!!! Firmware or hardware problems with KS18L, wheels locking up while trolleying

[Circuitmage]

@nte, yes, see my original post. I had 1.07 since day 1 after upgrading, but I did not recalibrate.

 

I just disabled lift sensor in app

Edited July 16, 2018 by Circuitmage

[eddiemoy]

40 minutes ago, LILLO said:

 

Hi Eddiemoy! where can i find the document you shared? can you give me a link please?

It is personal communication from vendor to one person in our group that had the issue.  Think there was one other person in our group that had the issue.

[Seba]

Today I expect arrival of my KS18L. First steps I've planned just after unpacking is to update firmware to 1.0.7 and to disable lift sensor. However I've also bought a small electric screwdriver to always carry with me in my backpack when riding KS18L. And it's a hint I wanted to share with you - to have a screwdriver with you all the time you ride KS18L (preferably the electric one, to save precious time when problem arise) until the problem with trolleying will be definitely resolved.

[WARPed1701D]

4 minutes ago, Seba said:

Today I expect arrival of my KS18L. First steps I've planned just after unpacking is to update firmware to 1.0.7 and to disable lift sensor. However I've also bought a small electric screwdriver to always carry with me in my backpack when riding KS18L. And it's a hint I wanted to share with you - to have a screwdriver with you all the time you ride KS18L (preferably the electric one, to save precious time when problem arise) until the problem with trolleying will be definitely resolved.

This is a good idea but might I add that it be a folding tool like a Leatherman or an appropriate Swiss Army Knife. A fall onto something like a screwdriver could make a bad day much much worse.

I like KingSong wheels but this current situation is a little unforgivable. The last thing this industry needs are exploding EUCs a'la hoverboard style. KingSong should put a halt to all 18L sales until this is 100% resolved. 

[Seba]

5 minutes ago, WARPed1701D said:

This is a good idea but might I add that it be a folding tool like a Leatherman or an appropriate Swiss Army Knife. A fall onto something like a screwdriver could make a bad day much much worse.

You're right, and this is another reason that I've bought a small, electric Ryobi screwdriver with detachable bits. It doesn't pose a risk of stabbing yourself when you fall onto it.

Edited July 17, 2018 by Seba

[TomOnWheels]

11 minutes ago, WARPed1701D said:

This is a good idea but might I add that it be a folding tool like a Leatherman or an appropriate Swiss Army Knife. A fall onto something like a screwdriver could make a bad day much much worse.

I like KingSong wheels but this current situation is a little unforgivable. The last thing this industry needs are exploding EUCs a'la hoverboard style. KingSong should put a halt to all 18L sales until this is 100% resolved. 

Honestly, it's not so bad... The wheel is safe, powerful, and works out of the box... The issue with trolley, make it less practical but is not blocking. I'm agree it's not perfect but I'm EUC user since almost 5 years now, and from far it's the best wheel I had in my life... especially knowing that all we are complaining about is some additional features that was not even existing when I start riding EUCs...

[Seba]

4 minutes ago, TomOnWheels said:

Honestly, it's not so bad... The wheel is safe, powerful, and works out of the box... The issue with trolley, make it less practical but is not blocking. I'm agree it's not perfect but I'm EUC user since almost 5 years now, and from far it's the best wheel I had in my life... especially knowing that all we are complaining about is some additional features that was not even existing when I start riding EUCs...

I think the problem arose from the EUC manufacturers' race - everyone wanted to introduce their new product this year, everyone wanted to be the first and to get the largest sale before buyers spend their money on the product of the competition. Inmotion V10 isn't free of problems also. Kingsong,  Inmotion and Ninebot - all had delays with their new wheels and all of them was in hurry to finally start delivering their new flagships.

[Circuitmage]

I had 73km on mine with 7 days riding. FW 1.07 is not the fix.

Seems related to lift sensor, so I disabled that in app. Carrying a screw driver is a good idea.

[WARPed1701D]

3 hours ago, Seba said:

I think the problem arose from the EUC manufacturers' race - everyone wanted to introduce their new product this year, everyone wanted to be the first and to get the largest sale before buyers spend their money on the product of the competition. Inmotion V10 isn't free of problems also. Kingsong,  Inmotion and Ninebot - all had delays with their new wheels and all of them was in hurry to finally start delivering their new flagships.

The rush to release before their competitors and before the summer season is over is undoubtedly a reason for so many missteps by the manufacturers.

InMotion most certainly has it's share of problems with the V10 range but they are comparatively minor rideability issues and do not present a risk of a runaway Li-Ion fire as a result of locked mainboard and open MOSFETs. That is the issue here. This is a potentially dangerous situation if the wheel is left in the locked up state. Not everyone reads these forums an knows to disable the lift sensor or pull their wheel apart ASAP in a lock-up. No rider should have to carry a toolkit with them to avoid a potential fire in their wheel. The 18L should be pulled from sale until a safe firmware is confirmed and tested and existing units in the warehouse should be re-flashed before dispatch to customers in the same manner the MSuper was.

Ninebot and Gotway (surprise!) are about the only manufacturers that deserve respect right now for their new wheels. Ninebot for pushing production back where necessary (hopefully to release a reliable wheel) and Gotway for apparently producing a reliable wheel so far with the MSX (could be wrong here as I've not been following the MSX threads).

Edited July 17, 2018 by WARPed1701D

[TomOnWheels]

12 minutes ago, WARPed1701D said:

The rush to release before their competitors and before the summer season is over is undoubtedly a reason for so many missteps by the manufacturers.

InMotion most certainly has it's share of problems with the V10 range but they are comparatively minor rideability issues and do not present a risk of a runaway Li-Ion fire as a result of locked mainboard and open MOSFETs. That is the issue here. This is a potentially dangerous situation if the wheel is left in the locked up state. Not everyone reads these forums an knows to disable the lift sensor or pull their wheel apart ASAP in a lock-up. No rider should have to carry a toolkit with them to avoid a potential fire in their wheel. The 18L should be pulled from sale until a safe firmware is confirmed and tested and existing units in the warehouse should be re-flashed before dispatch to customers in the same manner the MSuper was.

Ninebot and Gotway (surprise!) are about the only manufacturers that deserve respect right now for their new wheels. Ninebot for pushing production back where necessary (hopefully to release a reliable wheel) and Gotway for apparently producing a reliable wheel so far with the MSX (could be wrong here as I've not been following the MSX threads).

There as fuses that will save the battery and the battery itself has a cut-off circuit if of danger of destruction or fire (this is mandatory by law at last in Europe). Also when my wheel firmware crashed it was in trolley mode (all crashes on KS18L seems to be in this mode only) - this is not a danger of a rider at last. The energy my battery lost when it was in fault mode is compatible with what it will loose if I was riding the wheel... We have a case here where a user connect the power cable to its gotway and that produced fire and burn his hand... Also we have a case of a new inmotion V10F that took fire after a very violent crash against a wall at high speed... I'm not taking defense or trying to be on the side of any EUC builder but I'm just trying to make it clear: all wheels are having issues, some of them are really dangerous and some of them are just annoying. KS18L issue with firmware is for me mostly annoying, happens to less then 0.01% of users and thoses wheels even if left without disconnecting the battery will probably endup with the battery empty and no fire... (I did not hear about any case of fire reported by users or KS).

[Stan Onymous]

28 minutes ago, WARPed1701D said:

The rush to release before their competitors and before the summer season is over is undoubtedly a reason for so many missteps by the manufacturers.

Totally agree with this statement, and those manufacturers that have delayed their machines are about to release theirs over halfway through the Summer.

I wonder how many of those from InMotion V10s and Kingsong 18Ls will be pleased that at least they were able to ride their machines until the fix was settled. They may have even had input on the final ride of the vehicle. Aside from the worries of damage to the internals, I enjoy and learn a lot from observing the physical limits of the vehicles without injuring people.

There is a trade off in getting the finished(for now) product when ready and the work in progress which you add to the finishing by receiving them earlier. Time will tell  ?️

“Also we have a case of a new inmotion V10F that took fire after a very violent crash against a wall at high speed..“  Yeah, I hate it when those walls just jump out at you. Only you can stop EUC abuse. 

 

Edited July 17, 2018 by Stan Onymous
Question

[WARPed1701D]

1 hour ago, TomOnWheels said:

There as fuses that will save the battery and the battery itself has a cut-off circuit if of danger of destruction or fire (this is mandatory by law at last in Europe). Also when my wheel firmware crashed it was in trolley mode (all crashes on KS18L seems to be in this mode only) - this is not a danger of a rider at last. The energy my battery lost when it was in fault mode is compatible with what it will loose if I was riding the wheel... We have a case here where a user connect the power cable to its gotway and that produced fire and burn his hand... Also we have a case of a new inmotion V10F that took fire after a very violent crash against a wall at high speed... I'm not taking defense or trying to be on the side of any EUC builder but I'm just trying to make it clear: all wheels are having issues, some of them are really dangerous and some of them are just annoying. KS18L issue with firmware is for me mostly annoying, happens to less then 0.01% of users and thoses wheels even if left without disconnecting the battery will probably endup with the battery empty and no fire... (I did not hear about any case of fire reported by users or KS).

this is not a danger of a rider at last: The rider may not faceplant as a result of this problem but to say there is no risk to the rider is a stretch. Didn't you say in another post that the motor got so hot the user could smell burning rubber? WHAT!

We have a case here where a user connect the power cable to its gotway and that produced fire and burn his hand: Gotway's persistent refusal until now to reverse protect their charging port with a diode is perplexing but this is the only case I know of this happening unless people deliberately stick their keys in the port (which has been done for some reason). A bit of a stretch to compare these incidents.

Inmotion V10F that took fire after a very violent crash against a wall at high speed: Being physically compromised because a violent collision cannot be compared to a wheel burning up through normal usage.

I'm not taking defense or trying to be on the side of any EUC builder: Are you sure because I'm not seeing any valid arguments here. I don't mean to be rude but is this a case of Fanboyism?

All wheels are having issues, some of them are really dangerous and some of them are just annoying: Yes the 18L is potentially dangerous. The V10 is annoying. I don't know of any other wheel issues right now.

happens to less then 0.01% of users: Where did you get this figure from? Because there seem to be a lot of reports on here of failures and not many people have the 18L yet. I'd say this percentage is much higher especially among those who do not know to turn off the kill switch..

Even if left without disconnecting the battery will probably endup with the battery empty and no fire: Probably! Awesome. I'll take two.

Look I'm not trying to pick on you here and don't want to create bad feeling but I feel this is a nasty and potentially dangerous problem. Our opinion differs. That's fine.

The 18L looks like a great wheel. I'm not trying to beat it down or berate it. I'm just saying that a wheel that gets so hot it smells of burning rubber should not be entering the homes of customers until fixed. If this were a Gotway wheel people would be climbing over themselves to shout about it being dangerous and demanding action. KingSong should not get a pass here. 1 fire...1 death from a fire... is all it will take for the government to knee jerk react with the hoverboard fiasco fresh in their mind.

Edited July 17, 2018 by WARPed1701D

[Circuitmage]

I would only disagree about the 0.01% of users statement. My new 16S had a controller malfunction and had to be replaced. Now I worry that this may have caused an issue with my new 18L board.

I believe we are just beta testers for new devices. Not that that's a bad thing, just have to consider what you are getting yourself into. We are risking life and limb for these things.

Also, when I reconnected my battery, there was a loud "POP". Sounded like a cap discharge...I don't want to know how much energy was in that cap, or what that may have also done to my main board.

[Xoltri]

4 minutes ago, Circuitmage said:

Also, when I reconnected my battery, there was a loud "POP". Sounded like a cap discharge...I don't want to know how much energy was in that cap, or what that may have also done to my main board.

That is fairly normal with the battery connector, they say just to connect it as fast as you can to minimize sparking.  However on my MSuperX they have an anti spark connector so it did not spark.

[TomOnWheels]

1 hour ago, WARPed1701D said:

this is not a danger of a rider at last: The rider may not faceplant as a result of this problem but to say there is no risk to the rider is a stretch. Didn't you say in another post that the motor got so hot the user could smell burning rubber? WHAT!

We have a case here where a user connect the power cable to its gotway and that produced fire and burn his hand: Gotway's persistent refusal until now to reverse protect their charging port with a diode is perplexing but this is the only case I know of this happening unless people deliberately stick their keys in the port (which has been done for some reason). A bit of a stretch to compare these incidents.

Inmotion V10F that took fire after a very violent crash against a wall at high speed: Being physically compromised because a violent collision cannot be compared to a wheel burning up through normal usage.

I'm not taking defense or trying to be on the side of any EUC builder: Are you sure because I'm not seeing any valid arguments here. I don't mean to be rude but is this a case of Fanboyism?

All wheels are having issues, some of them are really dangerous and some of them are just annoying: Yes the 18L is potentially dangerous. The V10 is annoying. I don't know of any other wheel issues right now.

happens to less then 0.01% of users: Where did you get this figure from? Because there seem to be a lot of reports on here of failures and not many people have the 18L yet. I'd say this percentage is much higher especially among those who do not know to turn off the kill switch..

Even if left without disconnecting the battery will probably endup with the battery empty and no fire: Probably! Awesome. I'll take two.

Look I'm not trying to pick on you here and don't want to create bad feeling but I feel this is a nasty and potentially dangerous problem. Our opinion differs. That's fine.

The 18L looks like a great wheel. I'm not trying to beat it down or berate it. I'm just saying that a wheel that gets so hot it smells of burning rubber should not be entering the homes of customers until fixed. If this were a Gotway wheel people would be climbing over themselves to shout about it being dangerous and demanding action. KingSong should not get a pass here. 1 fire...1 death from a fire... is all it will take for the government to knee jerk react with the hoverboard fiasco fresh in their mind.

Actually for tire to emit some smell you need quite a low temperature... but yes there is no risk to the rider... as all this happening when the rider is not riding... but ok let say this point is not very clear. As for the rest of wheels brands, sorry but they are as much shitty as KS... Please read some post around and spend 5 years as a technical consultant/expert for a local distributor, you will notice that Gotway, Immotion, and most EUC are not perfect... Fanaboyism, well you was one of the first person to comment on my post when I subscribed to this forum... And guess on what post did you comment ? Uniwheel ! ? And do you know why I'm new to this forum ? Just because it's my first KS wheel... I was a Solowheel guy before (from the very first to Xtrem version). Are you sure that actually instead of being rude you comment is simply to short ? 0.01% of users is actually what I see while doing support to users and what I get from different distributors around the world... But ok you are right, maybe it's 0.02%, in fact I did not measure it and KS keep this confidential. As you said we can have different opinions, and this is fine, it's even very constructive sometimes ! Just my last feeling on that: there is no case of KS18L taking fire to my memory ? There is some picture of PCB posted, but they are fake as some people stated after analyzing the picture (there is simply no components that can get hot at the location where the picture is showing damage). Some cases of the firmware crash, that some users reported (me as one of the first... I should not as a fanboy, right ? ? ) happens outside, after a long walk in trolley mode... Where is the danger... Is there anycase of KS18L that took fire ?

[winter]

 

Edited August 18, 2018 by nte

[WARPed1701D]

6 minutes ago, nte said:

There was a 0.01% (2 out of 200) failed control boards reference some place from King Song but I can't find it atm. KS may have shipped 200 wheels but not all of them have reached the buyers yet.

That is 1%. 100 times more than 0.01% but regardless the discussion is of locked and heating wheels not board failures which I would suggest is more prevalent. It would seem these wheels can be saved from meltdown if the owner react quick enough.

[WARPed1701D]

20 minutes ago, TomOnWheels said:

Actually for tire to emit some smell you need quite a low temperature... but yes there is no risk to the rider... as all this happening when the rider is not riding... but ok let say this point is not very clear. As for the rest of wheels brands, sorry but they are as much shitty as KS... Please read some post around and spend 5 years as a technical consultant/expert for a local distributor, you will notice that Gotway, Immotion, and most EUC are not perfect... Fanaboyism, well you was one of the first person to comment on my post when I subscribed to this forum... And guess on what post did you comment ? Uniwheel ! ? And do you know why I'm new to this forum ? Just because it's my first KS wheel... I was a Solowheel guy before (from the very first to Xtrem version). Are you sure that actually instead of being rude you comment is simply to short ? 0.01% of users is actually what I see while doing support to users and what I get from different distributors around the world... But ok you are right, maybe it's 0.02%, in fact I did not measure it and KS keep this confidential. As you said we can have different opinions, and this is fine, it's even very constructive sometimes ! Just my last feeling on that: there is no case of KS18L taking fire to my memory ? There is some picture of PCB posted, but they are fake as some people stated after analyzing the picture (there is simply no components that can get hot at the location where the picture is showing damage). Some cases of the firmware crash, that some users reported (me as one of the first... I should not as a fanboy, right ? ? ) happens outside, after a long walk in trolley mode... Where is the danger... Is there anycase of KS18L that took fire ?

I never said KingSong wheels or the 18L shitty. I said the exact opposite. It looks like a great wheel and for a while I have wanted an 18S. But the 18L shouldn't be sold until the issue is resolved. I also never said any wheel was perfect. I called out the V10 as being a poor show.

I've also have no idea what Uniwheel has to do with this conversation and I'm no Uniwheel fanboy. I did think that in certain last mile uses cases it was potentially a great wheel but that was about it.

You think it isn't a big deal. Fine. I think it is. I'm sure much is lost in translation here but the fact you are grabbing at random straws and suggesting I have said something I have not to defend your position shows IMO it is a weak one. I've said my bit. You've said yours. KingSong won't give a shit what either of us say so lets just forget it and move on.

[ygsoft]

I also happened when the wheel was locked in the process of rolling over the handle on the supermarket. At that time there was firmware 1.07. I managed to disconnect the batteries in about 20 minutes. I found that the engine and the electronic board were very hot. After 5 minutes, I connected the batteries and my mono-wheel normally worked. Now I'm afraid to use a speed of more than 10-15 km / h. I will try to disable the pressure sensors and check the operation of the wheel in this form.

[novazeus]

i bricked a kingsong wheel on a firmware update that went bad and the wheel would not turn off and was very hard to turn. 

i held the power button down for about ten seconds and it eventually would cut off. i wonder if this would work in this situation.

[esaj]

33 minutes ago, ygsoft said:

I also happened when the wheel was locked in the process of rolling over the handle on the supermarket. At that time there was firmware 1.07. I managed to disconnect the batteries in about 20 minutes. I found that the engine and the electronic board were very hot. After 5 minutes, I connected the batteries and my mono-wheel normally worked. Now I'm afraid to use a speed of more than 10-15 km / h. I will try to disable the pressure sensors and check the operation of the wheel in this form.

This is the fifth case in total and third with firmware 1.07 by my calculations. Correct?

Edited July 17, 2018 by esaj

[TomOnWheels]

1 hour ago, WARPed1701D said:

I never said KingSong wheels or the 18L shitty. I said the exact opposite. It looks like a great wheel and for a while I have wanted an 18S. But the 18L shouldn't be sold until the issue is resolved. I also never said any wheel was perfect. I called out the V10 as being a poor show.

I've also have no idea what Uniwheel has to do with this conversation and I'm no Uniwheel fanboy. I did think that in certain last mile uses cases it was potentially a great wheel but that was about it.

You think it isn't a big deal. Fine. I think it is. I'm sure much is lost in translation here but the fact you are grabbing at random straws and suggesting I have said something I have not to defend your position shows IMO it is a weak one. I've said my bit. You've said yours. KingSong won't give a shit what either of us say so lets just forget it and move on.

Uniwheel was just to say that you was one of the first to comment on my 1st post on that forum... That all ! And also to tell you that it's probably better to check before calling someone fanboy... I never said that you a Uniwheel fanboy... We have different opinions but I think this is just fine... It's not a problem... And it was not my point to say that you said something that you didn't...

[WARPed1701D]

Just now, TomOnWheels said:

Uniwheel was just to say that you was one of the first to comment on my 1st post on that forum... That all ! And also to tell you that it's probably better to check before calling someone fanboy... I never said that you a Uniwheel fanboy... We have different opinions but I think this is just fine... It's not a problem... And it was not my point to say that you said something that you didn't...

OK. I apologize. Fanboyism was the wrong word for my feeling that something is driving you to defend what I feel is a potentially dangerous situation. I just can't comprehend how anyone can be OK with a wheel being sold that is locking up and causing high current load and heat stresses on the motor, battery, and electronics and relying on the fact that it won't ignite before the BMS detects either low battery or an abnormal battery condition (because the mainboard probably won't shut it down at the usual low battery voltage) or the user strips the wheel down to access the battery connectors.

Let's just leave it at that. If I upset or offended you I didn't mean too. You defended your argument. I defended mine and admit I used the wrong word. I'm sure some harmless  points were misunderstood between us. That is the problem with relying on the written word alone. Peace.

[TomOnWheels]

35 minutes ago, WARPed1701D said:

OK. I apologize. Fanboyism was the wrong word for my feeling that something is driving you to defend what I feel is a potentially dangerous situation. I just can't comprehend how anyone can be OK with a wheel being sold that is locking up and causing high current load and heat stresses on the motor, battery, and electronics and relying on the fact that it won't ignite before the BMS detects either low battery or an abnormal battery condition (because the mainboard probably won't shut it down at the usual low battery voltage) or the user strips the wheel down to access the battery connectors.

Let's just leave it at that. If I upset or offended you I didn't mean too. You defended your argument. I defended mine and admit I used the wrong word. I'm sure some harmless  points were misunderstood between us. That is the problem with relying on the written word alone. Peace.

No worries, I just hate fanboyism that why I react that way. And yes you are right, I defend this wheel but I try to be quite neutral and say good and bad things I will about it. I'm not happy with all that issues, but let say I can wait a little bit for a fix knowing that I know a workaround. All what you say make sens of course ! That will be perfect if for example they make a right usage of Watchdog and reboot the cpu when it crash or when the current is to high... For some reason (maybe a logical reason, risk, or I don't know what) they choose not to use that very simple function... Sorry also if there was any words I wrote that harm you or make you feel bad. After all we are all Wheelers ?

[Kael]

With 1.07 still being problematic, has anyone spoken to KingSong to see if an update is in the works?