KingSong Wheels Never Cause Faceplants - right?

[Cannings]

3 minutes ago, kasenutty said:

 

I figure a Luffy should be fine, since I'm used to such slow wheels already

you sound the perfect candidate for a msuper x then, it does do slow speeds, on its way to FAST SPEEDS

[Marty Backe]

47 minutes ago, kasenutty said:

 

I figure a Luffy should be fine, since I'm used to such slow wheels already

See, now you know how to have fun sparring in a Forum 

[pst]

11 hours ago, Michael Vu said:

In that situation of going up a steep hill, I don't fault Kingsong or any other brand from cutting out like that. A blown fuse is still better than having to replace an entire circuit board

At the risk of getting back on the soapbox from my "safety" thread from several weeks ago, it seems to me that "cutting out like that" ought to be completely unacceptable, no matter the circumstances.  Engineers know how to monitor current draw, voltage sag, battery parameters, motor heat, etc.  Okay, a fuse blew, it's good that it didn't blow components or catch fire.  Fair enough, but fuses exist to protect the system when a FAULT occurs.  Riding up a hill is not a fault!  The system should be designed to handle this gracefully... either slow itself to a sustainable cruising speed, or failing that at least alert the user of an over-current condition and come to a safe halt to allow things to cool down.

I realize electric unicycles, personal electric vehicles, even vehicles in general, require the user to accept some risk, but it's not like this is some extreme sport for most people, it's just a personal vehicle.  Can you imagine the outcry if some genre of electric bicycles or electric cars randomly failed, flinging their occupants at the ground, just because there was a hill, or maybe a busy intersection where you needed to accelerate?  And the best answer to them is "well, at least it just blew a fuse!"

Even if today's EUC riders don't see any problem with this, I can almost guarantee that as these vehicles trend toward more mainstream popularity, such cases will result in draconian, fun-killing, top-down regulation, and/or strict legal prohibitions in the name of safety, and I would hate to see either of these things happen, so I hope the manufacturers voluntarily get their act together before it comes to that.

Anyway, rant mode off.   Would be interested to hear if I'm alone in this thought, though.  The response to the other thread was inconclusive to say the least.

[Marty Backe]

11 minutes ago, pst said:

At the risk of getting back on the soapbox from my "safety" thread from several weeks ago, it seems to me that "cutting out like that" ought to be completely unacceptable, no matter the circumstances.  Engineers know how to monitor current draw, voltage sag, battery parameters, motor heat, etc.  Okay, a fuse blew, it's good that it didn't blow components or catch fire.  Fair enough, but fuses exist to protect the system when a FAULT occurs.  Riding up a hill is not a fault!  The system should be designed to handle this gracefully... either slow itself to a sustainable cruising speed, or failing that at least alert the user of an over-current condition and come to a safe halt to allow things to cool down.

I realize electric unicycles, personal electric vehicles, even vehicles in general, require the user to accept some risk, but it's not like this is some extreme sport for most people, it's just a personal vehicle.  Can you imagine the outcry if some genre of electric bicycles or electric cars randomly failed, flinging their occupants at the ground, just because there was a hill, or maybe a busy intersection where you needed to accelerate?  And the best answer to them is "well, at least it just blew a fuse!"

Even if today's EUC riders don't see any problem with this, I can almost guarantee that as these vehicles trend toward more mainstream popularity, such cases will result in draconian, fun-killing, top-down regulation, and/or strict legal prohibitions in the name of safety, and I would hate to see either of these things happen, so I hope the manufacturers voluntarily get their act together before it comes to that.

Anyway, rant mode off.   Would be interested to hear if I'm alone in this thought, though.  The response to the other thread was inconclusive to say the least.

Unfortunately, I'm convinced at this point that EUCs will never approach becoming mainstream. They will forever be niche. Fortunately it's a big planet, so niche can still be a healthy market for the manufacturers.

[mezzanine]

10 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

I'm sorry if somehow this thread has bothered you. I'm certainly not asking you to be quiet.

To be honest, I'm not here to pamper newbs as you call them. My going-in position is to treat people like intelligent adults who can make up their own mind. I assume a base level of critical thinking. Everything that I see indicates that people spend an inordinate amount of time deciding what to buy. I did. Certainly they aren't going to pull the trigger based on a singular thread like this one.

Do you actually believe that people who scour this Forum won't see all of my negative commentary about Gotway wheels. I've said time and again that people who are averse to getting their hands dirty should avoid Gotway and buy the higher quality wheel (the two manufacturers that come to mind are KingSong and Inmotion). I'm pretty sure that 95% of the time when I recommend someone to buy a particular Gotway wheel, I add a caveat regarding quality and maintenance.

I'm just one guy with a passion for EUCs. There are plenty of other passionate guys out there and I don't think they are shy to express their opinions.

Peace 

 

"Passionate" is certainly one way to describe your relationship to this community.  

[Keith]

30 minutes ago, pst said:

either slow itself to a sustainable cruising speed......    

.......and come to a safe halt to allow things to cool down.

If I had a pound (or dollar) for every time this has been said..........

An EUC CANNOT SLOW ITSELF DOWN - that is fundamentally the problem with any self balancing vehicle. If you lean forward it HAS to either accelerate or faceplant you, they are the ONLY OPTIONS. The only way it can TRY to slow YOU down is tiltback or beeping. It is the failure to understand this that seems to be behind people’s surprise when things go wrong, if you understand this you know that suitable protective gear is a must.

I would be damn surprised if electric bikes do not also get sudden power failures or overheat on steep hills, the difference with any vehicle that isn’t self balancing is that you just coast to a halt.

[pst]

7 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Unfortunately, I'm convinced at this point that EUCs will never approach becoming mainstream. They will forever be niche. Fortunately it's a big planet, so niche can still be a healthy market for the manufacturers.

Maybe a more apt example would be pedal unicycles whose pedals occasionally fall off when you pedal too hard. Even if it's a niche, I'm not sure it means basic safety measures and due diligence shouldn't be in place.

I don't mean to make more out of it than it is... you guys each have more experience in your little finger than I have in my lifetime, so if it doesn't bother you it shouldn't bother me.  I just ask that you consider my perspective... during the day I listen to concerns about what happens when some component's pins may short together in 10 years because the solder was exposed to too much corrosive air in China, then I come home to read discussions about "let's compare the moderate injuries we got from failures that could've been prevented with a couple-cent shunt/resistor and slightly improved firmware."

[meepmeepmayer]

1 hour ago, pst said:

At the risk of getting back on the soapbox from my "safety" thread from several weeks ago, it seems to me that "cutting out like that" ought to be completely unacceptable, no matter the circumstances.

You're completely right. That we still can't rely on wheels to "work or warn" in ANY situation really is the opposite of what a Western-minded person would expect from such a product.

Unfortunately, FACT, that is not at all how the manufacturer build wheels. (They just screw parts together and see what works and what doesn't.)

One would think, a known fuse (= supposed to be the intentionally weakest part) that blows after 3s with 40A or 1s at 60A or whatever, it's obvious to write the software to consider that (= beeping/tiltback before the known failure numbers appear) so no cut-out can happen from this.

But that's not how they do it. There doesn't seem to be any noteworthy planning in this direction. They just overengineer former points of failure.

[meepmeepmayer]

55 minutes ago, Keith said:

The only way it can TRY to slow YOU down is tiltback or beeping.

The point was, it didn't do that. That can be excused for an oooooold KS16 from the early days of EUC development. But do we know that the current and upcoming wheels still don't have this problem? No, we don't. We just hope it beeps before it fries.

If I had too much money, I'd get all wheels and ride them up 100+% inclines and do extreme pendulums and see if they always beep before anything fails.

And the fact that's they're self-balancing, aka any failure = worst case catastrophe (like planes), just means you need to think differently about safety (like for planes vs automobiles). Fine, ebike motors may fail on mountains, that just means you can't build EUCs like that without better safety considerations.

Which don't exist, they should, even if it may be really hard to implement in reality, that was @pst's point. In principle, wheels don't need any speed, weight, incline limits, just warning beeps when the safe numbers are exceeded. The fact that the manufacturers give these limits just reflects how wheels are built - "don't do things we haven't confirmed are working". Essentially it's trial and error.

[pst]

58 minutes ago, Keith said:

An EUC CANNOT SLOW ITSELF DOWN - that is fundamentally the problem with any self balancing vehicle. If you lean forward it HAS to either accelerate or faceplant you, they are the ONLY OPTIONS. The only way it can TRY to slow YOU down is tiltback or beeping. 

"Slow itself"... "limit itself in speed"... whatever semantics you prefer.  Current-triggered tiltback rather than speed-triggered tiltback, essentially.  @meepmeepmayer got the gist of what I was trying to say... essentially "do all the stuff that's currently done, just do it sooner, a little smarter, and build in overhead rather than allowing the system to overstress itself and fail abruptly without adequate warning, resulting in (preventable) injuries.

14 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Unfortunately, FACT, that is not at all how the manufacturer build wheels. (They just screw parts together and see what works and what doesn't.)

Right, and if the market will bear $1000 for something designed with "screw together and see what works" engineering, then I'm not here to change anyone's mind.  It's just very different from what I'm used to, so I'm curious to probe people.

[Joe Holliday]

 

5 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

I love your logic: Tesla -> V10F -> KS16S   Hey, the KingSong is a great wheel, I'm sure that you'll love it 

Out of curiosity, what makes you like the V10F over the KS16S?  Those are the two I'm deciding between currently, and although the speed is a bit higher on the V10F, the KS16S seems to have higher range (on paper) and there's already an app that allows you to monitor your speed, temp and battery on a Pebble watch.  Do you know if there are any plans for a similar app for V10F (specifically watch based so I don't have to pull out my phone)?

Thanks!

[meepmeepmayer]

1 hour ago, pst said:

It's just very different from what I'm used to, so I'm curious to probe people.

This exact thing frustrated me greatly at the beginning here. I just want my damn 2500+Wh mountain wheel that I can force up any incline and worst case, it will beep at me to stop, but no sudden surprises in form of cut-outs.

But we're kind of approaching the right spot despite no safety-planning-by-design of this kind. The more they make the other components stronger (mosfets, cable thickness, better cooling, etc) due to incidents, the more it will be the batteries that end up being the weakest part. Then they just need to monitor those and that is it (and maybe a temperature sensor somewhere against overheating, but big enough electrical components would make even that unnecessary). The margins are even built in as batteries are chemical and their capability isn't an exact thing, so all you need to do is stay inside good battery parameters, have every other part be stronger, and then beep when the batteries are too stressed.

This and that EUCs are very simple machines (in terms of parts) will eventually lead to EUCs that "never" fail without warning. I certainly hope so.

[meepmeepmayer]

21 minutes ago, Joe Holliday said:

the KS16S seems to have higher range (on paper)

How so? The V10F has a bigger battery, so it's most likely going to have a bigger range than the 16S (at the same speeds, of course).

[kasenutty]

I don't think either have watch support in their app either. Basically, Joe's reasons are all wrong it seems. 

[meepmeepmayer]

Wheellog works with KingSongs and has Pebble watch support. Though the modded version (from the thread here) works with the V8, so maybe it will support the V10 models too.

[Joe Holliday]

22 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

How so? The V10F has a bigger battery, so it's most likely going to have a bigger range than the 16S (at the same speeds, of course).

The ewheels website advertises a 38-50 mile range for the KS-16S and a 30-40 mile range on the v10f.

[meepmeepmayer]

That's why you never trust manufacturer numbers (ewheels also has some errors in the various specs images/tables)

It makes sense that a bigger battery (960Wh vs 840Wh) takes you further. Maybe they used a higher speed (which reduces the range) for the V10F range? No idea how these numbers came to be.

[Joe Holliday]

6 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

That's why you never trust manufacturer numbers (ewheels also has some errors in the various specs images/tables)

It makes sense that a bigger battery (960Wh vs 840Wh) takes you further. Maybe they used a higher speed (which reduces the range) for the V10F range? No idea how these numbers came to be.

That makes sense.  I suppose I was figuring that power management in both units worked differently to the point one was more efficient than the other.  I do wish they went with a different handle of the V10F.  I have that same setup on my V5F+, and I'm not a fan of it.  The handle on the KS-16 appeals to me more.  Granted, my biggest issue with that handle on the V5F+ was that it covered the charging port and had to be lifted every time I charge it.  Not sure where the charging port is on the V10F.

[Rehab1]

5 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

See, now you know how to have fun sparring in a Forum 

So @Jrkline "Wheel Whisperer" faceplants at .21 as you film him going down and you remain filming at the same location throughout the entire video. 

 

[meepmeepmayer]

@Joe Holliday KS handles definitely seem to be the best. The two-in-one design (trolley handle + lifting handle) is already neat in itself, and it being wider should give you more leverage than the narrower V8 or Tesla handles... (For the record, I've tried none of these handles, so the hypotheticals.)

The V10 handle also seems to semi-block the back light.

Wheel choice is also a matter of looks/ergonomics/form factor/preference so if you instinctively rather want the 16S, nothing wrong with that (though it is lesser in all specs - power, max speed, pedal height). For example, I personally don't like the narrow stance on the Inmotion wheels, so I'd prefer the KS form factor (would take the V10F though due to motor power/speed/pedal height/offroad ability though).

[steve454]

34 minutes ago, Rehab1 said:

So @Jrkline "Wheel Whisperer" faceplants at .21 as you film him going down and you remain filming at the same location throughout the entire video. 

 

Maybe the fuse didn't blow the first time.  Take two 

[Joe Holliday]

1 hour ago, kasenutty said:

I don't think either have watch support in their app either. Basically, Joe's reasons are all wrong it seems. 

I don't understand what you mean. The ks16 that I demoed did because I used the WheelLog app on pebble watch when I tested it, which is one of the reasons I mentioned it. It's a lot more convenient and safe than pulling out your phone when your doing 18mph+ on a wheel.

[kasenutty]

My point was they all need an app to send to watch. I use a kingsong and iPhone and use darknessbot to send to watch because kingsongs app doesn’t display on watch. I don’t know if Inmotion directly displays on the watch but Kingsong doesn’t.

[Hunka Hunka Burning Love]

Aw man, is it too late to yell out "WHEEL FIGHT, WHEEL FIGHT!?"  

Darn work always gets in the way of comedic timing.  

Seriously though - I own a generic wheel, a Ninebot One E+, and now a Gotway Tesla.  I almost got a KS16S, but the Tesla's speed capability tempted me away even though I've seen lots of threads about Gotway problems.  After hearing about Gotway improvements I decided to take a chance.  I still read about Gotway issues, but King Song problems aren't exactly non-existent either.  These are imperfect devices for an imperfect world on which imperfect people ride upon.  There's nothing wrong with striving for that perfect wheel or having an opinion about what wheel is better than the other.  We're all different folks with unique interests and our own levels of tolerance.   

[Jerome]

EUCs will never be main-stream. Safety is not likely to go much further than it has with King Song, INmotion, and hopefully Ninebot. Every electronic device and anything built by man or robot will have some units fail. Gotway has taken the Bill Gates approach. It wants the revenue so it builds wheels as fast as possible with the range and performance "enthusiast" want and gets them out the door. People complained and complained about the various 1.0 releases of Windows, but few fled to OS. The OS operating system was always superior to Windows, like the fit-n-build and QA of King Song and INMotion is superior to Gotway.  Windows kept it's dominance because there was a mountain of software for it and it ran on many brands of computers. Gotway's are for those who love the the "Fast-n-Furious", who will continue to buy them until someone has wheels that perform as well range - speed wise. Can a safer EUC be built .. sure. Will it be built for a niche market of risk takers .. not likely.  A more fault tolerant EUC would have to be more costly,  require sophisticated engineering, and probably more bulky layout for the extra boards/components. Why would wheels makers go through the trouble, assuming they had the resources? How many people are going to go through the learning process to ride a wheel, certainly not 99.9% of the populous. Those green incline- last mile seekers, may look at minibots, e-kickscooters and most definitely e-bikes, but will quickly rule out EUCs.  Anyone who wants to use the EUC as a basic transport device should do so knowing the potential for face-planting is never going to go away.

King Song has made and overture to the F-N-F and may get a few to bite with the coming 18L, but the battery is still way behind Gotway. Still King Song is the way to go for those who like a  little pep in their step, but broken legs not so much. InMotion is in no man's land. it did'nt go far enough in the speed and range departments and priced itself out of most "serious" new entry level rider's budgets. They should see if they can get the V10 down to the $1000 - $1099 level to pickup serious entry level newcomers and those who are stepping up from the E+, S1, V8, etc. Gotway will have to do better than 15% failure rate or they will loose conscientious dealers like Jason, who will now have alternatives in the V10/F, KS18L, and Z line to sell to his performance oriented customers. Fun stuff. Marty who will be your next victim that you can lure up that hill?