An advocacy for non-suspension EUCs

[Funky]

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

Don't get me wrong. If I don't experience leg joint pain, I would be quite content with either with my V12 or my Abrams.

I wouldn't need a suspension wheel for under 50 km/h riding, which is what I do mostly.

Same here.  Even when i go 45km/h on my 18xl sometimes at fun rides. Daily commuted i keep it under 30km/h doh.

[Mono]

4 hours ago, techyiam said:

A well tuned and dialled S22 suspension is many, many folds better for going over bumpy roads

Sure, my point however was this: the older we get, the less we are inclined to go over bumpy roads anyways, or at speeds where suspension actually smoothens them notably, so it just doesn't matter how much, much, much better the S22 is on bumpy roads then...

And also, the older we get, the less excited we become to have to control and push around a 40kg device with our dwindling strength and hurting joints.

Edited March 3 by Mono

[Rider1]

Question to those of you who have a suspension wheel: what's the minimum speed needed in order for the suspension to have a noticeable effect (maybe splitting it up into three categories: flat road with minor imperfections, bad road/bumpy dirt road, heavy offroad)?

[Funky]

6 minutes ago, Rider1 said:

Question to those of you who have a suspension wheel: what's the minimum speed needed in order for the suspension to have a noticeable effect (maybe splitting it up into three categories: flat road with minor imperfections, bad road/bumpy dirt road, heavy offroad)?

Anywhere you have felt that "dunk" while riding, that goes up by your legs and spine - suspension wheel would have mitigated it somewhat.

Example going over small pothole or broken asphalt. You normally feel that "dunk". Like someone hit a hammer onto your pedals. Suspension wheel would absorb that impact.

At least i like to imagine it doing that... @techyiam am i right to think like that?

Edited March 3 by Funky

[techyiam]

20 minutes ago, Mono said:

Sure, my point however was this: the older we get, the less we are inclined to go over bumpy roads anyways, or at speeds where suspension actually smoothens them notably, so it just doesn't matter how much, much, much better the S22 is on bumpy roads then...

And also, the older we get, the less excited we become to have to control and push around a 40kg device with dwindling strength and hurting joints.

I can only speak for myself.

I need to get around town. The roads I am using aren't going to changed significantly anytime soon. So that is a fixed known.

In addition, in order for me to ride car replacement miles, the speed got to be reasonable.

For me, riding on the routes that I usually take, I get pain even going at 20 km/h to 30 km/h due to the jolts. On the Abrams, if I crouch down to almost a sitting position, I have no pain. But that is quite tiring.

On the other hand, I just get on my S22, and all of this goes away.

Also, I noticing my speed is increasing with time, especially with a suspension wheel.

The Abrams weighs 44+ kg. And I can ride it almost like my other wheels. I don't find it difficult to ride. And it's great on windy days.

I am not a large person, nor heavy. Also, I am not young.

 

[Mono]

4 minutes ago, techyiam said:

I get pain even going at 20 km/h to 30 km/h due to the jolts.

Pain means what exactly?

[Funky]

1 minute ago, Mono said:

Pain means what exactly?

Pain There ya go pall. 

[techyiam]

29 minutes ago, Rider1 said:

Question to those of you who have a suspension wheel: what's the minimum speed needed in order for the suspension to have a noticeable effect (maybe splitting it up into three categories: flat road with minor imperfections, bad road/bumpy dirt road, heavy offroad)?

First of all, if a rider doesn't feel pain, then I would say it is really up to the rider's preference. It is very subjective.

In terms of noticeable suspension effect, with a S22 that is well tuned, or one of the Veteran suspension wheels, it would be noticeable on any real roads in the city.

However, for big road imperfections, it will be night and day difference. It can save you butt.

 

16 minutes ago, Mono said:

Pain means what exactly?

Sharp pain.

I ride with someone who doesn't feel pain riding the same wheels over the same roads at the same speeds.

This person has no idea what I am talking about.

Until you get pain, you would not understand.

Edited March 3 by techyiam

[techyiam]

1 hour ago, Funky said:

Anywhere you have felt that "dunk" while riding, that goes up by your legs and spine - suspension wheel would have mitigated it somewhat.

Example going over small pothole or broken asphalt. You normally feel that "dunk". Like someone hit a hammer onto your pedals. Suspension wheel would absorb that impact.

At least i like to imagine it doing that... @techyiam am i right to think like that?

If you don't get pain, then you may not notice it.

It's a jolt. An impact force with a larger amplitude over a short duration. The wheel may not even have to move vertically.

So, I feel it often even without the "dunk". With the "dunk", then it would be even worse. But I bend my knees and put my weight on the ball of my feet to mitigate.

Interestingly enough, I notice if I squat down low enough on my Abrams, I get no pain. But my legs get tire quickly.

Edited March 3 by techyiam

[Mono]

25 minutes ago, techyiam said:

Sharp pain.

To my understanding this refers to leg joint pain, but which joints? Both legs?

25 minutes ago, techyiam said:

Until you get pain, you would not understand.

I understand what pain means and how widely it can vary in location, character, and intensity. That's why I am asking. Probably all of us know the common foot pain when riding EUCs. Apart from foot pain, I sometimes get moderate lower back pain when I ride for longer from A to B (but not when I play ride).

[Funky]

43 minutes ago, techyiam said:

If you don't get pain, then you may not notice it.

It's a jolt. An impact force with a larger amplitude over a short duration. The wheel may not even have to move vertically.

So, I feel it often even without the "dunk". With the "dunk", then it would be even worse. But I bend my knees and put my weight on the ball of my feet to migrate.

Interestingly enough, I notice if I squat down low enough on my Abrams, I get no pain. But my legs get tire quickly.

I see. Today i changed my winter tire to summer one and went for 1 hr ride. Over winter my travel normally was 7 minutes or so.

After ride my legs only felt like lil bit numb, but no pain. 1 min walking it was gone. So no i don't feel any pain while riding. So i don't know how it is. (And i'm 280lbs - more weight on joints, etc..)

Also i bend my knees very little. Enough if i hit something they would bend. Compared to straight legs, that i ride on my commutes most of times. When i see a pothole, small curb, or something that i will hit i bend them to intake the "bump". (My eyes are glued to ground, when i ride straight legged.) At fun rides like this 1 hr - roads that i don't ride daily i bend them all the time, but that's mostly because i ride faster also then.

At start i felt pain in my legs.. The par under the knee back of leg. Or when i at start where placing my toes right at the edge of pedal - all front of my foot hurt like crazy.. But nowadays - nothing. I place 1/3 foot over the front of pedal, so i don't need to lean that much = less tress on feet = pain gone. 

Have you tried playing with foot placement? 1 cm back or forwards can be world changing in ride quality. Have you tried riding like skateboard? 1 feet more front other back of pedal. Also try placing your feet way over the pedal. (At start it felt like you gonna slip/fall, but that feeling went away over time.)

Also i don't use pads.. I can move my feet around while riding. Change the style how i ride.

I figure my commutes are so short, i don't really need the suspension then..

Edited March 3 by Funky

[techyiam]

1 hour ago, Funky said:

Have you tried playing with foot placement? 1 cm back or forwards can be world changing in ride quality. Have you tried riding like skateboard? 1 feet more front other back of pedal. Also try placing  your feet way over the pedal. (At start it felt like you gonna slip/fall, but that feeling went away over time.)

I have over 30 000 kilometres on my wheels. It has nothing to do with foot placement, or that kind of thing. Stagger positioning of feet don't change a thing.

The things that improve things are low tire pressure, the tire itself, soft pedal mode, large bend in knees, standing on toes, and etc.

My legs are toned. 

1 hour ago, Funky said:

I figure my commutes are so short, i don't really need the suspension then..

After owning an S22, I come to realize suspension wheels are not a necessity for everyone, at least pertaining to city commuters.

For those who ride main roads at the speed of car traffic, then a suspension wheel would be a real asset, especially after dark.

For riders who have healthy leg joints and who don't get pain due to jolts, a wheel like the V12 (in soft pedal mode setting, and the right tire and pressure) or 22" wheels can suffice for city commutes on bike paths and bike routes riding on side streets at e-bike speeds. Well, at least for the types of road that I ride.

But this can be very subjective.

 

Edited March 3 by techyiam

[Funky]

4 minutes ago, techyiam said:

I have over 30 000 kilometres on my wheels.

And i have done only 1/10 of that over 3 years. 

And i have came to realize i need smaller wheel.. Compared to what i have now.  Only pro - i have to charge my wheel only 2 times a month.

[techyiam]

39 minutes ago, Funky said:

And i have done only 1/10 of that over 3 years. 

And i have came to realize i need smaller wheel.. Compared to what i have now.  Only pro - i have to charge my wheel only 2 times a month.

Yup, you are a true last-mile-device rider.

Just curious, assuming your dad's use-case is same as yours, is your dad looking to upgrade?

[Funky]

5 hours ago, techyiam said:

Yup, you are a true last-mile-device rider.

Just curious, assuming your dad's use-case is same as yours, is your dad looking to upgrade?

We have "laughing" said we want to upgrade, but market doesn't make our "type" of EUC anymore. We are getting only 30kg++ wheels.. But we want something in/under 20kg. (He has even said sometimes the 18kg wheel it to heavy. We both have completely the same use case.) And he also doesn't want the wheels that we have from 2018.. We both want something NEW.

And he doesn't want suspension also.. Because of the problems of lining, work needed to be done, etc. And he's 2 times the age of me..

More or less same mindset, because of same use case. If nothing i bet he would buy the same wheel again. Because of the trolley/carry handle combo that KS have.

Edited March 4 by Funky

[Planemo]

10 hours ago, Mono said:

Sure, my point however was this: the older we get, the less we are inclined to go over bumpy roads anyways, or at speeds where suspension actually smoothens them notably, so it just doesn't matter how much, much, much better the S22 is on bumpy roads then...

You do have a point there. I rarely go off-road and if I do it's gravel trails, grass, nothing even approaching knarly. Partly cos I'm one of those that would be on my knees blubbing like a baby if I dumped and scratched my wheel but I digress. The smoother the surface the better for me, but I still went suspension, simply because it's a 'nicer' ride and I am less stressed about watching out for every surface imperfection like a hawk. Another big benefit for me is that I can now spend much of my ride with slightly bent knees (should never, ever lock knees) instead of riding with say a 45 degree bend like I used to on my OG Sherman. And the rides I do (usually 100 milers) meant that sustaining a 45 degree bend for that amount of time/distance is a big ask. I'm 51 but even someone young and fit would have tired quads/glutes after that! Of course, I could have ridden the Sherman with less bent legs (say 15~30degress) but I was simply too scared to risk it - to avoid crashing. I really dont want to crash.

But getting back to your point, you're absolutely right - just how good does a suspension need to be? Obviously this will be different for everyone. Someone into hardcore stuff will of course need the best linkages/shock/slider design available. For me, a stock EX with a just a coil shock swop is perfect.

10 hours ago, Mono said:

And also, the older we get, the less excited we become to have to control and push around a 40kg device

No kidding. I weighed my EX30 for the first time last night with the full Grizzla kit, LED conversion and some carbon wrap - 51.3Kg. But as above I wouldn't go back to non-suspension and the Grizzla kit will provide some good, easily replaced protection if the wheel does go down (heaven forbid!).

10 hours ago, Rider1 said:

Question to those of you who have a suspension wheel: what's the minimum speed needed in order for the suspension to have a noticeable effect (maybe splitting it up into three categories: flat road with minor imperfections, bad road/bumpy dirt road, heavy offroad)?

I notice the suspension at all speeds tbh. You get numbed to the effects after riding for a while with it, thinking 'is it really doing much for me'. But a quick go on a non-sus wheel quickly reminds you just how much it's doing, even at low speed, on slight bumps/cracks/going down a small kerb without the jolt etc. It's endless.

To sum up, for me suspension is just nicer to ride with in all areas, even for my largely asphalt rides and I don't have a single downside for it. I can maintain my own wheel though and tbh I quite enjoy working on/servicing it, just like my MTB. But, 51.3Kg is a lot of mass. Theres no denying that the wheel is a big, heavy lump and as a result certainly not for everyone. But I don't ever lift it anywhere (except in/out of my car which I can still manage no problem), hardly ever trolley it except into pubs/cafes and the weight actually works for my riding because it's just such a smooth, planted wheel and an absolute joy to ride. I would compare it to a quick saloon car Vs a souped up Civic with rock hard aftermarket suspension (Sherman). And for me it's still manoeuvrable enough with the 18" wheel, as opposed to say a Monster/Master Pro with 22/24" and as a result can still be thrown around enough for me to be able to call it 'playful' - theres plenty of good riders on YT hustling the EX around like it's a much smaller wheel.

After all that, I would still like to see some more, smaller non-sus wheels being released. I am quite confident I would never have bought the EX as my 1st wheel and so the smaller stuff will always have a place in my heart for getting me into this great hobby

 

[Mono]

7 hours ago, Funky said:

If nothing i bet he would buy the same wheel again.

I bought the V8/V8F already three times again since my first in 2016.

The wheel improved notably over time and it works pretty well for me, so I don't know why I would want something NEW. There are still improvements I would quite like to have, most notably a wider tire and lights that meet reasonable standards (and a little more pedal clearance and a little less flimsy trolley) and then I dream of a 4 kg weight reduction which will remain a dream.

[Funky]

1 hour ago, Mono said:

I bought the V8/V8F already three times again since my first in 2016.

The wheel improved notably over time and it works pretty well for me, so I don't know why I would want something NEW. There are still improvements I would quite like to have, most notably a wider tire and lights that meet reasonable standards (and a little more pedal clearance and a little less flimsy trolley) and then I dream of a 4 kg weight reduction which will remain a dream.

We started 2021. I don't really see point of buying the same wheel - if old one is working just fine. But something "NEW" aka like you said with wider tire. Waterproof. Display maybe? 100V+ wheel would be welcome buy.

Your V8 will never get a wider tire - they would need to redesign whole shell. It would be easier to build completely new wheel. Also new wheel would make more profits vs something that old.. So again NEW wheel would be welcomed here. My wheel is 26.5kg heavy(Aftermarket pedals + M/C tire). I would love to get something in 20kg weight. 6kg less would be dream come true for me.  

Aka Falcom without metal build and suspension. Easy 20kg wheel. More or less A2 with 100V. (I hate that A2 doesn't have trolley handle. And it's carry handle is bad design.)

Maybe some day we will see something in 20kg again.. Knowing how rarely lightweight wheel are being released, i figure next release will be in about 3 years? That's from Begode. Rest of manufacturers have forgotten about that market completely. They think that everyone wanna ride on streets going 55mph.. 

 

To be honest - if my wheel would die right now. Aka both batteries dead or something like that. Repair would cost 1000$. I would stop riding for time being.... As at that moment i would wanna buy something new. Not spending 1000$ to repair old wheel. Why would i stop riding? Because i see no wheel in market which i would wanna buy right now.

Falcon was closest wheel i would wanna buy. But it doesn't have any carry handle.. And still is 5kg to heavy from my dream wheel. Will go back to riding bicycle - till they release something actually good in 20kg weight. Otherwise i'm not buying another EUC ever. Manufacturers can keep making their monster EUC's and lose sidewalk riders at same time.

They can easily sell small form factor EUC's at premium...... Who cares that you can get something bigger/faster for same amount of money. People who want small wheel will pay the amount to get it. Versus having market without any options at all. I'm ready to spend 2500$ for V8 performance wheel. But please have newest and latest specs/design.

Edited March 4 by Funky

[Mono]

2 hours ago, Funky said:

100V+ wheel

The voltage race is an unfortunate scam. I will never buy a +90V wheel unless I really have no other good options.

2 hours ago, Funky said:

Your V8 will never get a wider tire - they would need to redesign whole shell.

I managed to DIY fit a 2.5" tire on the V8F. They already "redesigned the whole shell" for the V8F to fit a (slightly) wider tire (I guess to get rid of the tire scraping complaints with 2.125" width). The outside is still the same, they just scraped material on the inside. You are right, this incremental approach won't work for tires larger than 2.75".

2 hours ago, Funky said:

To be honest - if my wheel would die right now. Aka both batteries dead or something like that. Repair would cost 1000$. I would stop riding for time being...

In this aspect we are very different. No way I would stop riding when my wheel breaks (again) just because there is no NEW wheel to buy. I also have a backup wheel in case this happens, just so I don't need to wait empty handed before the new wheel arrives or I manage the repair.

Edited March 4 by Mono

[Funky]

24 minutes ago, Mono said:

In this aspect we are very different. No way I would stop riding when my wheel breaks (again) just because there is no NEW wheel to buy. I also have a backup wheel in case this happens, just so I don't need to wait empty handed before the new wheel arrives.

Yup - To me EUC isn't a hobby. It's means getting from A to B. And if i don't see a device that i like - i will not buy it.

Like i said. I don't like any EUC's that are in the market right now. And buying same wheel again - no thanks. What i'm trying to say is, i will go back using my bike till i see something that i like. 

And i'm one wheel user - i have no problem going back using my bike for week or two. I don't need more than one wheel.

Edited March 4 by Funky

[Mono]

8 minutes ago, Funky said:

Yup - To me EUC isn't a hobby.

Though posting at this EUC forum clearly is, isn't it?

[Funky]

26 minutes ago, Mono said:

Though posting at this EUC forum clearly is, isn't it?

Yup.  Gotta talk to someone.. Otherwise why i even exist in this forsaken world.

If i own a bike and ride on it - does it make me a hobbyist automatically?  I think not? People who own more than 3 wheels are hobbyist and ride them daily.. First thought every morning - where i could ride today, etc..

I'm also not outdoorsy guy. Example: outside beautiful sunny day - i choose to stay home, if i have a choice. Aka introvert by nature..

Edited March 4 by Funky

[bpong]

On 3/3/2024 at 8:30 AM, Mono said:

Older riders, on average, care less and less going fast and crazy, and hence they are less in need of suspension. At lower speeds, a wide tire is as effective, or more so, to make the ride comfortable and smooth.

Mono,

as part of the 'grey' group of riders,  you should refrain from making blanket statements that older riders care less about anything.  i for one look forward to a suspended euc, once they make one that meets my standards.  and i DO LOOK FORWARD to a suspended wheel.  and i DONT CARE ABOUT HOW WIDE the tire is.  how old are you btw Mono ?  if you are my age already (67) or older, then i would think you may appreciate any kind of mechanical suspension that would reduce the stress on ones knees while riding an euc, especially if one rides using bent knees.   thank you none the less for your remarks about older riders,  but i for one want a suspended euc,  and there are times when i do like to ride abit fast,  but if i really wanted to ride fast and comfortably,  i would simply jump into my old 99 5spd man 4runner and go fast and comfortably...albeit less efficiently than my euc of course.  take care and have a great riding season for 2024 !!!!

[Funky]

2 hours ago, bpong said:

Mono,

as part of the 'grey' group of riders,  you should refrain from making blanket statements that older riders care less about anything.  i for one look forward to a suspended euc, once they make one that meets my standards.  and i DO LOOK FORWARD to a suspended wheel.  and i DONT CARE ABOUT HOW WIDE the tire is.  how old are you btw Mono ?  if you are my age already (67) or older, then i would think you may appreciate any kind of mechanical suspension that would reduce the stress on ones knees while riding an euc, especially if one rides using bent knees.   thank you none the less for your remarks about older riders,  but i for one want a suspended euc,  and there are times when i do like to ride abit fast,  but if i really wanted to ride fast and comfortably,  i would simply jump into my old 99 5spd man 4runner and go fast and comfortably...albeit less efficiently than my euc of course.  take care and have a great riding season for 2024 !!!!

My old man is near your age, give or take ~8 years.  And he doesn't want suspension. Again two groups of people.. One likes suspension other doesn't - Simple.

But it's mostly how long distance one is riding also. If i would ride 30km everyday. Even i can say - i would want suspension. But luckily I and my old man doesn't ride anywhere near that distance, closer to 1/10 of that.

 

How smooth or bad roads one have, distance, how bad knees you have - everything plays a role. 

Edited March 4 by Funky

[bpong]

14 minutes ago, Funky said:

My old man is near your age, give or take ~8 years.  And he doesn't want suspension. Again two groups of people.. One likes suspension other doesn't - Simple.

But it's mostly how long distance one is riding also. If i would ride 30km everyday. Even i can say - i would want suspension. But luckily I and my old man doesn't ride anywhere near that distance, closer to 1/10 of that.

 

How smooth or bad roads one have, distance, how bad knees you have - everything plays a role. 

im abit excited about the next euc im getting, it will be suspended....the only thing that makes me abit weary is dealing with the xtra weight...my old ride is only 45lbs... on average, these 'new' eucs from the past few years start around 77+lbs... i hope that i can adapt to the new xtra weight of these suspended wheels...have a great 2024 riding season Funky !!!