Reckless riding is going to get us banned

[Hsiang]

9 hours ago, Bertrand One said:

Hsiang, I love your content, but the poster you're quoting was obviously referring to the EUC community, not the wider world. They're not saying it should be on the news, especially not with everything else that's going on at the moment, they're saying that the EUC community should be calling out this stuff. They're right, too.

I disagree since the title of this thread states “this type of behavior will get us banned” that is the context for this entire discussion.

[houseofjob]

9 hours ago, gr8ps said:

These are the comments I got when I called out the NYC riders a few years ago. 

Wow, talk about taking comments from another thread and twisting it to support your narrative.

I STAND BY WHAT I SAID in that old comment you quoted in THAT THREAD, but now you copy-paste it into here OUT OF CONTEXT for a different incident. 

You best believe that this doesn't mean I agree with ALL rider behavior, especially not some of the stuff I saw here on the demo. There's a reason you don't see me in the more risqué clips from that day.

 

This is the problem with America: many guys talking from their high horses about incidents in places they've never experienced themselves, making critiques on subjects they have no experience with, and only listening to people who's opinions align with their own. No wonder we have social unrest bigger than ever right now.

Edited June 27, 2020 by houseofjob

[Hsiang]

8 hours ago, gr8ps said:

Now with @Hsiang saying what he is saying, it's pretty clear that this is a common theme. Maybe it is a cultural norm amongst NYC riders, or New Yorkers in general. However, some of the comments I'm reading calling out the behavior is from NYC riders themselves. The thread started in reddit seems to be from a local. In one of the youtube videos in the comments, the uploader David, calls out @Jediah Matthew (the infamous U-stride) for being unsafe, riding close to kids, etc. Even other NYC riders don't like U-stride to ride near them - in one of his videos he states that the e-riders asked him to follow at a distance because he caused a crash(es?) because of following too close. 

Regardless, I don't think these recent events have been a good look for the community. I'm unsubscribing and cutting off my measly Patreon. I don't want these sorts of videos to be the first exposure people get to this hobby. 

Sorry - this event triggered me. Maybe all this COVID stuff has made me irritable. 

There are two issues here;

1. Is exactly as the title states: will this type of behavior get us banned and my position is no, I don’t think it will, because we are still too niche and no one will regular something they don’t know exist.

2. How should we as a community react to this type of clips; and I am split on that, if a rider engage in an activity that can potentially endanger others, especially kids then yes we should complain and tell the guy what he’s doing is wrong. But as adults that can only go so far.

I saw the highway footage and asked that it not be posted, but it went up any way, and I knew that it was going to happen. The only way to control it is to not hold the demo and just ride the wheel myself and that’s it; there’re no better way to preserve a thing you love than to put it in a jar and take it to the grave with you. And that IMHO is the worst thing we can possible do.

EUC is growing and people around the world are discovering it and in the process trying things we don’t think are possible or are comfortable with, boy this is starting to sound like a talk about kids doesn’t it.. =D

[Unventor]

38 minutes ago, Hsiang said:

1. Is exactly as the title states: will this type of behavior get us banned and my position is no, I don’t think it will, because we are still too niche and no one will regular something they don’t know exist

That might be the case in the US/NY.

But in EU laws are already being discussed or have been pass down to regulate EUC or PEV. The EUC community in bigger countries of EU are fighting an uphill battle. 

A video clip of some going faster than 65kmh caused big problems in France. 

The crash of Kamikaze Joe were all over the social media news here in Sweden but other places too. 

Once riders disregard normal traffic safety standards that comes from physical laws then it becomes a much bigger issue. I am referring to what speed you ride vs reaction time vs braking distance. Once you go so very much faster in between others they do not anticipate this and are not aware of the risk. This causes people to react on what they all of a sudden detects. This is a basic reaction to something "dangerous" and thous do not always follow logic or expected reaction.

Since many don't hear an EUC coming until it is too late (might be their own headset zombie walk fault) if becomes very hard to avoid their reaction if they step into your path. Or a kid or dog just doing the same thing because they didn't know better.

Going 30-40-50-60 kmh in a pedestrian area (typical classes as 6kmh of walking speed] this becomes a real problem.

And this is what we see in EU being discussed properly mostly because rental escooters and people act seriously bad on these. It drags EUCs with them. And for good reason from the posted videos in the reddit post of the Veteran demo. It isn't the only incident. But the target group and what it can do puts it on the front line for people with these disregard for common sense and what I view as totally reckless behaviour. 

If I may put a very different situation in comparison. @Marty Backe had a crash recently. If you have been testing the Veteran on the road in that area you are not risking general public. It wasn't a pedestrian area, but a real road where cars move at the same speed, or mopeds or mc. In such an area your speed comes at equal terms. It is less risky to end up bad for others. I don't know what speed that crash was but the wheel did travel a bit. If a car had come in opposite direction it could end badly too. But those would be in a safer position.

Unless riders realized the difference then the title above will happen. Some place sooner than others. And youtubers shape this very much from how they talk about their riders too.

I am fully aware that some people are out of education react. But if you show a situation of ride incident to traffic enforcement then you are like to get an reaction. And now it isn't my values that make this. It is what works for all to be safe in traffic.

Edited June 27, 2020 by Unventor
The example about Marty, is a better place to ride fast. I am not thinking Marty have bad ride behaviour. Just to make that perfectly clear.

[Nic]

How much damage can a 50 mph 35 kg missile hurtling down the road really do? Surely it will just bounce off kids and family...

[Gasmantle]

2 hours ago, Hsiang said:

There are two issues here;

1. Is exactly as the title states: will this type of behavior get us banned and my position is no, I don’t think it will, because we are still too niche and no one will regular something they don’t know exist.

You may well be correct in saying this type of behaviour will not in itself get EUC's banned.

However, what is important is the safety of other innocent people, many are children or the elderly. They have a right to enjoy a walk along a pedestrianised area in the sunshine and expect to be safe. Any idiot that comes along at 30+ mph on a machine weighing possibly 70lbs (without the rider weight) deserves to have their machine crushed. This issue isn't so much about whether the governments will ban an activity but it is about respecting other peoples freedoms and their right to reasonably expect safety in public.

The activity in the initial video does nobody any favours, it might not result in us all getting banned from riding but it does put us all in the spotlight and paints an negative image. Many of us are trying to get EUC's legalised, the last thing we need is some halfwit riding like a maniac at high speed in a heavily used pedestrian area then posting his stupidity online for the whole world to see.

It's not a ban on EUC's that's needed, it's a ban on some of the idiots riding them. 

[someguy152]

On 6/26/2020 at 5:16 AM, buell47 said:

Don't know if NYC kids are double stupid, but it looks like. 

id imagine most are smart...it's mostly a groupthink thing

[travsformation]

"One person's freedom ends where the next person's rights begin".

“Do not Do unto others what you don't want others Do unto you.”

Pedestrians < EUCs/bicycles/escooters < motorcycles < cars < trucks/buses. 

Put yourself in the place of the most vulnerable person in every scenario and ride/drive around them like you would like to have them ride around you. Simple as.

[davinche]

3 hours ago, Hsiang said:

2. How should we as a community react to this type of clips; and I am split on that, if a rider engage in an activity that can potentially endanger others, especially kids then yes we should complain and tell the guy what he’s doing is wrong. But as adults that can only go so far.

This is why my main disappointment was in U-Stride.

But I think a common theme here that is causing so much distress is the lack of accountability. It is exactly for this reason why people are protesting police brutality. Police were/are getting away with shit that they shouldn't be getting away with.

So to a much lesser degree, there are some EUC riders who are also getting away with doing stupid shit that they shouldn't be getting away with.

3 hours ago, Hsiang said:

The only way to control it is to not hold the demo and just ride the wheel myself and that’s it; there’re no better way to preserve a thing you love than to put it in a jar and take it to the grave with you. And that IMHO is the worst thing we can possible do.

I agree that not holding demos would be detrimental, but I don't agree that it is the "only way to control it". Clearly there are a couple of people who have demonstrated that they can't handle the responsible/are willing to be held accountable for anything that could happen. So you ban them from future demos. Holding people accountable for their actions is the only way to move forward.

[Nic]

Maybe if these demos are planned and before letting someone ride the demo that will be filmed they can go over a plan of what action to capture and important safety considerations. Then if the rider doesn't stick to the plan they have everyone else to answer to. Just a thought. The fact that these events don't really have much of a cohesive plan and people just make it up as they go along and 'improvise' for the camera is what leads to bad decisions that on reflection might not have happened if some thought was put in beforehand.

[Darrell Wesh]

4 hours ago, Hsiang said:

saw the highway footage and asked that it not be posted, but it went up any way,

Why was it so bad to ride on the “highway” that has a speed limit of 40mph? You guys were keeping up and not impeding anyone. I don’t see a difference between an EUC and a moped or motorcycle in this regard. 

Edited June 27, 2020 by Darrell Wesh

[davinche]

2 minutes ago, Darrell Wesh said:

Why was it so bad to ride on the “highway” that has a speed limit of 40mph? You guys were keeping up and not impeding anyone. I don’t see a difference between an EUC and a moped or motorcycle in this regard. 

The speed is not the only issue. The difference is that a motorcycle, car etc are registered. You need a license to operate them. They are tied to an owner. So if anything happens, the vehicle owner is held accountable. The same can't be said for EUCs.

[Darrell Wesh]

6 minutes ago, davinche said:

The speed is not the only issue. The difference is that a motorcycle, car etc are registered. You need a license to operate them. They are tied to an owner. So if anything happens, the vehicle owner is held accountable. The same can't be said for EUCs.

Umm so? why is that any different than riding an EUC on the roads in the city? The highway is a straight shot, faster speeds don’t make it more dangerous. The highway is remarkably safer than city streets with all their distractions, turns, lights etc. 

[seage]

I don't know about everyone, as i cant speak for everyone, but over here in the GTA, even before I knew what EUC's were, we understood that things flowed differently in different states. We probably understood Americas flow more than Canada's, as we get fed more media from you. I have no idea whats happening in Prince Edward Island..at ALL. But i know just how different New York is from Los Angeles and so on. And with that, we also understood how a cyclist in LA would probably DIE if they rode like the crazy people in NY. We just got that there were different flows. Now fast forward to EUC's and suddenly, everyone is being held to the same standards of riding in their own cities. And if a person rides how the local culture enforces, in a sense, that person is "an asshole" in the other persons eyes. But then we see video of India, Thailand, Vietnam and so on and traffic is crazy, but because its so far its more fascinating than insane and dangerous and in need of yelling. But from what ive seen with american culture, each state is kinda like its own mini country in a way in the way that people behave, speak, navigate. I heard Lutalo say "bama" the other day and had to google that shit and found its a local word. Wat? Now this whole thing is just to say, lets lay off ripping on the NY guys for riding like NY guys. 

On the flip though, irresponsible dumb shit DOES need to be called out. U-stride tearing inches from a child on a bike path needs to be called out. Posting videos riding on the highway when we KNOW that shit allllways makes the news for everyone who does it regardless of the sport, needs to not happen and the people need to be called out for that dumb shit. 

Its just that i see two sides colliding in here, and usually when this stuff comes up. First its the general anger at people doing reckless things, like speeding down a populated bike path, which is stupid as shit, imo. You don't go that fast around pedestrians. Stick to the road. And second, its hating on the New Yorkers AGAIN because of their aggressive style. Lets cut out the second one. Lets stop with the name calling and guilt tripping and focus on the main point, which is our general image and holding people accountable for silliness. You're not gonna stop a New Yorker from being a New Yorker. They could agree to everything you say on here, then the moment they go outside and almost get pincered between a taxi and a parked car, or t boned by a random "ATV going through a red (lol), they're gonna go back into NY survival mode and keep flowing to survive in their city. But what we CAN do is ask people to try to think a bit harder before posting a video on a highway, or bunny hopping over a toddler. But also understand that if people from outside the country can look and see that a NY cyclist does not match up with a Texan cyclist, im sure others can too. Or at least i hope. We do have other stereotypes for american's, lol. 

 

I just always see this. People ripping on the NYers, some of which are amazing people and give us so much information and passion in this hobby. And the NYers have to come and defend themselves, even if they're not even apart of the nonsense thats gone on, because people are intent on misunderstanding or brushing aside lived experiences and realities that people in that city have to live with. Its not "oh so they're from NY so they get a pass" its, they're from a place that flows different so they do what they do to go with that flow. That's really it. You don't need to like it, but its a reality. Being a cyclist for half my life and travelling around I got to learn sometimes the hard way, just how different a city can be and how you have to adapt to it or get off the road. And again, this isn't say ALL behaviour is protected under the NY immunity act. They act like morons sometimes just like the rest of us, but just lets focus on the acts more than slandering where they're from. 

 

Oh, also, i don't think there will ever be a blanket ban, but some places that already want to take out PEV's will quickly jump on or create their own negative media to ban it, so they can continue destroying you with insurance and making that oil and petrol money. Yum yum. Corruption. 

Alright, peace. 

[Nic]

24 minutes ago, Darrell Wesh said:

Why was it so bad to ride on the “highway” that has a speed limit of 40mph? You guys were keeping up and not impeding anyone. I don’t see a difference between an EUC and a moped or motorcycle in this regard. 

The difference between an EUC and a motorcycle is that a motorcycle cannot spontaneously turn into an unmanned projectile due to its engine cutting out. Two wheels are also more stable than one.

[davinche]

  

16 minutes ago, Darrell Wesh said:

Umm so? why is that any different than riding an EUC on the roads in the city? The highway is a straight shot, faster speeds don’t make it more dangerous. The highway is remarkably safer than city streets with all their distractions, turns, lights etc. 

Your original question is "why is it so bad to ride on the highway" and the "difference between an EUC and [motorcycle,cars etc]". I addressed your question - I did not say anything about how dangerous anything is. So your argument is fallacious from the start. Please don't assume a position I didn't take.

But to answer your question on "why is that any different than riding an EUC on the roads in the city", legally speaking (and yes I know it differs between states, so this is a generality) you should only be able to ride an EUC on the roads at a certain speed limit. Anything beyond that is illegal. So the assumption I'm going to make is that 40mph is way above the legal limit for an unregistered device. That is the difference. Only registered vehicles should be on the highway.

Edited June 27, 2020 by davinche

[Hsiang]

1 hour ago, davinche said:

So to a much lesser degree, there are some EUC riders who are also getting away with doing stupid shit that they shouldn't be getting away with.

I agree that not holding demos would be detrimental, but I don't agree that it is the "only way to control it". Clearly there are a couple of people who have demonstrated that they can't handle the responsible/are willing to be held accountable for anything that could happen. So you ban them from future demos. Holding people accountable for their actions is the only way to move forward.

The thought did cross my mind, however I am NOT so filled with myself so as to think that I can be the one passing judgement as to who’s safe and who’s not. Also, this is not an online forum where banning semi anonymouspeople is as easy as hitting a button. YOU try to telling one of your friend that they aren’t invited to the BBQ no more cuz they drank too much and was too rowdy. No quicker way to poison the well and turn people against each other IMHO.

To me it was either everyone got access or no one, I actually don’t even think letting no one try it was an option as Ewheel did not send me the sherman just for my own gratification, it was always intended to be for the community here.

I do have to say that I am noticing a cultural split between the long time EUC riders here on the forum and the “new bloods” the 0G riders enjoy riding even at the lower speed and see the performance enhancement as additional safe guard, while the newer guys got into EUC precisely because of the performance, they bought gotway because it can do 45 and telling them to slow down would be as effective as telling a corvette driver to not drive past the speed limit. 

 

 

Edited June 27, 2020 by Hsiang

[davinche]

14 minutes ago, seage said:

I just always see this. People ripping on the NYers, some of which are amazing people and give us so much information and passion in this hobby. And the NYers have to come and defend themselves, even if they're not even apart of the nonsense thats gone on, because people are intent on misunderstanding or brushing aside lived experiences and realities that people in that city have to live with. Its not "oh so they're from NY so they get a pass" its, they're from a place that flows different so they do what they do to go with that flow. That's really it. You don't need to like it, but its a reality. Being a cyclist for half my life and travelling around I got to learn sometimes the hard way, just how different a city can be and how you have to adapt to it or get off the road. And again, this isn't say ALL behaviour is protected under the NY immunity act. They act like morons sometimes just like the rest of us, but just lets focus on the acts more than slandering where they're from.

Agreed. I appreciate content creators like evx and Hsiang since they seem fairly responsible and provides the EUC community the content we need to stay informed, but also help the community grow.

I used to subscribe to UStride since his earlier videos are pretty informative and he seemed to be a good advocator of responsible riding... but his most recent video along with his inability to take criticism / own up to his mistake leads me to believe that he is no longer the exemplar EUC rider that he advocated everyone to be.

[Gasmantle]

35 minutes ago, Darrell Wesh said:

Why was it so bad to ride on the “highway” that has a speed limit of 40mph? You guys were keeping up and not impeding anyone. I don’t see a difference between an EUC and a moped or motorcycle in this regard. 

I guess if you can't see the difference between an EUC and a motorcycle at 40mph then there lies your problem.

I'd have though it obvious why a vehicle with one wheel and no 'active' braking is far more a danger to public safety than a 2 wheeled one with 'proper' braking.

As other members have already said, motorcycles are licensed to a person, they need insurance, they have to satisfy minimum safety standards, riders require training, there are age limits, medical limitations etc. None of these apply to an EUC.

Vehicle failure is more likely on an EUC than a motorcycle and will almost certainly be harder to control - when did you last hear of motorcyclists worrying about engine cut outs at 40mph?

We all enjoy riding EUc's and none of us want to see them banned but if people can't see the risks of riding at 40mph on crowded highways or pedestrianised areas. they should't be riding at all

 

[travsformation]

FTR, U-Stride has pinned a comment to the video in reaction to all the critical comments:

**After reading so many of your comments on riding location for such speeds, I think it's something we should bring up for the next demo, or any testing in general. The wheels are getting not only faster but heavier and more durable. Very good guys keep up with the critiques. It is needed** forgot to mention: later in the day the guys did end up going to the streets. So that was good 😎✌🏾

Better late than never...

I'm doubtful whether that involves a change in mindset but, just thought I'd leave it here FTR

 

Edited June 27, 2020 by travsformation

[davinche]

35 minutes ago, Hsiang said:

The thought did cross my mind, however I am NOT so filled with myself so as to think that I can be the one passing judgement as to who’s safe and who’s not. Also, this is not an online forum where banning semi anonymouspeople is as easy as hitting a button. YOU try to telling one of your friend that they aren’t invited to the BBQ no more cuz they drank too much and was too rowdy. No quicker way to poison the well and turn people against each other IMHO.

To me it was either everyone got access or no one, I actually don’t even think letting no one try it was an option as Ewheel did not send me the sherman just for my own gratification, it was always intended to be for the community here.

True. This is a pretty tough problem to solve. But even with friends, when you invite them over to your place, you lay out the house rules right? So if they find themselves uninvited to things because they constantly break the rules, it shouldn't be a surprise to them? Relationships, people, human interactions etc are tough and I get that, but I wouldn't fall into the line of thinking that just because it's tough it is reason enough to take no action.

But to your point about EWheels sending the wheel for the community, I guess ultimately some clarification needs to be made by ewheels? From what I've seen, the wheel is passed from YouTuber to YouTuber, and how they choose to showcase/demo the wheel is up to their own discretion. I do agree that by sending it to you, there is probably some intention for the wheel to be tested by the most aggressive riders. Which is all fine IMO, but I would assume that which riders and where they should test the wheel should be up to you? Maybe @Jason McNeil can provide some more insight on the intention.

35 minutes ago, Hsiang said:

I do have to say that I am noticing a cultural split between the long time EUC riders here on the forum and the “new bloods” the 0G riders enjoy riding even at the lower speed and see the performance enhancement as additional safe guard, while the newer guys got into EUC precisely because of the performance, they bought gotway because it can do 45 and telling them to slow down would be as effective as telling a corvette driver to not drive past the speed limit.

For sure. I also purchased a Nikola (before it burnt up) for performance as well. Personally, speed is not the issue for me. I've stated many times that I myself strive to acquire the ability of riding at higher speeds with control. But as I also mentioned before, I separate my opinions on the process of mastering something from the application of said mastery.

Edited June 27, 2020 by davinche

[tudordewolf]

1 hour ago, Hsiang said:

I do have to say that I am noticing a cultural split between the long time EUC riders here on the forum and the “new bloods” the 0G riders enjoy riding even at the lower speed and see the performance enhancement as additional safe guard, while the newer guys got into EUC precisely because of the performance, they bought gotway because it can do 45 and telling them to slow down would be as effective as telling a corvette driver to not drive past the speed limit. 

 

I think a lot of that might boil down to experience. When you first get into it, it's like you just learned to fly, it's exhilarating. It took me a few spills to mellow out that enthusiasm for maximum speed.

I'd say I went through 3 stages - first, tentative excitement with occasional falls that keep you careful. Once I was comfortable controlling the wheel, I started riding everywhere pretty aggressively, got both cocky and complacent, and broke my right radius falling in the street. Now I probably max out at 20mph and even then find myself cruising slower if it's nice out.

  I got a big gotway for the specs, but it also feels safer at low speeds - the torque overhead to handle an unseen divot or missing cobblestone means it bounces fairly aggressively, but doesn't tip you off the way smaller wheels would, and there's lots you can do with its acceleration and braking while staying below 20mph. Just going fast in a straight line is one of the less interesting things an EUC offers to me.

Edited June 27, 2020 by tudordewolf

[davinche]

13 minutes ago, travsformation said:

I'm doubtful whether that involves a change in mindset but, just thought I'd leave it here FTR

Yeah... reading the comments it just screamed of an egotistical, unapologetic, lack of self awareness individual. That's why I unsubscribed. Whereas with Hsiang, I don't think people should be giving him that hard time since he openly admitted that the location for this new wheel was a mistake. Everyone makes mistakes and it is fine as long as we all learn from them.

[travsformation]

3 minutes ago, davinche said:

Yeah... reading the comments it just screamed of an egotistical, unapologetic, lack of self awareness individual. That's why I unsubscribed. Whereas with Hsiang, I don't think people should be giving him that hard time since he openly admitted that the location for this new wheel was a mistake. Everyone makes mistakes and it is fine as long as we all learn from them.

Yeah, I'm not too sure why Hsiang is getting all this slack. Guilty by association? He comes through as a sensible, reasonable guy and is very diplomatic in his comments. I think a lot of anger is being directed at the wrong person here...

[gr8ps]

6 hours ago, houseofjob said:

Wow, talk about taking comments from another thread and twisting it to support your narrative.

 

How is it twisting? I called out what I saw to be unnecessarily risky behavior in that old thread. I saw Tishawn and others blow through stop signs, red lights, and cross walks with pedestrians crossing. I'm not sure if it was that specific video but I distinctly remembering him purposely going directly towards a woman walking away from him and then veering away to the left on purpose. It stuck with me because I thought it was unnecessarily risky to the pedestrian who has no decision in the matter and very self-centered behavior. The responses I got from you and other NYC riders was that it was normal in NYC. Essentially what I got out of it was your opinion doesn't matter on this unless you live here and I left it at that.

The narrative you say I'm supporting by twisting the prior thread is me stating that maybe that sort of risky behavior is the norm, either amongst NYC e-riders or New Yorkers in general. I supported that statement by quoting what you and other NYC riders have said in the past when called out for what others perceive as bad behavior. I don't see how that is twisting anything.

I didn't agree with the riding style in NYC then but I chalked it up to what you said, I just didn't get it. I know I ride differently downtown San Diego compared to the less urban areas. Maybe NYC was at a different level. Now this recent behavior of NYC riders, with beat downs in the middle of the street, freeway riding, purposely trying to cut-out a 60lb wheel in a street with cars parked to the side that the wheel could crash into while a pedestrian crossing, speeding in pathways and buzzing right by families with kids ... way to egregious.

 

The interesting thing was that @Jediah Matthew (U-stride) wasn't always like this, or at least he hid it well. I used to be a big fan, a long-time subscriber,watched almost all his uploads that have a topic and even watched him ride to buy a bottle of ketchup. He spoke about shenanigans, not ruining it for others, responsible riding, and all that. I felt he had a good message and was a good ambassador. It happened slowly but he devolved into what we are seeing now. I hope this serves as a wake-up call to him and maybe other NYC riders to tone down their behavior some and to not impose risks on others that haven't signed up for it. 

 

Edited June 27, 2020 by gr8ps
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