC moving without delay.
However with a suspension wheel when I lean forward, the suspension will immediately be pushed down ever so slightly, slowly retracting back as I continue accelerating, until the wheel reaches balance (stabile speed) at which point the suspension will be back in the original neutral position again, but to me this is experienced as.... Delay for a lack of a better term. 

I guess with stiff enough suspension settings this can be mitigated, or removed all together, but stiff suspension kinda defeats the point, no? 

Does anyone agree with my description of "delay" ? Or am I just describing an EUC suspension that was not optimized for my weight, riding style? 
Only suspension wheel I ever tried was the V11, and maybe it turned me off to suspension? I certainly dislike Inmotion firmware/behavior from my experience with the V12.

 

Edited March 5 by xiiijojjo

[Planemo]

9 hours ago, xiiijojjo said:

Does anyone agree with my description of "delay" ?

I can't agree with this at all, going straight from my Sherman OG to the EX30. As far as I can feel, theres zero suspension compression on acceleration/deceleration despite physics saying that there should be an increase in pedal weight. It's probably mitigated a lot due to the suspension travel being perpendicular to the angle of velocity. I most certainly don't notice a delay though. I did notice the EX needs more effort (lean) though, very likely down to the difference in geometry (higher pedals).

[Mono]

From a principled perspective, acceleration is entirely determined by the rider position in relation to the wheel axle. The more forward, the more acceleration. If the suspended wheel would accelerate less in the same rider position, the rider would just fall off in front. When the pedals are compressed downwards and the rider follows accordingly, this actually boosts the acceleration just as leaning downward does.

[techyiam]

1 hour ago, Mono said:

From a principled perspective, acceleration is entirely determined by the rider position in relation to the wheel axle. ... When the pedals are compressed downwards and the rider follows accordingly, this actually boosts the acceleration just as leaning downward does.

For the case of no acceleration pads, acceleration is determine by the amount of horizontal distance the COG of the rider is in front of the axle axis (the direction of gravity is down). With pads, the torque input generated by the rider on the pads adds to this.

In reality while riding, it would be hard press if I could tell there is a discernible difference in acceleration due to the suspension moving up an down.

1 hour ago, Mono said:

The more forward, the more acceleration. If the suspended wheel would accelerate less in the same rider position, the rider would just fall off in front.

This is where it gets murky.

Think acceleration and braking assist.

For the same amount of rider input (leaning), acceleration (or braking) can increase, if "acceleration assist" is dialled up more.

It is very noticeable with the V12 using pedal sensitivity, and split mode adjustments.

[Mono]

4 hours ago, techyiam said:

With pads, the torque input generated by the rider on the pads adds to this.

I don't think so. Where the force is transmitted from the rider to the shell is not relevant. It's always the gravity acting on the rider that produces a torque on the shell, be it via the pads or via the pedals, and the lever of this gravitational force determines how large this torque is, that is, the forward displacement at axle height. The force vector (and hence the lever) is however modified by the acceleration and the counter inertia of the rider.

4 hours ago, techyiam said:

Think acceleration and braking assist.

For the same amount of rider input (leaning), acceleration (or braking) can increase, if "acceleration assist" is dialled up more.

I don't see that this is physically possible. If the wheel acceleration is greater than the rider's lean, the wheel zips in front of the rider, this is just inevitable. Pedal tilt however does make a geometric different and what the rider perceives as assisting is another question too.

[xiiijojjo]

5 hours ago, techyiam said:

Think acceleration and braking assist.

For the same amount of rider input (leaning), acceleration (or braking) can increase, if "acceleration assist" is dialled up more.

As @Monopointed out, gravity is the only real way to affect acceleration/momentum, and the only two conceivable ways to make an "acceleration/braking assist" is either

1. Soft-medium Gotway riding mode

2. Having the pedals connect to a set of rails, on which they can travel forward and backward in the horizontal axis.
Where the pedals swift to(forward or backward) would operate much the same way that soft and medium mode does currently, where when the wheel detects aggressive forward lean the pedals would swift to the most forward position on the horizontal rails, and the opposite for braking. This would significantly help with powerful acceleration and braking, and probably more so than soft-medium mode, but paired with it, acceleration would become absolutely nuts.
 

pads only help magnify the effect of option 1. but has multiple other benefits when it comes to handling, and safety in the sense that pads shorten the response time from rider input to wheel output/reaction for accelerating/braking, in turn helping acceleration/deceleration to accumulate faster, especially going from 0 mph or low speed.

Edited March 6 by xiiijojjo

[techyiam]

4 hours ago, xiiijojjo said:

the only two conceivable ways to make an "acceleration/braking assist" is either

1. Soft-medium Gotway riding mode

2. Having the pedals connect to a set of rails, on which they can travel forward and backward in the horizontal axis.

Also, with power pads, once locked in, a rider can lean more, so that his COG can go pass the front and rear edges of the pedals and not fall off.

Edited March 6 by techyiam

[Mono]

8 hours ago, xiiijojjo said:

Having the pedals connect to a set of rails, on which they can travel forward and backward in the horizontal axis.

Nice one. In effect, that is what power pads have been invented for.

8 hours ago, xiiijojjo said:

pads only help magnify the effect of option 1. [...and...] pads shorten the response time from rider input to wheel output/reaction for accelerating/braking

Not quite. Pads "just" allow/help to connect the legs with the shell and hence to extend the lever beyond the width of the pedals (basically to any width). If legs and shell are glued to each other, the lever of the input weight force that "creates" the wheel torque is not anymore limited by pedal size and only limited by the rider weight and positioning. (Of course, pads also help preventing to accidentally slip off the pedals).

4 hours ago, techyiam said:

Also, with power pads, once locked in, a rider can lean more, so that his COG can go pass the front and rear edges of the pedals and not fall off.

+1, that's exactly my understanding of it too

Edited March 6 by Mono

[atdlzpae]

On 3/3/2024 at 12:42 PM, xiiijojjo said:

I just want something like the wheels of yesteryear that could go for 10k+ kilometers with just a couple of tube changes, because dealing with suspension issues is one of the things currently holding me back from pulling the trigger and buying a wheel, because last time I bought one, suspension wasn't a thing yet.

I bought a Gotway EX recently.
Since the most important aspect of an EUC for me is reliability, I disabled the shock absorption & locked the wheel in the lowest position using hot glue, silicone and a 3D printed bushing.
I doubt that the procedure is more difficult for other EUC's.

Just buy a suspension EUC. You can always remove the suspension if you don't need it.

Edited March 6 by atdlzpae

[xiiijojjo]

5 hours ago, atdlzpae said:

I bought a Gotway EX recently.
Since the most important aspect of an EUC for me is reliability, I disabled the shock absorption & locked the wheel in the lowest position using hot glue, silicone and a 3D printed bushing.
I doubt that the procedure is more difficult for other EUC's.

Just buy a suspension EUC. You can always remove the suspension if you don't need it.

Very interesting, and certainly the first wheel I've seen with "disable suspension", but no matter how smart and easy that is to do, (in your case) I would have rather gotten an EXN, or gotten a wheel there the suspension can be removed, lowering total weight, rather than having to keep the dead weight, but if you're already stuck with an EX I understand the mod.

Maybe it's time someone makes their own custom wheel like the Raciowheel from years ago. We have 168V control boards, powerful motors and high capacity premade 50S batteries that could be used as the base for creating a custom 168V non-suspended wheel. I may wanna look into this, as the current 168V wheels are a disappointment, but I already know new wheels are right around the corner, so I guess I'd rather just wait around for now... It would really suck putting the planning, investment and effort into a custom 168V wheel and then a few months later a 200V 24inch non-suspension wheel comes out. 

Edited March 6 by xiiijojjo

[Funky]

35 minutes ago, xiiijojjo said:

Very interesting, and certainly the first wheel I've seen with "disable suspension", but no matter how smart and easy that is to do, (in your case) I would have rather gotten an EXN, or gotten a wheel there the suspension can be removed, lowering total weight, rather than having to keep the dead weight, but if you're already stuck with an EX I understand the mod.

Maybe it's time someone makes their own custom wheel like the Raciowheel from years ago. We have 168V control boards, powerful motors and high capacity premade 50S batteries that could be used as the base for creating a custom 168V non-suspended wheel. I may wanna look into this, as the current 168V wheels are a disappointment, but I already know new wheels are right around the corner, so I guess I'd rather just wait around for now... It would really suck putting the planning, investment and effort into a custom 168V wheel and then a few months later a 200V 24inch non-suspension wheel comes out. 

Who care's about the Voltage.. Be 84V or 168V it still rides and goes forwards. People seeing bigger Voltage thinks it's something that much better. In real life it's pointless. 

If you where going demons speed where you need the power, then sure.. But most normal people could care less about how big Voltage is the wheel.

100V on small compact wheel is plenty. If older 18" wheels had 84V and they rode pretty well. Now we are getting bigger Voltage in smaller wheels - it's already an upgrade, but pointless one. The speeds i wanna ride and the power i need from the wheel anything around 100V is plenty. And anything more are useless in my eyes.

Now if we are talking about the "Monster" euc's that can got 60mph, etc.. The 4000W+++ motors, sure. But do we really need more Voltage? 168V vs 200V no big difference. 

Edited March 6 by Funky