Smaller wheels - will they ever make a comeback?

[Mayhem]

Mod edit: Split off from this KS 10 year anniversary thread.

21 hours ago, Funky said:

And what's wrong with 84v? 16" needs to be small/light... More voltage - more batteries - more weight..

Something in 16s weight class would be awesome. If it's something like T4/V11/S18 another heavy turd - no thanks.

Your definition of light doesn’t exist and may never exist. I hope one day you find this dream wheel you have created for yourself but our current reality dictates that the market wants more power and suspension. 
 

S18 is the lightest suspension wheel with no range and significantly under powered. Plenty of people have cut out on the s18 and iirc Marty sold his because it wasn’t safe to ride. That wheel can face plant you just taking off and you claim it’s too heavy for you. 
 

Hate to break it to ya but It’s going to heavier than the s18. 

Edited October 11, 2022 by meepmeepmayer

[Funky]

1 hour ago, Mayhem said:

Your definition of light doesn’t exist and may never exist. I hope one day you find this dream wheel you have created for yourself but our current reality dictates that the market wants more power and suspension. 
 

S18 is the lightest suspension wheel with no range and significantly under powered. Plenty of people have cut out on the s18 and iirc Marty sold his because it wasn’t safe to ride. That wheel can face plant you just taking off and you claim it’s too heavy for you. 
 

Hate to break it to ya but It’s going to heavier than the s18. 

Some people don't need the range/power which all the "new" shit's offer... And my guess there are many people who don't talk on forums, about wheels and stuff like that. I and my dad daily use best 10km range. Or even less if we don't ride "around". Heck i have most done a day ~35km. And i can bet my left nut that there are many, many more like us who use these wheels as real last mileage devices.

I doubt most euc users are on "internet/online" talking about wheels. They simply bought it and use it as regular bike, simply riding around.

Wheel manufacturers simply don't know about us - because we are not talking about wheels.... And again i can bet my left nut, that if they made something awesome lightweight, waterproof, they would get alot more income vs "Online" - the people who talk about wheels, etc.. We don't even need suspension. As it's another failure point, where wheel can break.

And your market "idea" is of the people who are mostly "online" Forums/youtube, so on.. Heck even group rides.. People who like the hobby can have multiple wheels. Power/range have been covered for many years. Nothing in lightweight class - at least "new" past how many years..

 

As for weight. I can carry 30kg easily, i don't have problem with that. I especially bought my 18xl for it's 18" wheel, for more speed and for safety. But the range are useless for my. I can charge my wheel once/twice a week. Less batteries it would have been cheaper and so on. I simply paid for thing that i didn't need - range. < That's my problem.

Edited October 10, 2022 by Funky

[Mayhem]

34 minutes ago, Funky said:

Some people don't need the range/power which all the "new" shit's offer.

Agreed not everyone needs a Godzilla 4600wh wheel (which is way too much imo) but that’s what everyone cried for and they got it. (So good for those guys) Why did they get it because that’s what the majority of people want. Euc companies care about making MONEY. So them catering to the forum / clout book market is going to make them the most PROFIT. Not the minority which want what you’re looking for. 

34 minutes ago, Funky said:

Wheel manufacturers simply don't know about us - because we are not talking about wheels..

Agreed They don’t. The masses were holding fist full of money and yelling BIGGER WHEEL and the companies all served them their just desserts. 

 

34 minutes ago, Funky said:

People who like the hobby can have multiple wheels. Power/range have been covered for many years. Nothing in lightweight class - at least "new" past how many years..

 

Agreed people can have multiple wheels for multiple uses / occasions. But why do the entry level wheels get ignored? Because just about everyone wants to RUN before they can even CRAWL on an euc.

 How many people actually go through the proper progression of getting a small wheel and then upgrading a bigger wheel once they learn how to ride??? hardly any so why would the companies focus on smaller wheels when majority of people skip them.

That’s the biggest problem with the small wheel market. Many people want 1 wheel that does EVERYTHING. Range, speed, suspension, light weight, & a low low super low price. ( I call it the YouTube comment special. ) it doesn’t exist and it won’t exist. 
 

while the big time hobbyist/enthusiast does own multiple wheels the average euc owner does not. A lot of people can barely afford the one wheel they have and they NEED it to do everything.

 

34 minutes ago, Funky said:

that if they made something awesome lightweight, waterproof, they would get alot more income vs "Online" -

That’s debatable if would make a lot more income. Glad you feel that passionate about it. 

 

Edited October 10, 2022 by Mayhem

[Funky]

3 minutes ago, Mayhem said:

That’s debatable if would make a lot more income. Glad you feel that passionate about it. 
 

I'm personally happy with my 18xl. It has plenty speed/power (At least for my needs...) Same for my dad who uses 16s. (Doh he cries it's already to heavy.)  

I would have been more happy, if it was lighter, if these thing had some kind water rating. Because people who ride to jobs and need to be place are riding 2/3 of times in rain, 1/3 in very heavy rain. Sure we use covers over our wheels and what not. But it would be much better if these thing were actually built for real world use cases. Not just for hobby riding on sunny day. 

I get people who want speed.. But people who don't ride with cars - we don't need that. You won't be going 40kph+ on sidewalk.  We don't see ourselves upgrading to more powerful/heavy wheels anytime soon. Why would we? But if there was something "lighter" that does the same, or more over our wheels. Now you got our attention!!! Maybe even our money.

And i think there are many people who feel the same. People who buy one wheel and are set for many years. I for sure won't be getting any of these new wheels. They more or less are badly built, or have some kind issue.

[Mayhem]

1 hour ago, Funky said:

I'm personally happy with my 18xl. It has plenty speed/power (At least for my needs...)

We know you are, we hear about it all the time lol…. Cool that you and your dad ride. Family rides are a thing of beauty and I enjoy them very much as well. 

 

1 hour ago, Funky said:

I would have been more happy, if it was lighter, if these thing had some kind water rating. Because people who ride to jobs and need to be place are riding 2/3 of times in rain, 1/3 in very heavy rain. Sure we use covers over our wheels and what not. But it would be much better if these thing were actually built for real world use cases. Not just for hobby riding on sunny day.

Lighter doesn’t always mean better. Parts get thinner. Chinesium is already brital enough. Even thinner parts to shave weight will surely be an issue. 
 

I commute to work on my wheel as well more often then not, so I can appreciate the need for more weather resistant wheels. For the urban street riding we do here. Rain riding in traffic isn’t at the top of my personal list. So when it rains I park it. But I can surely appreciate people who don’t have to deal with big city living and can ride a side walk to get around. 

1 hour ago, Funky said:

And i think there are many people who feel the same. People who buy one wheel and are set for many years. I for sure won't be getting any of these new wheels. They more or less are badly built, or have some kind issue.

As for the new wheels only wheel that has peaked my interest is the ex30. But until the guinea pigs, I mean pre order riders are done beta testing it. I am in no need nor rush to purchase. 

Edited October 10, 2022 by Mayhem

[Funky]

13 minutes ago, Mayhem said:

We know you are we hear about it all the time lol…. Cool that you and your dad ride. Family rides are a thing of beauty and I enjoy them very much as well. 

 

Lighter doesn’t always mean better. Parts get thinner. Chinesium is already brital enough. Even thinner parts to shave weight will surely be an issue. 
 

I commute to work on my wheel as well more often then not, so I can appreciate the need for more weather resistant wheels. For the urban street riding we do here. Rain riding in traffic isn’t at the top of my personal list. So when it rains I park it. But I can surely appreciate people who don’t have to deal with big city living and can ride a side walk to get around. 

As for the new wheels only wheel that has leaked my interest is the ex30. But until the guinea pigs, I mean pre order riders are done beta testing it. I am in no need nor rush to purchase. 

Emm haven't really riden together.  We mostly use our wheels to get to places. Not for fun.. Sure time to time we go for a longer ride. Once/twice a month.

At least you got something that "interest" you. I haven't seen any interesting wheels past 3 years. Mten4 looked sweet. But gotway.. And way to small wheel. (If only it had 16" or 18" wheel..)

True about Chinesium - every new wheels is showing some. As i keep saying, maybe in 4-5 years i'll see something that i like. Maybe even solid state batteries by that time.  

 

Edited October 10, 2022 by Funky

[techyiam]

2 hours ago, Mayhem said:

But until the guinea pigs, I mean pre order riders are done beta testing it. I am in no need nor rush to purchase. 

Ain't this the truth.

[mrelwood]

2 hours ago, Mayhem said:

Agreed not everyone needs a Godzilla 4600wh wheel (which is way too much imo) but that’s what everyone cried for and they got it. (So good for those guys) Why did they get it because that’s what the majority of people want. Euc companies care about making MONEY. So them catering to the forum / clout book market is going to make them the most PROFIT. Not the minority which want what you’re looking for.

Your post was full of subjective opinions about the EUC customer base, which I'm sure your daily/weekly lifestyle supports. But you missed a crucial point from @Funky's post: Most EUC riders do not cry for different kinds of products. Most of them have never been at this forum. All of us here are enthusiasts, which is only a small section of riders worldwide. Even if every single forum member wanted a 80kg EUC, most riders still wouldn't.

The last I heard, the most sold EUC model ever was the V8. And this was still a year or two ago. How's that for them apples?

 

2 hours ago, Mayhem said:

The masses were holding fist full of money and yelling BIGGER WHEEL

That was actually just a small section of the most enthusiastic EUCers. Even most of us forum members don't want our wheels this big! The V13 thread has numerous commenters being disappointed at the weight, who won't buy it after all.

 

2 hours ago, Mayhem said:

But why do the entry level wheels get ignored? Because just about everyone wants to RUN before they can even CRAWL on an euc.

Again...

2 hours ago, Mayhem said:

 How many people actually go through the proper progression of getting a small wheel and then upgrading a bigger wheel once they learn how to ride??? hardly any so why would the companies focus on smaller wheels when majority of people skip them.

Absolutely none of the bold superlatives in any the above quotes have any basis or facts behind them, they are only what you think based on what kind of an EUC lifestyle and community you have built around you. But they are not correct. It's obvious that you don't ride or talk with casual or slower riders, so you really don't have a good idea on how the market segments actually look like.

Then there's location. In Europe, cycleways are a normal thing. Here in Finland it's most convenient by far to ride the EUC on cycleways, where 40km/h is already a speed you can rarely surpass (without being a jackass). I'm absolutely sure that the EU markets look very different to the US one. And Asians probably ride even slower.

The world is rather big you know.

[Mayhem]

9 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

The last I heard, the most sold EUC model ever was the V8. And this was still a year or two ago. How's that for them apples?

It’s also one of the oldest euc’s out. So Ofcourse something that has been out for years and years is going to be at the top. Mean while all the more trendy fast wheels have been on the market what maybe 2-3 years tops. 

 

11 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

That was actually just a small section of the most enthusiastic EUCers. Even most of us forum members don't want our wheels this big! The V13 thread has numerous commenters being disappointed at the weight, who won't buy it after all.

 V13 is a very niche wheel and correct due to the sheer weight alone many ruled it out completely. But another major factor was the cap at 55mph. The wheel was teased as “the fastest euc ever created.” While that is true by inmotion standards it simply wasn’t the case compared to the likes of the master. Which already was doing that speed. Once people saw the speed cap they forgot all about it and focused on the weight of a heavily speed capped wheel. 

 

16 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

But they are not correct. It's obvious that you don't ride or talk with casual or slower riders, so you really don't have a good idea on how the market segments actually look like.

Your euc way and life mine are completely different and how things are here is a fact. Same way how you see things over there is fact for you. 

As for “slow riders” depends what you consider a slow ride. You can’t ride an euc on the street in open traffic here slower than 30 mph or you’re a major hazard on the road. Slower then that now your talking riding in the park. 

24 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

Then there's location. In Europe, cycleways are a normal thing. Here in Finland it's most convenient by far to ride the EUC on cycleways, where 40km/h is already a speed you can rarely surpass (without being a jackass). I'm absolutely sure that the EU markets look very different to the US one. And Asians probably ride even slower.

The world is rather big you know

It’s all about location and bike lanes here aren’t safe to ride an euc on. Heck Even the actual cyclist don’t want to ride them due to the over crowded lanes , cars cutting you off or just plain zombies staring at their phones stepping off the curb. 

[techyiam]

Manufacturers don't intentionally produce wheels, and dealers carry wheels that will sell poorly. 

If we look at the best selling wheels at EEVEES, e-rides, and alienrides, predominantly, they are not light weight.

Sherman Max is the best seller at EEVEES, and e-rides. 

Master is the best selling wheel at alienrides. 

Leaper Kim only produces heavy wheels.

Kingsong has been producing progressively heavier wheels in the last couple of years. So have Inmotion. Only Begode has been made more of an effort.

Why would manufacturers build wheels that won't maximize their profits. 

If 30 lbs wheels will sell in the millions, there will be lots of choices, no doubt.

 

Edited October 11, 2022 by techyiam

[Funky]

@mrelwood Thanks.

Dam he's one of those guys.. The "speed demons".  I don't ride faster than 26mph ever... Mostly 20-22mph. Simply because i'm riding on sidewalks. In my country we don't have bike path, bike lanes. Non such "fancy" things. And i have never seen an euc riding on street with cars here. Because we don't have to.. We got sidewalks. And on them sidewalks we don't need "super/duper" fast wheels.

Heck if laws are made, we will be riding 15mph here.. I'm 100% sure on that. Same as scooters. (Doh i will ignore it..)

Edited October 10, 2022 by Funky

[mrelwood]

15 minutes ago, Mayhem said:

Your euc way and life mine are completely different and how things are here is a fact. Same way how you see things over there is fact for you. 

And neither of them represent the actual average. That was my point. If you would've added the word "here" in each of your claims, there wouldn't have been anything for me to point out.

6 minutes ago, techyiam said:

If we look at the best selling wheels at EEVEES, e-rides, and alienrides, predominantly, they are not light weight.

All US/Canadian sellers btw... I don't think they are a good indicator of the global sales volumes.

[Funky]

11 minutes ago, techyiam said:

If 30 lbs wheels will sell in the millions, there will be lots of choices, no doubt.

 

Mten4 is the only one in that range. (Newer wheel..) And i can bet it will sell...... Simply because it's so small/fast/cheap/light. That's how most euc should look! Real last mileage wheel.<3 Daily riding for ~5km on smooth pavement - perfect.

I don't count v8 and such wheels anymore - too old. But still good.

Edited October 10, 2022 by Funky

[techyiam]

7 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

All US/Canadian sellers btw... I don't think they are a good indicator of the global sales volumes.

I was referring to Afeez Kay's e-ride in the UK.

[Funky]

Heck i love sherman max - i think it's one of the best built wheel out there right now without suspensions. If i didn't care about weight and would ride with cars - no doubt i would have bought it!

Doh on sidewalks it's simply would be wasted. We don't even have "crazy" traffic here.. We simply don't ride with cars here. Because we got sidewalks everywhere. Right next to streets. Heck our cities are even small. My city is 6,82 km² size.. No need for speed. Our main big city is 307,2 km² size. Pretty small.  

Most ridders i have seen has those "small/slow" wheels.. My 18xl is even to fast... If we look at statistics.   

Edited October 11, 2022 by Funky

[Tawpie]

7 hours ago, Mayhem said:

S18 is the lightest suspension wheel with no range and significantly under powered. Plenty of people have cut out on the s18 and iirc Marty sold his because it wasn’t safe to ride.

S18 is not a wheel for heavier riders, perhaps not a wheel for typically sized riders. But for light to mid weight riders... it's not under powered, gets 40 miles on a charge and hasn't cut out on me. I know, I only ride blue trails and I don't go faster than 25 mph but I'd warrant that there are more riders like me than there are like wattssingletrack. The point I'm making is that there are buyers that actually have no need for biggest or fastest or longest range and as @Funky keeps begging: please, address this market too.

IMO MTen4 is a reskin of MTen3 to justify the outrageous price point. My MTen3 is a toy... at 600USD it was at the top of what I pay for occasional use toys but now the least expensive new wheel is 1200USD and that gets you a blue MTen3 with better lights and a knobby. Cute as a bug, but still for amusement only.

Weird thing is, I now own my toy, my general purpose wheel and my trail wheel and they all fill their roles pretty well. The only thing I want improved is more range from my trail wheel… and of the fancy new wheels only 1 is a potential purchase and its launch has been about as sad as a launch can be. I guess if I really think about it, I'm not in the market for another. 

[Mayhem]

10 hours ago, mrelwood said:

And neither of them represent the actual average. That was my point. If you would've added the word "here" in each of your claims, there wouldn't have been anything for me to point out.

And I never said that they were nor did a site a reference other than myself. As I am obviously speaking from my personal experience and the information I take in daily. 
 

10 hours ago, mrelwood said:

All US/Canadian sellers btw... I don't think they are a good indicator of the global sales volumes.

those dealers may not speak for global sales but one cannot ignore that first high speed suspension wheel in the s20 was the highest preorder sales wheel ever. 
 

It’s no coincidence that every single manufacturer jumped on board and announced an even faster & bigger wheel after the s20 showed what the market had been waiting for. 
 

Whether people from different sides of the world agree bigger wheels being more popular or not.  It’s where the money is right now.
 

Just look at preorder sales of s20 Vs T4. Both are recent wheels, both advertised & sold to same group of riders globally. While the t4 is popular and I fully expect it sell more over its lifespan then the s20 (obvious s20 issues). The current demand of the s20 is far superior than that of the t4. 

Edited October 11, 2022 by Mayhem

[Mayhem]

7 hours ago, Tawpie said:

S18 is not a wheel for heavier riders, perhaps not a wheel for typically sized riders. But for light to mid weight riders... it's not under powered, gets 40 miles on a charge and hasn't cut out on me. I know, I only ride blue trails and I don't go faster than 25 mph but I'd warrant that there are more riders like me than there are like wattssingletrack. The point I'm making is that there are buyers that actually have no need for biggest or fastest or longest range and as @Funky keeps begging: please, address this market too.

BiB; but if you have a wheel that isn’t for the typical rider then all you have is a child’s toy or a very expensive paper weight. The s18 isn’t advertised as neither. 
 

same as your experience on the s18 there are people who love it and it suits their personal needs. But that’s more of a niche wheel and as a niche wheel it’s not gonna sell more units then a wheel that can suit the typical rider. Which is the issue with why the smaller lighter wheels keep getting ignored like I said in my reply to funky. 

[Mayhem]

10 hours ago, Funky said:

@mrelwood Thanks.

Dam he's one of those guys.. The "speed demons".  I don't ride faster than 26mph ever... Mostly 20-22mph. Simply because i'm riding on sidewalks. In my country we don't have bike path, bike lanes. Non such "fancy" things. And i have never seen an euc riding on street with cars here. Because we don't have to.. We got sidewalks. And on them sidewalks we don't need "super/duper" fast wheels.

Heck if laws are made, we will be riding 15mph here.. I'm 100% sure on that. Same as scooters. (Doh i will ignore it..)

Speed demon ehhhh debatable lol. More that my environment calls for it where as yours does not. 
 

super/duper fast wheels on the side walk are gonna get you banned 

[mrelwood]

17 minutes ago, Mayhem said:

And I never said that they were lol. I am obviously speaking from my personal experience and the information I take in daily via the web & other riders.

You literally did. You only referred to "everyone", "majority of people" etc. You didn't once mention that you only meant the people in your personal circle. They are not "everyone" or "majority of people".

 

17 minutes ago, Mayhem said:

It’s no coincidence that every single manufacturer jumped on board and announced an even faster & bigger wheel after the s20 showed what the market had been waiting for.

Begode seems to make an idea to an actual ridable wheel in a matter of weeks, while the others take a few years. When the S20 was announced, Inmotion had been working on the V13 for a long time already. So they didn't "jump aboard". Begode seems to do that though, and they are trying to flood the market with 5-6 different models that can be seen as S22 competitors (large and heavy suspension wheels with at least a relatively large battery).

17 minutes ago, Mayhem said:

Whether people from different sides of the world agree bigger wheels being more popular or not.  It’s where the money is right now.

A single $4K wheel brings in more profits than four $1K wheels do. So yes, that's where the money is. Same goes for a Rolex vs a cheap sport watch; the other one brings in profits, the other brings sales volumes. They are the traditional opposing market strategies.

17 minutes ago, Mayhem said:

Just look at preorder sales of s20 Vs T4.

Well, the S20/S22 preorders were alive for well over a year with active advertisement campaigns, while the only advertisements for the very short T4 preorder phase were a spec sheet and a rendered image. I don't think there are any basis for comparing the preorder volumes.

17 minutes ago, Mayhem said:

While the t4 is popular and I fully expect it sell more over its lifespan then the s20 (obvious s20 issues).

Me too. But I don't think S22 issues are the only reason.

17 minutes ago, Mayhem said:

The current demand of the s20 is far superior than that of the t4. 

Anything Begode makes has a large stigma attached to it for valid reasons, and/so they cater for different types of customers than KS/IM. Who are both expected to launch a 16" suspension wheel in '23 btw, so I'm sure we can do much better market segment comparisons in a year.

 

29 minutes ago, Mayhem said:

super/duper fast wheels on the side walk are gonna get you banned 

Even large EUCs are still small compared to most other vehicles, so my guess is that they'd only get us banned if you actually rode fast on a sidewalk. Choose a proper speed for each situation and we seem to be just fine.

[Funky]

Both side have valid points. If you like riding with cars, ofc you want speed/power.. And with speed/power comes weight and bigger price points.

It's just that market has all those "big" wheels already. Like i have been saying. Speed/Power/Range. Have been covered already... For many years.

There needs to be new wheels in lightweight class. Ks16s, v8, tesla 3. Wheels under 55lbs. When was the last time we saw something small/light (Except Mten4, because 11" wheel.) 2018?2019? I don't know..

@Mayhem no offence, but you live in one part of the world. It doesn't mean that everyone in the world wants/needs - range/speed/power. In my daily life i would have been happy with 22mph wheel. Doh i knew i would be riding close to its limits - which ofc is bad/dangerous. I mainly went with 18xl, because of my weight and for safety reasons.

Great wheel as you know...  But i would gladly have removed 1 battery pack for weight, smaller size. That one pack would have made my wheel 500-600$ cheaper...

Weaker/older/females/non muscular - People who live in apartment buildings, like 3rd, 4rth, 5th floor. Or who need to carry the wheel a lot. They want light as possible. I'm damn sure about that. I doubt they would like to carry 100 lbs wheel 2-4 times a day... Would you???? Put yourself into my shoes and needs. I can say that 100% you would not need those big wheels also then..

 

I have nothing against big/heavy wheels.. They are cool. But same time you need something light.

And if you want to tell - why didn't you get 18L... Price difference was 250$ vs 18XL. And they didn't have 18L in stock.

Edited October 11, 2022 by Funky

[techyiam]

41 minutes ago, Funky said:

I have nothing against big/heavy wheels.. They are cool. But same time you need something light.

Like @mrelwood said, the smaller wheels are coming. If they turn out to be more profitable, you can bet that there will more coming after that.

[meepmeepmayer]

In his latest video, Marty surprised me by saying he does no longer care much for 16 inch wheels (referring to the T4). Maybe 18-20 inch (meaning 14 inch rim) will be the new standard size, giving people all the perceived oomph the smaller wheels maybe don't offer?

Edited October 11, 2022 by meepmeepmayer

[winterwheel]

I ride a road wheel (EX) to work, speed and size are great for that part of my day. I keep a sidewalk wheel (14D) at the office 24x7 for riding around downtown to get coffee, lunch etc. Great for riding among pedestrians, frequent stops and starts etc.

[techyiam]

2 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

In his latest video, Marty surprised me by saying he does no longer care much for 16 inch wheels (referring to the T4). Maybe 18-20 inch (meaning 14 inch rim) will be the new standard size, giving people all the perceived oomph the smaller wheels maybe don't offer?

Marty has moved away from 16" wheels for a while now. He has said that in his older videos.

 

Edited October 11, 2022 by techyiam