Smaller wheels - will they ever make a comeback?

[Paul A]

Battery packs that look like this.

When extended range is needed.....just keep plugging more on  

 

[Funky]

33 minutes ago, techyiam said:

I think most of that has already been worked out in battery swappable scooters in Taiwan. I think it is doable. Once it has been worked out, it would be a constant we can rely on.

Also, since battery packs add significant costs to an euc, if riders  could buy wheels without battery packs, they could perhaps afford to buy more wheels.

Another benefit could be in a case where a family has an euc for each member. But some members may not ride that frequently. For those few times one need more range, perhaps he or she could borrow a couple of packs from those who would not be using their wheels.

 

Do you see a future - where every manufacturer have one battery pack model? I don't.

Even if they made one model where you can swap them. Do you see all new Inmotion models also having said hot-swap system. I don't (Especially that kind of pack where one pack fits "all".)

Sure it would be great. But it's all a dream. Also how long would it take... Till that function would be useful. 5-10 years till they make new models with hot-swaps.

 

Suspensions also have been made on many, many bikes. Yet kingsong fucked it on s22. So lets not go there... I already see so many horror stories.

Also if i need more than 1 wheel - i could simply buy it.. I simply don't need more than 1 wheel. (But that's me..) And i can bet people who buy wheel for transport needs.. They won't be  buying second, third and so on.

Edited November 18, 2022 by Funky
English - Hard...

[mrelwood]

 

1 hour ago, Funky said:

I personally wan't ~10km/h headroom.

 Dude, 10km/h is not enough! With a 10km/h headroom on the V11 you’d be riding at 68km/h! Luckily Inmotion did all these calculations for you already, and they even calculate the available headroom on the fly, and tilt you back if you’re pushing too hard. In standard mode the headroom is 28km/h. I guess that’s more than enough?

I just want to point out the issues of people talking about “headroom” without a fixed point to refer to. Unless you refer to the free spin speed, a simple 10km/h results in wildly different actual safety margins on different manufacturer’s wheels.
 

 Regarding swappable batteries, I feel quite iffy about the connection (mechanical and electrical) being fool proof and weather proof in practice. The fact that scooters have them, unfortunately doesn’t mean that the first EUC to have them would work out as well.

Also, like @Funky said, people already buy their wheels to their needs, and a larger battery capacity alone isn’t enough for speedsters for example. And I would personally never carry a large 8-10kg battery in the backpack to extend the range.

[Funky]

41 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

 

 Dude, 10km/h is not enough! With a 10km/h headroom on the V11 you’d be riding at 68km/h! Luckily Inmotion did all these calculations for you already, and they even calculate the available headroom on the fly, and tilt you back if you’re pushing too hard. In standard mode the headroom is 28km/h. I guess that’s more than enough?

I just want to point out the issues of people talking about “headroom” without a fixed point to refer to. Unless you refer to the free spin speed, a simple 10km/h results in wildly different actual safety margins on different manufacturer’s wheels.
 

I said "For that extra safety feeling." Even if you can ride 50 out of 50 speed. I like to ride close to ~40 out of those 50. (MY personal preference..) I don't feel comfortable riding 50/50.. Even "IF" i know device could do that. -Your mentioned headroom.

I don't push my wheel very hard. Most starts and stops are "slow" and over time. Not quick as possible go/stop.. And my safety margin has been lowest at 17%. By simply riding. No darting around like crazy. No superman leans. Or sitting stops. And i have never gone faster than 40km/h in those rides. (More or less after each ride i check EUC World.)

I have also noticed my amps have gotten pretty high. 1-3 secs at 36-38A. At most rides. So called spikes. (Don't really know how bad that is..) Maybe as more i ride. I have started to "over-burned" my wheel without myself noticing it.

[litewave]

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

Regarding swappable batteries, I feel quite iffy about the connection (mechanical and electrical) being fool proof and weather proof in practice. The fact that scooters have them, unfortunately doesn’t mean that the first EUC to have them would work out as well.

I routinely swapped battery packs on my NineBot One E+ for FOUR years many, many hundreds of times - sometimes 4-5 times on long rides (40-50 miles). Never had an issue. The XT-60 connectors work great.

[Paul A]

3 hours ago, Funky said:

Mten4 is perfect - But needs bigger tire and better axle. And also little bit more speed.

 

See the recent post by member conecones regarding Mten4 battery connectors are failing, leading to instant cutouts.

Also, a YouTube video was posted on October 31, 2022 regarding the same problem.

Has Begode/Gotway/Dealers been informing owners?

End users, finding and solving the problems of manufacturers for them.

Begode/Gotway quality, yet again...

 

conecones

• 
• Full Members
• • 218
• Location: Toronto, Canada
• EUC: RS19 HT, EX.N, 14D

Posted 27 minutes ago

*SAFETY PSA*

Not sure exactly how widespread this is, but the first batch of MTen4's have a fairly serious problem where the battery connector can disconnect during use, leading to instant cut-out. This has been discussed in the Facebook group, but I just want to send out a reminder here as well. The cause is potentially from too much tension on the cable, and not everyone's connector is prone to coming out. However, in our local group, we already had one cut-out and multiple owners reported the connector consistently coming loose.

Proposed solutions have been to use silicone or glue, but I have also designed a 3D printed cover that will solve this issue and has been tested to work. Please spread the word to new owners.
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:5600589

 

 

 

 

[Funky]

5 hours ago, Paul A said:

 

See the recent post by member conecones regarding Mten4 battery connectors are failing, leading to instant cutouts.

Also, a YouTube video was posted on October 31, 2022 regarding the same problem.

Has Begode/Gotway/Dealers been informing owners?

End users, finding and solving the problems of manufacturers for them.

Begode/Gotway quality, yet again...

 

conecones

• 
• Full Members
• • 218
• Location: Toronto, Canada
• EUC: RS19 HT, EX.N, 14D

 

Posted 27 minutes ago

*SAFETY PSA*

Not sure exactly how widespread this is, but the first batch of MTen4's have a fairly serious problem where the battery connector can disconnect during use, leading to instant cut-out. This has been discussed in the Facebook group, but I just want to send out a reminder here as well. The cause is potentially from too much tension on the cable, and not everyone's connector is prone to coming out. However, in our local group, we already had one cut-out and multiple owners reported the connector consistently coming loose.

Proposed solutions have been to use silicone or glue, but I have also designed a 3D printed cover that will solve this issue and has been tested to work. Please spread the word to new owners.
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:5600589

 

 

 

 

I wasn't talking about it's "fillings"... Just outside aspect - how it's small and compact, but same time pretty fast. (The inside is still trash.)

If Inmotion would build something similar, but with bigger tire/battery/motor - would be perfect. (Also stronger axle and "frame" that holds everything together.) Add water rating and it will sell. Only having water rating would sell EUC's like cupcakes. Because for people like myself. Who need to ride even if it's raining buckets, or earth and sky turning upside-down. - We still RIDE!

 

Have seen some videos about that problem.. People 3D print "braces" for the connector and such.

Edited November 19, 2022 by Funky

[MadVlad]

The main reasons behind a small suspension EUC are to be portable and affordable. Thats how you get the sales. If the weight is right, the price is right, and its convenient to trolley and carry, it will sell. If the tire is easy to change is a huge bonus.

[mrelwood]

34 minutes ago, MadVlad said:

The main reasons behind a small suspension EUC are to be portable and affordable.

The term “small” has gone through a storm lately though. ~14kg 14x2.125” wheels such as the 14D and V5F used to be small, but nowadays a 27kg 18x3” wheel such as the V11 is considered light and portable by many.

[Funky]

7 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

The term “small” has gone through a storm lately though. ~14kg 14x2.125” wheels such as the 14D and V5F used to be small, but nowadays a 27kg 18x3” wheel such as the V11 is considered light and portable by many.

Sad, but true. I personally don't want anything heavier than 25kg. Even i could carry it easily, but simply don't wanna.

Also if you can add more speed/range/power and make it lighter or even same weight. - It doesn't interest my otherwise.

[MadVlad]

17 hours ago, Funky said:

Sad, but true. I personally don't want anything heavier than 25kg. Even i could carry it easily, but simply don't wanna.

Also if you can add more speed/range/power and make it lighter or even same weight. - It doesn't interest my otherwise.

Exactly. I dont really want anything above 50lbs. People say "ooh thats not realistic" and I say a V8 is 30lbs, you telling me we cant add a basic suspension with 20 pounds to spare? I have an entire bicycle that weighs less than 10 pounds, Im pretty sure a 10-15 pound suspension made up of two small shocks or a few aluminum arms and a single shock can be done with weight to spare. It really comes down to the balance between battery capacity, top speed and weight. If the balance is right the wheel is going to sell big.

[Funky]

12 hours ago, MadVlad said:

Exactly. I dont really want anything above 50lbs. People say "ooh thats not realistic" and I say a V8 is 30lbs, you telling me we cant add a basic suspension with 20 pounds to spare? I have an entire bicycle that weighs less than 10 pounds, Im pretty sure a 10-15 pound suspension made up of two small shocks or a few aluminum arms and a single shock can be done with weight to spare. It really comes down to the balance between battery capacity, top speed and weight. If the balance is right the wheel is going to sell big.

Suspension adds 3-5KG (Well built one..) They simply don't wanna make smaller wheels. The time to make it, is the same as bigger ones. And sell for 2x cheaper.. Ofc it's better to build big wheel and sell for 2x $$$. It's no brainer.

But for countries where you don't ride with cars and don't need more than 40km range ever. Those big wheels are simply waste. Only option is choosing from "old" models. It's so sad that there have been no new wheels released past 3 years. (Yes to us it seems like that..) Remove all the new "big-boys" wheels and there haven't been released any new wheel.  Aside from Mten4.

[Drunkard]

On 10/12/2022 at 9:49 PM, meepmeepmayer said:

I'm starting to think that this is true for performance wheels.

-

In my opinion, smaller/lighter wheels are less important than decent starter wheels that are in the $1500/1500€ area, whether they are small/light or not. Not everyone can or wants to spend 2000 or 3000. But right now, all the new and nice and shiny and performant wheels are like 2500 and upwards, and the "cheaper" stuff is just old models that are no longer state of the art. It's either V11/V12/T4/S18 and upwards, or oooooold wheels. That's not good.

this is 100% true. It's the biggest issue right now for new casual riders. All the new wheels are all about the performance and pleasing seasoned riders. 

There should be a decent light suspension option for lighter casual riders. My girlfriend is like 50 kg and  she does not ride more than 20km at the time. Why would she need a huge wheel? Sadly best option on the market now is probably S18. I guess it's not a bad option considering she will not ride it hard. But why there are no price cuts on the wheel? It's no longer super new, it have half the battery of the S22.. (ok this is a solo example but surely there are more people who don't need a 70km/h wheel that goes 100km.)

 

I have been riding the V11 now and I have to say it is defiantly a nice comfy ride. I'm not a huge fan of the tall design. Would love if the smaller wheel from IM would be more of a V12 shape, have a suspension similar feel to v11, have around 1000wh battery and do not weigh more than 25kg. Top speed would be fine at 45km/h  considering IM safety margins are good and I trust riding them. Price around 1500. If this wheel existed together with a screen and good waterproofing than a lot more riders would join the fun.

Sadly now we have situation where manufactures do not update the mid range spec models because they like new price tags on new wheels having a good option that is not trying to please the extreme and is priced reasonably would cut in to the profits. Why release 1.5k wheel, if you can release 3.5k wheel.. New people will be forced to buy expensive wheel if there is no cheap option. Simple!

 

My ideal wheel: Sherman-S Mini. Same awesome suspension design. 18'', HT configuration. Up to 50km/h, enough battery for my 90kg ass to get 50-60 km range and not a cell more.. 30kg. 2k price. PLEASE VETERAN PLEASE 

[meepmeepmayer]

7 minutes ago, Drunkard said:

My ideal wheel: Sherman-S Mini. Same awesome suspension design. 18'', HT configuration. Up to 50km/h, enough battery for my 90kg ass to get 50-60 km range and not a cell more.. 30kg. 2k price. PLEASE VETERAN PLEASE 

I'm missing a 16 incher from Veteran. T4 competitor.

But this might fall under "Why not build a more expensive 18-20 incher?" instead.

[winterwheel]

Am I wrong to think that a 16" wheel would be minimum size for suspension in order to have room for suspension movement? Hard to imagine a V5 or a 14D with suspension. Even 16x2.125 wheels seem like they would be too small to be practical as suspension wheels to me.

[Mono]

2 minutes ago, winterwheel said:

Am I wrong to think that a 16" wheel would be minimum size for suspension in order to have room for suspension movement? Hard to imagine a V5 or a 14D with suspension. Even 16x2.125 wheels seem like they would be too small to be practical as suspension wheels to me.

I suspect you assume that the axle must stay above the pedals, but I don't know that this must be the case.

[Funky]

1 hour ago, Drunkard said:

My ideal wheel: Sherman-S Mini. Same awesome suspension design. 18'', HT configuration. Up to 50km/h, enough battery for my 90kg ass to get 50-60 km range and not a cell more.. 30kg. 2k price. PLEASE VETERAN PLEASE 

Taking into mind sherman price. It would be around 2500-3000. 2k way to cheap..  

1 hour ago, winterwheel said:

Am I wrong to think that a 16" wheel would be minimum size for suspension in order to have room for suspension movement? Hard to imagine a V5 or a 14D with suspension. Even 16x2.125 wheels seem like they would be too small to be practical as suspension wheels to me.

I think 16" should be minimum wheel size by default. The smaller the wheel - the worse ride quality, stability, and everything.. If you don't have smooth road ahead.

[techyiam]

1 hour ago, Mono said:

I suspect you assume that the axle must stay above the pedals, but I don't know that this must be the case.

You mean sprung-weight has to be high enough so there is enough ground clearance when the suspension bottoms?

[Mono]

4 hours ago, techyiam said:

You mean sprung-weight has to be high enough so there is enough ground clearance when the suspension bottoms?

yes, that's more or less the reason why pedals should be somewhat higher

[Drunkard]

17 hours ago, Mono said:

I suspect you assume that the axle must stay above the pedals, but I don't know that this must be the case.

Think it might be due to stability also. I don't have much experience with different wheels but I remember watching this eevee's video where Hsiang shared his view on pedals being above axel.

 

[Mono]

10 minutes ago, Drunkard said:

Think it might be due to stability also. I don't have much experience with different wheels but I remember watching this eevee's video where Hsiang shared his view on pedals being above axel.

This didn't make me any wiser though  I still can't see any principled limitation. How different it would ride we can't quite know without trying.

 

[Cerbera]

33 minutes ago, Drunkard said:

Think it might be due to stability also. I don't have much experience with different wheels but I remember watching this eevee's video where Hsiang shared his view on pedals being above axel.

Yes I can readily agree with that. Going from MS3 to Master was very much a surprise in just how much feeling of stability we lose with such higher pedals. It is getting a lot easier to manage after a couple of weeks at it though, and the feeling of riding high is quite nice for all the bits where it's not sketchy on the turns

[mrelwood]

23 hours ago, Drunkard said:

this is 100% true. It's the biggest issue right now for new casual riders. All the new wheels are all about the performance and pleasing seasoned riders.

Yes, exactly!

23 hours ago, Drunkard said:

Sadly best option on the market now is probably S18.

I agree. Unfortunately it requires a lot of work to make the suspension work in a way to be worth the purchase.

23 hours ago, Drunkard said:

But why there are no price cuts on the wheel?

KS might be the worst in this. Just look at the 18XL, still something like 2400€ in most shops, after a million years after being launched!

23 hours ago, Drunkard said:

Would love if the smaller wheel from IM would be more of a V12 shape, have a suspension similar feel to v11, have around 1000wh battery and do not weigh more than 25kg. Top speed would be fine at 45km/h  considering IM safety margins are good and I trust riding them. Price around 1500. If this wheel existed together with a screen and good waterproofing than a lot more riders would join the fun.

I agree, INSTANT hit!

23 hours ago, Drunkard said:

My ideal wheel: Sherman-S Mini. Same awesome suspension design. 18'', HT configuration. Up to 50km/h, enough battery for my 90kg ass to get 50-60 km range and not a cell more.. 30kg. 2k price. PLEASE VETERAN PLEASE 

Sign me up immediately!! Can I pay already??

[Paul A]

46 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

Just look at the 18XL, still something like 2400€ in most shops, after a million years after being launched!

 

KS has announced new upgraded/updated KS18XL.

The KS18XL is extremely reliable.

Has there been any/many major problems reported on it?

Seems like every other model has threads running into great lengths, detailing all sorts of issues.

 

 

[Mono]

22 minutes ago, Paul A said:

KS has announced new upgraded/updated KS18XL.

To stay on topic, KingSong forgot to inform us about the weight (as a measure of small-ishness)?