Reckless riding is going to get us banned

[Marty Backe]

3 hours ago, archieuc said:

In France this video was enough to change everything for the PEVs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srfiAOxbYHc

It made a lot of noise in the media and drew the attention of the authorities to the PEVs. Later, a fatal accident on the motorway led to the introduction of a new and very strict regulation for electric scooters and EUCs.
- 25km/h max (15mph)
- insurance is mandatory (one for each wheel) but impossible to obtain for all wheels that can exceed this speed. In case of a police check, we risk €1500 and confiscation of the wheel
- out-of-town driving ban
Many neighbouring countries have simply banned PEVs. We've been lucky so far.

Don't risk a ban in the U.S. !

The United States is made of 50 individual states that have their own laws. It's impossible for there to be a nation wide ban on EUC's, even if I think that were desired by some people.

And New York City is such a unique environment that whatever happens there will be shrugged off by the rest of the United States.

I have zero worries about this.

[.....]

1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

The United States is made of 50 individual states that have their own laws. It's impossible for there to be a nation wide ban on EUC's, even if I think that were desired by some people.

And New York City is such a unique environment that whatever happens there will be shrugged off by the rest of the United States.

I have zero worries about this.

Not exactly accurate. We are a nation of multiple states, but we are under the nationwide umbrella of the federal government. This is the same government that is able to determine if a vehicle is even allowed to be sold for highway or private use. There are MANY laws about many things, and some are nationwide as the Feds determine it to be. A state can TRY to ignore these laws, but they face the wrath and lack of funding of the feds when they do so. Ever since the civil war, the states EXPRESS rights to make their own laws, can be undermined by the federal government at any time. I'm not trying to start and lose a political debate, I'm just pointing out the obvious. It has become a source of friction in some of these larger heavily populated areas. Ironic that it was these same areas that fought for the federal government idea, but are now undermining it and saying how they are allowed to ignore federal law. Moot point, as even the New Yorkers will boldly claim that they choose to ignore city law anyhow. New York City and Some of the greater California cities are the same in my book.

Edited June 26, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[Michael D]

1 hour ago, Hsiang said:

But I get that NYC is different, I can always spot the new tourist as they look completely freaked out walking down the street.

That's about what you said before, but what does it mean? Do you mean that the two examples are not reckless riding because it is in NYC? Is that generally accepted? Should it be?

22 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

I have zero worries about this.

Are you talking about the risk of banning EUC? There are also other impediment as a result of reckless riding.

[Shield]

As these and other electric vehicles become faster and faster don't believe for one second that we are immune to this countries laws and regulations. I have been flying RC Planes, Helicopters and Quadcopters for many years. Everything was lovely until the irresponsible drone owners arrived and look what that got us. Never say never when your putting others at risk. That's my $0.02

[Arbolest]

45 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

The United States is made of 50 individual states that have their own laws. It's impossible for there to be a nation wide ban on EUC's, even if I think that were desired by some people.

And New York City is such a unique environment that whatever happens there will be shrugged off by the rest of the United States.

I have zero worries about this.

 

9 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

Not exactly accurate. We are a nation of multiple states, but we are under the nationwide umbrella of the federal government. This is the same government that is able to determine if a vehicle is even allowed to be sold for highway use. There are MANY laws about many things, and some are nationwide as the Feds determine it to be. A state can TRY to ignore these laws, but they face the wrath and lack of funding of the feds when they do so. Ever since the civil war, the states EXPRESS rights to make their own laws, can be undermined by the federal government at any time. I'm not trying to start and lose a political debate, I'm just pointing out the obvious. It has become a source of friction in some of these larger heavily populated areas. Ironic that it was these same areas that fought for the federal government idea, but are now undermining it and saying how they are allowed to ignore federal law. Moot point, as even the New Yorkers will boldly claim that they choose to ignore city law anyhow. New York City and Some of the greater California cities are the same in my book.

 

I actually find myself agreeing on both sides of this...

On one hand the federal government absolutely CAN dictate what is legal to operate on the INTERSTATE highways and can ban whatever type of vehicle they want for whatever reasons they fancy. On the other hand, I don't think they can override local state laws concerning vehicle eligibility on state highways or lesser roads. I'm pretty sure it's just that in general the individual States kind of copy/paste the interstate limitations unless there is a specific reason to make a change or amendment on a specific stretch of asphalt.

Now, all that said, that's just talking about highway use. Road/bike lane/bike path/sidewalk/offroad use is a completely different animal! That's a lot more "personal" and invasive for any given state or jurisdiction. I find it incredibly unlikely that any kind of wide-reaching, full coverage ban on any type of PEV will ever become a reality in the US. At least not on a national level. You might see a city or two that have a particular beef against electric scooters, or a county that really hates electric skateboards on their bike paths, but even just on an individual state level a full-on ban (as opposed to some trivial limitation) on any PEV seems like it would take more attention and "effort" on the politicians' part than they are likely to put forward for that cause. They have bigger fish to fry.

[.....]

The feds long arm does not stop on ONLY federal highways. The federal governments reach extends into private properties and even work rights. Hell, they could outright BAN euc's from being imported altogether and THEN create impossible requirements for anyone to locally build them. Typically the feds enact a lesser stance and ALLOW the local governments to enforce above and beyond.  It MAY be possible for a local government to ignore federal law, but then they also lose monies granted within. Just as Louisiana tried to fight the federal drinking age, only to watch the state lose so much money that they eventually complied, long after their citizens suffered from poor schools and roads and bridges. Federal law is king and local law is the second in command. I too doubt the feds will impose a countrywide ban, but I believe it is totally in their power. The feds like to pick their battles. I am not siding with any govt, federal or local, I just realize that when push comes to shove, the states will lose and the feds will win... period.

Edited June 26, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[AtlasP]

Irrelevant of whether the federal government makes a law or not, the widely known fact is that many state and city governments just look to a few high-profile states/cities (like NYC and SF) and follow their example, particularly when it involves technology trends perceived as disruptive. We saw this exact thing with Uber/Lyft and then again with the rideshare scooters; a few high-profile states/cities passed laws and then many others followed suit, often copying the legislation pretty much verbatim. (So getting something banned or heavily regulated in NYC is a good way to see this happen at cities across the country within a year, and not just as a coincidence/happenstance, but as a matter of standard operating procedure.) It's basically de facto federalization without the need for the actual federal government to do anything.

And people are delusional if they think "oh we're too small for government to notice". In today's political climate, everyone knows all it takes is just one of these kinds of videos to go viral and it can happen almost overnight. (Probably not merely specific to EUCs, but rather lumped together with esk8/OneWheel/etc.) Politicians actually love these kinds of niche cases because it lets them look good to the masses ("we're doing something to protect children/old people") while only pissing off a very small and statistically insignificant voter group (the riders of niche devices).

This isn't a random doom-and-gloom prediction, it's pragmatic realism with lots of clear examples in recent years.

Edited June 30, 2020 by AtlasP

[Arbolest]

6 minutes ago, AtlasP said:

Irrelevant of whether the federal government makes a law or not, the fact is that many state and city governments look to a few high-profile states/cities and just follow their example. We saw this with Uber/Lyft and then the rideshare scooters; a few high-profile states/cities passed laws and then many others followed suit, often copying the legislation pretty much verbatim. It's basically de facto federalization without the need for the actual federal government to do anything.

And people are delusional if they think "oh we're too small for government to notice". In today's political climate, just one or two of these kinds of videos go viral and it'll happen, without question. (Probably not merely specific to EUCs, but rather lumping together esk8/OneWheel/EUCs/etc.) Politicians actually love this kind of thing because it makes them look good to the masses (we're looking out for the children/old people) while only pissing off a very small and statistically insignificant voter group (the riders of niche devices).

 

16 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

The feds long arm does not stop on ONLY federal highways. The federal governments reach extends into private properties and even work rights. Hell, they could outright BAN euc's from being imported altogether and THEN create impossible requirements for anyone to locally build them. Typically the feds enact a lesser stance and ALLOW the local governments to enforce above and beyond.  It MAY be possible for a local government to ignore federal law, but then they also lose monies granted within. Just as Louisiana tried to fight the federal drinking age, only to watch the state lose so much money that they eventually complied, long after their citizens suffered from poor schools and roads and bridges. Federal law is king and local law is the second in command. I too doubt the feds will impose a countrywide ban, but I believe it is totally in their power. The feds like to pick their battles. I am not siding with any govt, federal or local, I just realize that when push comes to shove, the states will lose and the feds will win... period.

 

hmmmm   

[LanghamP]

The government most US citizen directly comply with is neither the city nor the Federal government, but rather Homeowners Associations. That is, almost all suburbs are private property with fractional ownership, and most US citizens live in the suburbs. HOA aren't officially part of the government, but with their ability to make and enforce laws, place liens on non-complient owners, their hiring of police forces, their ability to grant building permits, and their ability to levy taxes (called homeowner dues), then HOA are in fact function as the strongest and most direct government level most US citizens interact with.

Except for a few urban pockets, it is the HOA that grants or denies what vehicles can be used on its private roads (again, suburban roads are public roads under, ahem, private control via fractional ownership...).

Curiously, HOA used to explicitly exclude blacks in their constitution, that is, the HOA wouldn't let you live there if you were black. Since being part of a HOA was a requirement to getting a federal housing grant, it follows that HOA members were dirty racist asses even if you genuinely weren't racist.

[.....]

5 minutes ago, LanghamP said:

The government most US citizen directly comply with is neither the city nor the Federal government, but rather Homeowners Associations. That is, almost all suburbs are private property with fractional ownership, and most US citizens live in the suburbs. HOA aren't officially part of the government, but with their ability to make and enforce laws, place liens on non-complient owners, their hiring of police forces, their ability to grant building permits, and their ability to levy taxes (called homeowner dues), then HOA are in fact function as the strongest and most direct government level most US citizens interact with.

Except for a few urban pockets, it is the HOA that grants or denies what vehicles can be used on its private roads (again, suburban roads are public roads under, ahem, private control via fractional ownership...).

Curiously, HOA used to explicitly exclude blacks in their constitution, that is, the HOA wouldn't let you live there if you were black. Since being part of a HOA was a requirement to getting a federal housing grant, it follows that HOA members were dirty racist asses even if you genuinely weren't racist.

I did not know that. I'd like to see some evidence that MOST of us are homeowners association members. I refuse to live in a gated community and I find it repulsive that people move into the country to turn it into another damn suburb of the city. Its becoming increasingly hard to find land to live on, that isnt controlled by another entity.  Off topic for sure, but I'm really hoping you are skewing the stats and MOST of us aren't so stupid as to sign up to belong to yet ANOTHER organization that gets to tell us how to live and what to do. It only took 40 years for me to convince a bank to buy a home for me and charge me mortgage for it. No homeowners association out here, just a few churches and a shit ton of guns... Even so, federal laws still apply.

Edited June 26, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[postbio]

Important topic, thanks for the OP. I'm a new EUC rider in NYC that's building up experience and transitioning off sidewalks/bike lanes and going faster on the street alongside cars.

I'd say that trying to push your limits as a form of personal challenge or self-expression is OK, but only if it does not cause risk or harm to others.

This means if you want to go crazy fast and/or super aggressive, do it in traffic on the street (or on trails), and not on sidewalks, busy bike lanes, or areas reserved for pedestrians.

That way if you screw up, you're most likely the only one to get hurt while the innocent are safely shielded in their multi-ton metal vehicles. 

Even in traffic, try to be respectful, especially in groups. I see the same pack-like behavior with dirtbikes, ATVs, and motorcycles and it's terrible. 

I used to aggressive skate and skateboard as a kid with packs of other kids, so I can understand the camaraderie and disregard for the general public, but with the benefit of age tend to take the public's side, especially with some heavy and high-powered vehicles easily over 50 pounds that can go up to 40 miles per hour. 

Edited June 27, 2020 by postbio

[Marty Backe]

2 hours ago, Michael D said:

That's about what you said before, but what does it mean? Do you mean that the two examples are not reckless riding because it is in NYC? Is that generally accepted? Should it be?

Are you talking about the risk of banning EUC? There are also other impediment as a result of reckless riding.

 

2 hours ago, Shield said:

As these and other electric vehicles become faster and faster don't believe for one second that we are immune to this countries laws and regulations. I have been flying RC Planes, Helicopters and Quadcopters for many years. Everything was lovely until the irresponsible drone owners arrived and look what that got us. Never say never when your putting others at risk. That's my $0.02

 

2 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

The feds long arm does not stop on ONLY federal highways. The federal governments reach extends into private properties and even work rights. Hell, they could outright BAN euc's from being imported altogether and THEN create impossible requirements for anyone to locally build them. Typically the feds enact a lesser stance and ALLOW the local governments to enforce above and beyond.  It MAY be possible for a local government to ignore federal law, but then they also lose monies granted within. Just as Louisiana tried to fight the federal drinking age, only to watch the state lose so much money that they eventually complied, long after their citizens suffered from poor schools and roads and bridges. Federal law is king and local law is the second in command. I too doubt the feds will impose a countrywide ban, but I believe it is totally in their power. The feds like to pick their battles. I am not siding with any govt, federal or local, I just realize that when push comes to shove, the states will lose and the feds will win... period.

A lot of doom and gloom here for sure. I get all the arguments. I'm just not worried on a practical level that any nationwide laws are going to be enacted that materially affect EUC ownership. I stand by my assertion that we are too niche. Maybe I'll have a different stance in 2030 - I'll leave my future options open.

Edited June 27, 2020 by Marty Backe

[.....]

2 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

A lot of doom and gloom here for sure. I get all the arguments. I'm just not worried on a practical level that any nationwide laws are going to be enacted that materially affect EUC ownership. I stand by my assertion that we are too niche. Maybe I'll have a different stance in 2030 - I'll leave my future options open.

I don't think the feds will bother either, but its not 'impossible'. Its such a small market, and making laws doesnt even mean you can afford to enforce them. Federal law sets guidelines for car emissions. Some states don't have and never have had a method to enforce or test compliance. Eucs are much less a worry than cars. I CAN see that local laws will be swiftly made and could go either way for the euc. Local laws about skateboarding in smaller towns, changed rapidly back in the 80's. It took 20 years for the view to at least accept them and build public use areas. I am hoping that the euc will stay under the radar for long enough that I can enjoy the freedom of it. With the way news spreads and media can persuade people, it IS totally possible that a single glorified instance, COULD effect the public view in areas not even similar or on the same side of the country.  I'm not an ambassador for the sport and will quickly delete footage that shows me endangering others. Remember people.. if you are young and foresee needing jobs in the future, your video history may haunt you...long after you could care less about euc's at all.

Edited June 27, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[Shield]

Shocking that no one is talking about this incident. EUC on the FDR is bad for all of us.

[Hsiang]

1 hour ago, Shield said:

Shocking that no one is talking about this incident. EUC on the FDR is bad for all of us.

No one is talking about this because  a week ago and less than 10 blocks away police carS were being over turned and set on fire by protestors in the middle of 5th ave while elsewhere NYPD attempted mass arrest of protestors by blocking and trapping them on the bridges. And before that thousands died daily and they had to bring in a field full of refrigeration trucks just to keep the bodies.

No one noticed and no one cared about this, in the context of the insanity that had happen to this city in the last 10 weeks, NYC really does not care about a single guy whom decide to ride a strange contraption on the FDR for one exit.

Edited June 27, 2020 by Hsiang

[Marty Backe]

1 hour ago, ShanesPlanet said:

I don't think the feds will bother either. Its such a small market, and making laws doesnt even mean you can afford to enforce them. Federal law sets guidelines for car emissions. Some states don't have and never have had a method to enforce or test compliance. Eucs are much less a worry than cars. I CAN see that local laws will be swiftly made and could go either way for the euc. Local laws about skateboarding in smaller towns, changed rapidly back in the 80's. It took 20 years for the view to at least accept them and build public use areas. I am hoping that the euc will stay under the radar for long enough that I can enjoy the freedom of it. With the way news spreads and media can persuade people, it IS totally possible that a single glorified instance, COULD effect the public view in areas not even similar or on the same side of the country.  I'm not an ambassador for the sport and will quickly delete footage that shows me endangering others. Remember people.. if you are young and foresee needing jobs in the future, your video history may haunt you...long after you could care less about euc's at all.

When I do the high speed Veteran tests (not with me in the drivers seat), it's going to be in the bottom of one of the Los Angeles rivers, Terminator style 

No bad press and no possible bystander injuries.

[Bertrand One]

8 minutes ago, Hsiang said:

No one is talking about this because  a week ago and less than 10 blocks away police carS were being over turned and set on fire by protestors in the middle of 5th ave while elsewhere NYPD attempted mass arrest of protestors by blocking and trapping them on the bridges. And before that thousands died daily and they had to bring in a field full of refrigeration trucks just to keep the bodies.

No one noticed and no one cared about this, in the context of the insanity that had happen to this city in the last 10 weeks, NYC really does not care about a single guy whom decide to ride a strange contraption on the FDR for one exit.

Hsiang, I love your content, but the poster you're quoting was obviously referring to the EUC community, not the wider world. They're not saying it should be on the news, especially not with everything else that's going on at the moment, they're saying that the EUC community should be calling out this stuff. They're right, too.

[Shield]

14 minutes ago, Hsiang said:

No one is talking about this because  a week ago and less than 10 blocks away police carS were being over turned and set on fire by protestors in the middle of 5th ave while elsewhere NYPD attempted mass arrest of protestors by blocking and trapping them on the bridges. And before that thousands died and there were fields full of refrigeration trucks just to keep the bodies.

No one noticed and no one cared about this, in the context of the insanity that had happen to this city in the last 10 weeks, NYC really does not care about a single guy whom decide to ride a strange contraption on the FDR for one exit.

At the time no one would have cared if I had been there looting either but that doesn't make it right.

[.....]

14 minutes ago, Hsiang said:

No one is talking about this because  a week ago and less than 10 blocks away police carS were being over turned and set on fire by protestors in the middle of 5th ave while elsewhere NYPD attempted mass arrest of protestors by blocking and trapping them on the bridges. And before that thousands died daily and they had to bring in a field full of refrigeration trucks just to keep the bodies.

No one noticed and no one cared about this, in the context of the insanity that had happen to this city in the last 10 weeks, NYC really does not care about a single guy whom decide to ride a strange contraption on the FDR for one exit.

That surely paints a picture now doesnt it? Its eye opening for me to hear about these things. I really do have it made and should wake up happy every morning.

[Alj]

On 6/25/2020 at 2:20 PM, gr8ps said:

Have you guys ever ridden in NYC? You don't understand. You have to be aggressive,

Aggressive riding around pedestrians? This is wrong on many levels, i'm not even going to start.

[gr8ps]

24 minutes ago, Alj said:

Aggressive riding around pedestrians? This is wrong on many levels, i'm not even going to start.

I'm gonna edit that comment and add the /sarcasm tag. 

 

These are the comments I got when I called out the NYC riders a few years ago. 

On 6/11/2018 at 2:31 PM, dieterGRAMS said:

Ayy this is NYC. This is how you have to move unless you wanna get plowed by a Cab. Unless you want a Roadie or Mess-lifer up your ass. I had a cyclist slam into the back of me going UP the Manhattan bridge because I thought i'd chill and pace with tourists on Citibikes. You should see the Mexican/Chinese delivery E-bikes... 

 

On 6/11/2018 at 6:31 PM, houseofjob said:

I understand where you're coming from (figuratively and literally), but how do you understand US new york riders if you haven't lived a mile in our shoes commuting here in the reality of the NYC traffic jungle?

For example:

Jaywalking laws are obeyed in so many cities across the world. Seems sensible (ok). 

But here in NYC? It's almost like you are a leper if you just wait at a red crosswalk in no traffic, everyone will step, bump, and then flip you off for being in their way in crossing / jaywalking.

Also:

I've seen NYPD in. front. of. their. eyes ignore on the regular:

• ebike delivery going up the wrong way of one way streets,
• cars running red lights,
• cars blocking the path of oncoming traffic after running red lights,
• cabs pummel into bike lanes, almost hitting cyclist to hurry and pick up a fare,
• angry cyclists buzzing pedestrians (actually, everyone, including EUC) who stray aimlessly into bike paths,
• .... and so on, and so forth. 

 

NYC is not you're typically city, and certainly not sunny California / San Diego: you'll be eaten alive playing it just by the rules (not saying this is right, but hey, ... you know, survival). Remember: we don't start by saying "hey let's run this red light", we get there by conditioning from our environment; repeated cyclists and ebikes cutting us off, then looking back and flipping us the bird, all while running a light (human beings are imitators in large part, no?).

Why do you think New Yorkers are always angry, sarcastic, and flipping people off? ?

 

(and FWIW, if we're riding in So Cal, we're definitely not pulling the same ? we're accustomed to doing in NYC). "When in Rome, do as ...... "

 

Now with @Hsiang saying what he is saying, it's pretty clear that this is a common theme. Maybe it is a cultural norm amongst NYC riders, or New Yorkers in general. However, some of the comments I'm reading calling out the behavior is from NYC riders themselves. The thread started in reddit seems to be from a local. In one of the youtube videos in the comments, the uploader David, calls out @Jediah Matthew (the infamous U-stride) for being unsafe, riding close to kids, etc. Even other NYC riders don't like U-stride to ride near them - in one of his videos he states that the e-riders asked him to follow at a distance because he caused a crash(es?) because of following too close. 

Regardless, I don't think these recent events have been a good look for the community. I'm unsubscribing and cutting off my measly Patreon. I don't want these sorts of videos to be the first exposure people get to this hobby. 

Sorry - this event triggered me. Maybe all this COVID stuff has made me irritable. 

Edited June 27, 2020 by gr8ps

[Alj]

13 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

I know for the United States. We'll be legal.

The correct word is "regulated". Look at the "class 3 ebike". It is pretty restricted (banned from bicycle trails in most places) yet it can only go up to 28mph. Above that you probably will be obligated to get a license plate to be on a public road or limit yourself to some isolated specialty parks. At this point EUC is not classified because of small numbers but it is getting popular.

[Alj]

41 minutes ago, gr8ps said:

I'm gonna edit that comment and add the /sarcasm tag. 

Text (without speech and facial emotions) transfers only 30% of information. Need to be more precise lol.

[Rywokast]

legality/local rules, culture and everything else aside... i feel like we as a community should never ever condone this type of activity... what do you think would help eucs and the euc community out more in the long run, being polite and courteous to those around you or driving like a complete jackass around people of all ages including children.. dont give a shit if "thats how you do it in new york" you look like an ass hole and im sure the people that had multiple heart attacks as an adult riding a 70 lb device going past them inches away from their kid at road speeds felt the same.... eucs gaining popularity will make them cheaper and more accessible for all, as well as bring healthy competition and force manufacturers to improve.. if people look around and see riders behaving like this theyre going to have a sour opinion before they even know wtf it is

Edited June 27, 2020 by Rywokast

[fryman]

In the US it will not be the Feds that will regulate, it will be cities and states. Currently I still can’t legally ride on bike/ pedestrian trails and ebikes are just now being allowed.