KingSong Wheels Never Cause Faceplants - right?

[meepmeepmayer]

16 minutes ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said:

Aw man, is it too late to yell out "WHEEL FIGHT, WHEEL FIGHT!?"  

@Marty Backe + @eddiemoy = Gotway vs. KingSong, 3,2,1, FIGHT!

[meepmeepmayer]

21 minutes ago, Jerome said:

EUCs will never be main-stream.

I'd say the real reason for this is that self-balancing vehicle = inherently instable. 2 wheels one after another (e-bike, e-scooter) is just more fault-tolerant and reliable (both in hardware and rider behavior and with unseen surprise obstacles).

Too bad people will miss the fun. What's sitting on a bike or standing on a scooter vs. riding a wheel! Boooring.

[eddiemoy]

49 minutes ago, Jerome said:

EUCs will never be main-stream. Safety is not likely to go much further than it has with King Song, INmotion, and hopefully Ninebot. Every electronic device and anything built by man or robot will have some units fail. Gotway has taken the Bill Gates approach. It wants the revenue so it builds wheels as fast as possible with the range and performance "enthusiast" want and gets them out the door. People complained and complained about the various 1.0 releases of Windows, but few fled to OS. The OS operating system was always superior to Windows, like the fit-n-build and QA of King Song and INMotion is superior to Gotway.  Windows kept it's dominance because there was a mountain of software for it and it ran on many brands of computers. Gotway's are for those who love the the "Fast-n-Furious", who will continue to buy them until someone has wheels that perform as well range - speed wise. Can a safer EUC be built .. sure. Will it be built for a niche market of risk takers .. not likely.  A more fault tolerant EUC would have to be more costly,  require sophisticated engineering, and probably more bulky layout for the extra boards/components. Why would wheels makers go through the trouble, assuming they had the resources? How many people are going to go through the learning process to ride a wheel, certainly not 99.9% of the populous. Those green incline- last mile seekers, may look at minibots, e-kickscooters and most definitely e-bikes, but will quickly rule out EUCs.  Anyone who wants to use the EUC as a basic transport device should do so knowing the potential for face-planting is never going to go away.

King Song has made and overture to the F-N-F and may get a few to bite with the coming 18L, but the battery is still way behind Gotway. Still King Song is the way to go for those who like a  little pep in their step, but broken legs not so much. InMotion is in no man's land. it did'nt go far enough in the speed and range departments and priced itself out of most "serious" new entry level rider's budgets. They should see if they can get the V10 down to the $1000 - $1099 level to pickup serious entry level newcomers and those who are stepping up from the E+, S1, V8, etc. Gotway will have to do better than 15% failure rate or they will loose conscientious dealers like Jason, who will now have alternatives in the V10/F, KS18L, and Z line to sell to his performance oriented customers. Fun stuff. Marty who will be your next victim that you can lure up that hill? 

I heard IPS rumor that they are making an S5 with dual motor and more redundancy.  I'm sure someone can figure out the motor redundancy.  If you look at the eboards out there, the motors are tiny and they make 2-4kw of power.  

[Rehab1]

1 hour ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said:

Darn work always gets in the way with comedic timing.  

 

Your so right! All day long I wanted to comment. 

 

1 hour ago, steve454 said:

Maybe the fuse didn't blow the first time.  Take two 

Only kiddin @Marty Backe. 

[Marty Backe]

8 hours ago, Joe Holliday said:

 

Out of curiosity, what makes you like the V10F over the KS16S?  Those are the two I'm deciding between currently, and although the speed is a bit higher on the V10F, the KS16S seems to have higher range (on paper) and there's already an app that allows you to monitor your speed, temp and battery on a Pebble watch.  Do you know if there are any plans for a similar app for V10F (specifically watch based so I don't have to pull out my phone)?

Thanks!

I'm not sure if your question is to me, but the V10F should have more range the KS16S and it's certainly a faster wheel (much more powerful motor). And those high pedals are appealing.

The KS16S is so 2017 

[Marty Backe]

6 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

@Marty Backe + @eddiemoy = Gotway vs. KingSong, 3,2,1, FIGHT!

It's all in good fun, I think 

[hal2000]

On 15.04.2018 at 9:03 PM, Marty Backe said:

Just to add a little balance to all the Gotway bashing that goes on about faceplants, etc. @Jrkline "Wheel Whisperer" KS16B couldn't handle this hill, and blew it's fuse.

This video is for all those KingSong owners that like to comment about Gotway blown MOSFETs that can cause a faceplant. Yes, I agree that I'd rather replace a fuse then a control board, but in both cases your face hits the ground.

BTW, all the KingSing 'S' series of wheels still have fuses, so don't fool yourself into thinking that you are immune to faceplants. I'm looking at your @eddiemoy 

 

 

Are there any wheels without fuses?

 

 

[Chriull]

2 hours ago, hal2000 said:

 

Are there any wheels without fuses?

 

 

I just know from fuses in KS. Ninebot One E+ definitely had none. Maybe some old GW? The actual GW have none.

[Hansolo]

GW have fuses............ the mosfets  

[Tbx Nicolas]

GotWay fuse on ACMs+ ?

[pst]

On 4/16/2018 at 7:16 PM, Jerome said:

A more fault tolerant EUC would have to be more costly,  require sophisticated engineering, and probably more bulky layout for the extra boards/components.

"Fault tolerant" covers a wide range of options, including simply using existing sensors in a smarter way.  Adding a strip of metal to sense current draw (or using the one that probably already exists) isn't exactly "sophisticated engineering."

On 4/16/2018 at 7:16 PM, Jerome said:

Why would wheels makers go through the trouble, assuming they had the resources? 

As long as people keep buying the products, indeed, the only reasons would be things like market perception, reducing exposure to liability, or the satisfaction of addressing a common source of injuries experienced by their consumers, though I realize that's idealistic of me to expect.

[Keith]

On 4/19/2018 at 11:43 AM, pst said:

"Fault tolerant" covers a wide range of options, including simply using existing sensors in a smarter way.  Adding a strip of metal to sense current draw (or using the one that probably already exists) isn't exactly "sophisticated engineering."

Bearing in mind that there is a control board and processor governing current supply already, I.e. it ought to know the duty cycle it is commanding from FET’s of known characteristics so additional sensors ought not be necessary. However, redundancy, even in fault checking is no bad thing. The problem is: what do you do with this information when you have got it? You cannot “slow the wheel down”, “Limit the speed” or any other esoteric way of bringing the wheel to a halt safely (short of having an emergency parachute pop out and stop the rider!) because any such attempt will, in itself result in a faceplant.

The bottom line with self balancing vehicles is that both moving and speed are actually bi-products. The primary aim from a scientific point of view of a self balancing device is to balance!. The user, by leaning forward tries to unbalance it, the devices response is to generate an opposing torque to counter that imbalance. Purely as a bi-product of that torque the wheel accelerates and keeps accelerating all the time the user forces an imbalance. STOPPING ACCELERATION IS STOPPING BALANCING.

So we are back to having three mechanisms available to slow the rider if sensors identify something is wrong: Tiltback, audible warnings or vibration. 

Really the only way of making a self balancing vehicle safer is, as @Jerome said,  by over engineering. Excessively powerful, but output capped (but only by warning and tiltback) motors with well over spec wiring and electronics and, from a sensor/processor point of view, much better algorithms that equate the currently available excess torque (given speed, temperature, gradient, etc, ) to the rider’s weight. Of course it would increase cost and weight significantly - the latter being a real problem

Or, if you really want it to be safe it is easy - just put another wheel in front of it! Of course, given that MOSFET’s are prone to failing short circuit and given that shorting the coils of a BLDC motor turns it into a stonking great brake, even a two tandem wheeled electric vehicle cannot be guaranteed to not send its  rider flying. 

[Esash]

On 4/15/2018 at 3:03 PM, Marty Backe said:

Just to add a little balance to all the Gotway bashing that goes on about faceplants, etc. @Jrkline "Wheel Whisperer" KS16B couldn't handle this hill, and blew it's fuse.

This video is for all those KingSong owners that like to comment about Gotway blown MOSFETs that can cause a faceplant. Yes, I agree that I'd rather replace a fuse then a control board, but in both cases your face hits the ground.

BTW, all the KingSing 'S' series of wheels still have fuses, so don't fool yourself into thinking that you are immune to faceplants. I'm looking at your @eddiemoy 

 

What's his rider weight, he looks 6'1" 230 lbs, going up an endless hill on the 800 watt KS16 B.C.

Somebody of that weight pushing hard up those hills should stick to the KS A.D. wheels

 

[Marty Backe]

14 minutes ago, Scouts Honor said:

What's his rider weight, he looks 6'1" 230 lbs, going up an endless hill on the 800 watt KS16 B.C.

Somebody of that weight pushing hard up those hills should stick to the KS A.D. wheels

 

He tells us that he's about 205-pounds

[Boogieman]

1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

He tells us that he's about 205-pounds

At that speed, will you really fall like that normally on a EUC?

When my (² whhels admittedly) ninebot get stuck in a hole and stops i just jump off and run a few steps and then back on. But maybe that is because it does not happen sudden or because it does not really cut out (it often still stands afterward... Just stuck upright). I mean going a bit offroad You are "ready" in a different way cause you know you will have to jump off eventually when going flat out (in silly 16km/h if lucky when offroad) over rabbit holes and whatnot ?

[WARPed1701D]

4 minutes ago, Boogieman said:

At that speed, will you really fall like that normally on a EUC?

When my (² whhels admittedly) ninebot get stuck in a hole and stops i just jump off and run a few steps and then back on. But maybe that is because it does not happen sudden or because it does not really cut out (it often still stands afterward... Just stuck upright). I mean going a bit offroad You are "ready" in a different way cause you know you will have to jump off eventually when going flat out (in silly 16km/h if lucky when offroad) over rabbit holes and whatnot ?

As you say there is a difference. A cutout means the wheel no longer provides a platform for you to jump from. The motor has stopped and the only energy it has is stored kinetic energy. The pedals will also easily rotate back around the wheel now it isn't being driven forward. It's like floating on air and there is little your body can do to adjust your own speed and direction. If the wheel is stuck or overleaned then it is still providing a solid platform from which to make your escape, it just isn't capable of keeping up with the velocity of your body any more hence the loss of balance. You can use the pedals to make a leap or otherwise try to save yourself. Of course this also affords you microseconds of extra time to react.

[Boogieman]

On 5/2/2018 at 11:03 AM, Keith said:

Or, if you really want it to be safe it is easy - just put another wheel in front of it! Of course, given that MOSFET’s are prone to failing short circuit and given that shorting the coils of a BLDC motor turns it into a stonking great brake, even a two tandem wheeled electric vehicle cannot be guaranteed to not send its  rider flying. 

When a ninebot (2wheels alas not in front but beside of each other) something else happens. Often only one wheel cut out, meaning it turns super sharp (a lot sharper than you are able to do by knee control ? ) sending you flying a bit forward/sideway. Its rrally hard to balance sideway for the body so as you go off you normally fall silly on the side (no faceplant though ? ) but i think you could practice not to fall and try to run it out. I only got a cutout once on purpose, when testimg limits, but i will get protective gear before trying again. Even at 22km/h i managed to get a sore hip muscle and an asphalt cut in the ✋, so future falls I will overlosf harder and see if i can make both wheels cut together but with some paddding on hips knees elbows aso. I think its good to fall a few times when you are ready, so when it happens sudden you know"how to fall"...or run for it... run Forrest...ruuun ?

[US69]

11 minutes ago, Boogieman said:

At that speed, will you really fall like that normally on a EUC?

When my (² whhels admittedly) ninebot get stuck in a hole and stops i just jump off and run a few steps and then back on. But maybe that is because it does not happen sudden or because it does not really cut out (it often still stands afterward... Just stuck upright). I mean going a bit offroad You are "ready" in a different way cause you know you will have to jump off eventually when going flat out (in silly 16km/h if lucky when offroad) over rabbit holes and whatnot ?

I can only say that on a -really- unexspected cutout...out of the blue...you will definitly faceplant!

You will just smash on the ground and there  is no time at all to react.

I have had a faceplant at about 12-15kmh...even when exspecting it, because i know the wheel was faulty, but nonetheless smashed on the ground. Thats why we def. need reliable wheels, even more when they go that fast as todays wheels.

A unexspected cutout is in no way comparable to a "drive fault"...or hitting a bump...or getting wobbles...in all these screnarios you have a reaction time. On a cutout your wheel just smashes you in the ground.

Cost me till today 4...if not 5 broken rips...as both time i fell on my arm without any chance to liften it up

[Boogieman]

6 minutes ago, WARPed1701D said:

. You can use the pedals to make a leap or otherwise try to save yourself. Of course this also affords you microseconds of extra time to react.

You basically don't take a leap. You are kind of "sliding/falling" forward (kinetic energy direction), but before head goes south (grqvity overcomes kinetic) legs start running. Im thinking a cutout somehow maybe also rotates you downward? Strange though since nothing hold the feet, it should in theory just send you contours in the kinetic direction (forward) until gravity lowers you onto asphalt (some 100s of ms later?)

[Boogieman]

5 minutes ago, US69 said:

I can only say that on a -really- unexspected cutout...out of the blue...you will definitly faceplant!

You will just smash on the ground and there  is no time at all to react.

I have had a faceplant at about 12-15kmh...even when exspecting it, because i know the wheel was faulty, but nonetheless smashed on the ground. Thats why we def. need reliable wheels, even more when they go that fast as todays wheels.

A unexspected cutout is in no way comparable to a "drive fault"...or hitting a bump...or getting wobbles...in all these screnarios you have a reaction time. On a cutout your wheel just smashes you in the ground.

Cost me till today 4...if not 5 broken rips...as both time i fell on my arm without any chance to liften it up

I trust you...and all the face plant videos I have seen. I just wanna think through the physics before i do it....i dont have a euc YET, but im prepared to take a dive. But interesting to know what actually happens. Should set up a high speed cam filming from the side ? so one can watch afterward ? i have my ninebot cut out on video... But filming straight so does not give much info

[US69]

4 minutes ago, Boogieman said:

You basically don't take a leap. You are kind of "sliding/falling" forward (kinetic energy direction), but before head goes south (grqvity overcomes kinetic) legs start running. Im thinking a cutout somehow maybe also rotates you downward? Strange though since nothing hold the feet, it should in theory just send you contours in the kinetic direction (forward) until gravity lowers you onto asphalt (some 100s of ms later?)

Hopefully you dont experience a real cutpout out of nowhere....Yeah, the pedals dip that fast over that you have no chance to start running

[Scott Henley]

25 minutes ago, US69 said:

 Hopefully you dont experience a real cutpout out of nowhere....Yeah, the pedals dip that fast over that you have no chance to start running

Exactly! The wheel goes instantly limp, pedals drop forward...and so does your face. It all happens so fast (at high speed) that you really have no time to react. Try standing on a wheel that isn't turned on. Same feeling only at 20mph. It's not fun.  ☠️

 

[kasenutty]

It is exciting though

[Scott Henley]

1 minute ago, kasenutty said:

It is exciting though

That's one way to put it....certainly a rush (of blood flowing from your face)

[mezzanine]

30 minutes ago, kasenutty said:

It is exciting though

There are a few posters here who have admitted that they enjoy riding EUC's because of the fear of faceplanting.  It goes to show you that we all bring very different attitudes to the hobby.