Smaller wheels - will they ever make a comeback?

[meepmeepmayer]

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

Marty has moved away from 16" wheels for a while now. He has said that in his older videos.

I wondered if that's just him or might be indicative of the general market.

[Funky]

3 hours ago, techyiam said:

Like @mrelwood said, the smaller wheels are coming. If they turn out to be more profitable, you can bet that there will more coming after that.

65+ lbs are no "small" wheels. I can only hope the "new" 16" wheels will be under 55 lbs. But sadly we already know that S16 will have suspension - more weight. And i highly doubt it will be under 55 lbs..

It more or less will be the same as T4 +-performance/weight. T4 would have been perfect wheel, if it had better water protection. And was ~10lbs lighter.

So at the end there is no "smaller" wheels coming.. I already said T4 vs Master the weight difference is so small.. 79 lbs vs 67lbs they both are already HEAVY.

Meaning they both are in heavy wheel class. No difference adding 10 lbs more... (In my book anything over 65lbs are heavy class wheel. 45-65lbs medium wheels. And anything under 45 are LIGHT.)

Edited October 11, 2022 by Funky

[Funky]

12 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

I wondered if that's just him or might be indicative of the general market.

I personally also like 18"+ They simply roll better over all road imperfections. But sadly all 18" wheels have big battery packs and overall have more weight. 18xl is one of the lightest 18" wheels. RS would have been amazing 18" wheel at ~60lbs, but sadly it's water resistance are very bad. And begode...

Edited October 11, 2022 by Funky

[techyiam]

6 minutes ago, Funky said:

So at the end there is no "smaller" wheels coming..

Not necessarily. Inmotion may also build a learner's wheel. In one survey they conducted, they were asking about a low cost beginner's wheel. So who knows, maybe enough people asked for it.

[techyiam]

37 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

I wondered if that's just him or might be indicative of the general market.

Well, Begode did just come out with the T4. The V12's, 16X's, and the Nicola+ seemed to be selling well still. Moreover, new 16" wheels are supposedly be coming from Kingsong and Inmotion in 2023. 

Edited October 11, 2022 by techyiam

[Rich Sam]

In my area we had small wheel kickback where riders brought all their small wheels to try and demo.  I brought my mten4, other folks brought mten3's the 84 and 64 volt versions.  V5's, v10's.  was a blast!   I love the mten4 and 3, but I never knew the V5 and V10 was sooooo comfy to ride.  Sometimes I don't feel like lugging my RS or Sherman around, smaller wheels to the rescue!

 

[Funky]

Same as motorcycles and mopeds. More or less we are getting motorcycles, almost no mopeds. I like my mopeds.  

Edited October 11, 2022 by Funky

[meepmeepmayer]

11 minutes ago, Funky said:

Same as motorcycles and mopeds. More or less we are getting motorcycles, almost no mopeds. I like my mopeds.  

Offtopic: I think this is more a consequence of bad regulation and putting these things in different classes with vastly different legal treatments. With electric two-wheelers, it's clear that you can have the full spectrum (top speed, weight, ...) from pedal assist bike to heavy electric motorcycle without any sharp artificial limits between them. Mix and match whatever you want and need. The same could have been for combustion engine two-wheelers. They just kneecapped them so everyone has to buy a car.

[rcgldr]

23 hours ago, Mayhem said:

 

S18 is the lightest suspension wheel with no range and significantly under powered. Plenty of people have cut out on the s18 and iirc Marty sold his because it wasn’t safe to ride. That wheel can face plant you just taking off and you claim it’s too heavy for you. 

What about S18 with Molicel P42A battery pack? I weight 85 kg (187 lb), would that be too much for an Molicel S18? I currently have a V8F, mostly ride at GPS 12 to 15 mph (18 mph max), and ride conservatively (moderate acceleration), keeping max current under 25 amps, usually under 20 amps. Comparing, V8F 1000w (2000 to 2200 w peak?) nominal motor, 30 amp fuse, S18 2200 w nominal (? w peak) motor 60 amp (3 x 20) fuses. 

Edited October 11, 2022 by rcgldr

[Mayhem]

8 hours ago, Funky said:

 

@Mayhem no offence, but you live in one part of the world. It doesn't mean that everyone in the world wants/needs - range/speed/power. In my daily life i would have been happy with 22mph wheel. Doh i knew i would be riding close to its limits - which ofc is bad/dangerous. I mainly went with 18xl, because of my weight and for safety reasons.

 None taken, and I know that and have stated that myself in my response to you when I said “Not everyone needs a Godzilla wheel” 

Ofcourse everyone’s wheel needs are different. Just like when someone makes a post and says something like hey guys I’m new to euc what do you recommend? Without any other information to go by you can easily lead that person in the wrong direction. 
 

Edited October 11, 2022 by Mayhem

[Mayhem]

8 hours ago, mrelwood said:

You literally did. You only referred to "everyone", "majority of people" etc. You didn't once mention that you only meant the people in your personal circle. They are not "everyone" or "majority of people".

 

My personal circle ? Negative. I said everyone when I was clearly referring to the cry babies and I said the majority of people when I was referring to people who want to run before they can crawl on euc skipping the smaller wheels all together. 
 

Neither of these have anything to do with where I live or personal circle. Cry babies are over the web. Anyone now a days can spin in a circle, throw a rock and hit a key board warrior cry baby. 
 

As for the majority of people who skip small wheels and get something they can use for all purposes, that’s a very common practice. As people want to buy a wheel one time learn on it and keep it for its life span or until something else peaks their interest. 
 

8 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Begode seems to make an idea to an actual ridable wheel in a matter of weeks, while the others take a few years. When the S20 was announced, Inmotion had been working on the V13 for a long time already. So they didn't "jump aboard". Begode seems to do that though, and they are trying to flood the market with 5-6 different models that can be seen as S22 competitors (large and heavy suspension wheels with at least a relatively large battery).

I would really love to sit in, on a begode meeting after a competitor releases a wheel. That’s gotta be some comedy. 

Correct the v13 was all ready on going and if the s20 didn’t drop first the v13 would have set the trend inmotion . So we would have still ended up where we are now. 

8 hours ago, mrelwood said:

while the only advertisements for the very short T4 preorder phase were a spec sheet and a rendered image.

Kingsong promoted the heck out of that thing and opened orders up early. That was a smart business move on their part. Not too long ago we wouldn’t even get the render and spec sheet. It would be a fb post or a content creater leaking a render. There would be no lead up to the wheel release it just be a company going “hey we make this, you like?” 
 

 

8 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Choose a proper speed for each situation and we seem to be just fine.

👍🏾, And the proper gear 

Edited October 11, 2022 by Mayhem

[Tawpie]

1 hour ago, rcgldr said:

What about S18 with Molicel P42A battery pack? I weight 85 kg (187 lb), would that be too much for an Molicel S18? I currently have a V8F, mostly ride at GPS 12 to 15 mph (18 mph max), and ride conservatively (moderate acceleration), keeping max current under 25 amps, usually under 20 amps. Comparing, V8F 1000w (2000 to 2200 w peak?) nominal motor, 30 amp fuse, S18 2200 w nominal (? w peak) motor 60 amp (3 x 20) fuses. 

Folks at your weight have been happy S18 riders using the not-molicel batteries provided they understand and respect the limitations of a 3P battery configuration. Molicels should help because their voltage won't sag as much under heavy load.

As always: it says 50 kph but that's unwise.

[Mayhem]

1 hour ago, rcgldr said:

What about S18 with Molicel P42A battery pack? I weight 85 kg (187 lb), would that be too much for an Molicel S18? I currently have a V8F, mostly ride at GPS 12 to 15 mph (18 mph max), and ride conservatively (moderate acceleration), keeping max current under 25 amps, usually under 20 amps. Comparing, V8F 1000w (2000 to 2200 w peak?) nominal motor, 30 amp fuse, S18 2200 w nominal (? w peak) motor 60 amp (3 x 20) fuses. 

I do know someone who swapped the batteries in his s18 to molicel and they prefer it over the standard batteries. He said there is a very noticeable difference. 
 

As for is this the right wheel for you? Only you can answer that for yourself after doing your own research and seeing if this suits your personal needs. There is a s18 thread on this forum you can check out and get more specific answers from members who own or have owned the s18.
 

If I was in your shoes I personally would buy the T4 over the s18. Simply because it has better suspension, more power and more range.
 

What ever you decide to get for yourself take the time to learn the new machine. Don’t just full send it because you can already ride. Good luck 

 

Edited October 11, 2022 by Mayhem

[Begodecrashtestdummy]

I’ve had my rs19 highspeed since may and have put 3200 miles on it already 🤣.I ride from 100% to 30% and then charge ..head back out and ride to 30% and charge again..I’m sick of charging and until we get solid state batteries with 10 minute charge times ….I can’t wait to get the master pro and be able to ride anywhere and everywhere for hopefully 100 miles 🙌I’ll keep the rs highspeed tho for trail riding it’s a really fun wheel even tho it’s tough on the knees .ideally I would like the master pro and t4 🤔

Edited October 11, 2022 by Dosingpsychedelics

[Unventor]

I just skimmed the many posts above. 

@Funky I do agree that new models released had carried headlines with more power and more speed and more range and due to that more weight and often higher costs too.

There are a few exceptions like Inmotion V8f. 

The biggest Challanger to keep weight down is battery and motor will be a huge part no matter how an EUC is build right now. If you add suspension option that adds more weight. 

I mostly ride a V11. But last week I had a puncture after handing my car off for service. The puncture happened at about 30 kmh. But due to my mc suit I managed to only do the trolley of shame home the last 1km. 

So today I used my V10f to pick up the car. There are a few things I really like about it. The weight vs the V11. It is handy and more compact. But I prefer the wider tire and suspension and that little extra power. But... I do not need it all the time. Like today to pick up the car 5km from me. 

Inmotion did put a survey out earlier this year to gage sales opertunity for a lighter wheel, around 25kg ish. 

To me it sounded like a mix of V10f and V12 with optional suspension. 

It is not speed freak wheel. But I think that could sell reality well especially in the EU. 

Now for a company to make a wheel/euc there are two major triggers

1) sales potential 

2) brand capability show off aka flagship

What you ask @Funky is the first option which I do this is not a high voice here from active forum users. But there is a big numbers of passive readers here too.

And I do to agree with @mrelwood that the potential is somewhat hidden and due to that I think Inmotion asking by survey is not a bad thing.

Now V8 has sold quite well. But it will properly not keep it up. And V8f might be a slight upgrade, but it is the price point and how usable the EUC is, and due to that I would say the V10f is a better option but somewhat overlooked. 

But as KS16X with suspension would do really well for me at 25kg and a 40kmh top speed with a 40% hidden safety margins. And of course easy service. 

A long post but well, loads of tiime to read until we might see a new mid range wheel in the EUC news. 

[Funky]

I'm not really in hurry for a "new" wheel. It's just would be great, by the time when i will need a new wheel, there will be options to choose from.  

If i look at the market right now, none of the wheels out there catches my eye. Literally every one of them is kinda.. Meh..

I can only hope that in next 3-5 years there will be something decent made. At that time i will start to look for a new wheel. (I'm a guy who buys and uses their property till it dies, can't be repaired. And i gave my wheel 3-5 years usage time, before i'll get something new.)

Maybe by that time wheels will have water rating, solid state batteries, real smart BMS, more speed/power at 25%-30% lighter weight. One can dream... 

[winterwheel]

Heavyish guy here, I commute on my S-18 daily when it isn't rented out, favorite commuting wheel. Not a long distance to ride, bike lanes most of the the way, no need to get over 40kmh on it for those rides. A recent average-weight renter of that wheel reported getting 70kms out of it riding normally, way more than I would get at my weight.

All that said I'm considering a molicel version because range isn't important and I wouldn't mind working the wheel a little harder from time to time. For me the ultimate wheel would be the S-18 with a bit more oomph and molicel might provide that.

---

V12 is the most popular wheel in our community over the last few months, 16" wheel.

---

No one here was crying for the speed of V13 etc. We were surprised and amazed when the specs came out. But we have a number of speed demons here and if the wheel claims to do a speed then someone here is going to put that to the test.

---

S20/S22 was more popular here that T4 because it had a head start. We're all waiting now to see what the T4 delivers when the first one shows up here in a few days. If it proves to be decent that could be the most popular wheel here next year.

---

At least seven people here are ordering MTen4s.

---

So there is a ton of interest here at least in intermediate and small wheels. Our view is that the new top-end wheels explosion is really just a d***-swinging contest between the various manufacturers.

 

[techyiam]

4 hours ago, winterwheel said:

So there is a ton of interest here at least in intermediate and small wheels. Our view is that the new top-end wheels explosion is really just a d***-swinging contest between the various manufacturers.

It could very be that the 20", 80-ish lbs. wheel is the current sweet spot for heavy wheels. After all, the Sherman and Sherman-S sold well. Time will tell soon enough.

I would speculate that the newly release of the 22" heavy cruisers from Begode and Inmotion is the latest attempt by them to discover the next sweet spot in order to outsell the Sherman/Sherman Max. 

I personally am interested in testing out the 22" wheels for riding in car traffic. So, I am thankful that they are becoming more available. 

Edited October 12, 2022 by techyiam

[meepmeepmayer]

7 minutes ago, techyiam said:

It could very be that the 20", 80-ish lbs. wheel is the current sweet spot.

I'm starting to think that this is true for performance wheels.

-

In my opinion, smaller/lighter wheels are less important than decent starter wheels that are in the $1500/1500€ area, whether they are small/light or not. Not everyone can or wants to spend 2000 or 3000. But right now, all the new and nice and shiny and performant wheels are like 2500 and upwards, and the "cheaper" stuff is just old models that are no longer state of the art. It's either V11/V12/T4/S18 and upwards, or oooooold wheels. That's not good.

Edited October 12, 2022 by meepmeepmayer

[techyiam]

19 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

I'm starting to think that this is true for performance wheels.

I think with the release of the Master, it made it so.

[Funky]

29 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

In my opinion, smaller/lighter wheels are less important than decent starter wheels that are in the $1500/1500€ area, whether they are small/light or not. Not everyone can or wants to spend 2000 or 3000. But right now, all the new and nice and shiny and performant wheels are like 2500 and upwards, and the "cheaper" stuff is just old models that are no longer state of the art. It's either V11/V12/T4/S18 and upwards, or oooooold wheels. That's not good.

As someone who likes "light" i got only options from 2018/2019 year... Like i have said, in my eyes there have been no "new" wheels past 3 years..  

For some those are "starter" are ideal wheel. Some people don't want to go faster than regular bicycle.

 

I guess i'm one of those weirdos.. Because i don't even want suspension. (Mostly because of my weight and another failure point - that will break at some day..) I will take wheel built like a tank, over comfort. I could care less how it looks and how it "rides", if it goes from A to B i'm happy.

Good old postman bike - if you know what i mean. "Workhorse" of a wheel.

Edited October 12, 2022 by Funky

[MrEUCMan]

it's not the size that matters, it's how you ride it.

[PLEASE_DELETE]

Deleted.

Edited March 17 by PLEASE_DELETE

[That Guy]

Another issue with the current EUC market is how difficult it is for a person who has never tried to ride to get into the hobby. I remember ("back in my days") I purchased an EUC in 2016 as a toy for my 16yo son. It cost me something like $400 on Alibaba. It had 20kph max speed, 15km max range and weighed 9kg. But it did the trick - my two sons and I learnt the skill back then. A couple of my friends recently got curious about getting into EUC's and what's called "Googled it". Not surprisingly, what they could see first were Masters, Monsters, Shermans and no lower end variety whatsoever... :-)

[winterwheel]

I've found that people are willing to spend $35-50 for a lesson for those of us who want to boot strap more wheelers into their community and make a little money doing it.