Smaller wheels - will they ever make a comeback?

[Funky]

22 minutes ago, Paul A said:

 

KS has announced new upgraded/updated KS18XL.

The KS18XL is extremely reliable.

Has there been any/many major problems reported on it?

Seems like every other model has threads running into great lengths, detailing all sorts of issues.

 

 

Emm... Only cosmetics? Nothing changed inside?

What temp sensor? It already has some.

[Paul A]

Weight of current KS18XL is 25kg, very light.

[Funky]

56 minutes ago, Paul A said:

Weight of current KS18XL is 25kg, very light.

Sorry sir. But you are totally wrong! More correct answer would be 24.5kg (I hate when people "fat" shame my wheel. And make it more heavy - than it is!)

And mine KS18XL weights 25.7kg. (Pedals/tire/padding.) 1.2kg extra.

"Very light" is shrouded term. In nowadays weights it is light. But ~2 years ago it was heavy.

 

I still look at it like this:

10-20kg is light.

Spoiler

(The real last mileage wheel.) 

20-30kg middle class.

Spoiler

("Cough" The best class which most riders enjoy. "Cough") Would love to have this wheel, with "light class" battery. 

30-50kg heavy turd class.

Spoiler

(Boo.. They stink..) 

 

Edited November 22, 2022 by Funky

[MadVlad]

On 11/21/2022 at 4:44 AM, Funky said:

Suspension adds 3-5KG (Well built one..) They simply don't wanna make smaller wheels. The time to make it, is the same as bigger ones. And sell for 2x cheaper.. Ofc it's better to build big wheel and sell for 2x $$$. It's no brainer.

But for countries where you don't ride with cars and don't need more than 40km range ever. Those big wheels are simply waste. Only option is choosing from "old" models. It's so sad that there have been no new wheels released past 3 years. (Yes to us it seems like that..) Remove all the new "big-boys" wheels and there haven't been released any new wheel.  Aside from Mten4.

I think you are right about the cause. But I also think the companies are wrong in their reasoning. Sure, they might make less profit per wheel, but if more people join into the sport you will make more profits in the long run on volume of sales, repeat customers buying newer/bigger wheels, and the people that would otherwise not be able to afford a big wheel may buy a cheaper one. Its one of those times where I think projections based on past data may result in the wrong outcome because the data is incomplete and does not take into account everything that can affect the projection.

[LowFlyingSquirrel]

I would like to see solid options at 300€, 600€ and 900€. But I don't think we'll see heavy competition until someone cracks the legality egg in major markets.

The V12 has set the standard for me, with it's display and customization. My nice to have's' in a wheel would be:

• Low weight options, 12kg, 16kg, 20kg.
• GPS and eSim with option to choose provider and GPS tracking backend.
• NFC for lock/unlock and quick access to multiple profiles to be used in countries where the speed must be limited at a checkpoint.
• Without suspension is fine as it is often a hassle when badly implemented and barely any improvement with a large weight penalty.
• Tubeless self healing tyres.
• Partnered with tyre company to create tyre with incredible grip & very long life.
• Inbuilt charger.
• Split dual motor and dual boards for complete redundancy.

Dream list:

• 30,000 km before something needs servicing.

[Mono]

8 minutes ago, LowFlyingSquirrel said:

But I don't think we'll see heavy competition until someone cracks the legality egg in major markets.

Small-ish EUCs are legal to use in public space for at least around 100 million people in Europe (and illegal for at least around the same number).

16 minutes ago, LowFlyingSquirrel said:

• Low weight options, 12kg, 16kg, 20kg.

+1 

10 minutes ago, LowFlyingSquirrel said:

• Tubeless self healing tyres.
• Partnered with tyre company to create tyre with incredible grip & very long life.

If these don't exist for bicycles or motorcycles, why would you think they will be created for EUCs first?

12 minutes ago, LowFlyingSquirrel said:

• Split dual motor and dual boards for complete redundancy.

This doesn't sound technically feasible at all to me.

[LowFlyingSquirrel]

4 minutes ago, Mono said:

Small-ish EUCs are legal to use in public space for at least around 100 million people in Europe (and illegal for at least around the same number).

23 minutes ago, LowFlyingSquirrel said:

Can you please explain further? Afaik, EU limit is 6 km/h and it doesn't matter the size, it could be a tractor.

Edited November 23, 2022 by LowFlyingSquirrel

[LowFlyingSquirrel]

35 minutes ago, Mono said:

This doesn't sound technically feasible at all to me.

Geiger Engineering have already created a duplex motor, board and battery system for aircraft applications. It's not my expertise, so I cannot debate how a product suitable for EUC's could/couldn't be developed. Though any insight is welcome.

Edited November 23, 2022 by LowFlyingSquirrel

[Mono]

21 hours ago, LowFlyingSquirrel said:

Can you please explain further? Afaik, EU limit is 6 km/h and it doesn't matter the size, it could be a tractor.

Sure, in Belgium, Czech Republic, France, Poland (which makes >100 million people), EUCs are legal with a speed limit of 25km/h, like the assistance limit in those e-bikes which go by bicycle law, and with 20km/h in Denmark, Finland, Norway, just out of my head. Of course, there are more specifics in the respective laws than just the speed limit, but AFAIK nothing outrageous or any deal breakers for manufacturers or for regular users who are reasonably happy with the speed limit.

My observations in the more and more bicycle friendly Paris is that EUCs account for 1-2% of all bicycle+PLEV traffic, that is like one EUC in 70 bicycles/PLEVs in Paris.

Legality spreadsheet:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xgCTmNf7e2NzRWzMMsX19YQW9pGEMtPJM3KXfz19DZg/edit#gid=0

Related topics/threads:

Edited November 24, 2022 by Mono

[Mono]

BTW, what does your location "AED" mean, @LowFlyingSquirrel?

[winterwheel]

I might have mentioned this before but worth repeating even so... I keep a 14D at the office and the favorite parts of my day are when I use it to nip out and about downtown to get coffee, grab lunch or whatnot. And this is me at 240lbs, no gear or whatever, just grab the wheel and go. It's an awesome sidewalk wheel for riding amongst pedestrians. I can see a future where there would be many more people using wheels this way.

[Paul A]

37 minutes ago, winterwheel said:

I can see a future where there would be many more people using wheels this way.

 

Though, it might have the unintended consequence of people suffering health problems, when even the exercise of walking is severely reduced.

[techyiam]

13 minutes ago, Paul A said:

 

Though, it might have the unintended consequence of people suffering health problems, when even the exercise of walking is severely reduced.

I highly doubt electric wheels will enter the mainstream. My family doesn't say very much (they gave up 🙂), but on the other hand, many strangers keep telling me now dangerous they are.

I see more e-scooters on the road this year, not so for electric wheels. It's about the same, very few.

Edited November 23, 2022 by techyiam

[Mono]

9 minutes ago, Paul A said:

Though, it might have the unintended consequence of people suffering health problems, when even the exercise of walking is severely reduced.

Riding an EUC at 5km/h is for most people more exercise than walking. For the others, I'd be surprised if they wouldn't get too more exercise by riding than most other people get by walking.

[LowFlyingSquirrel]

Walking burns around 60 wh/km, riding at bike <16 km/h uses 21 wh/km and >30 km/h uses 45 wh/km. Base Metoblic Rate is around 80 wh/h. Walking burn's a lot more calories than you'd expect. Walking is the most expensive way to travel lol because food costs 20x electricity.

 

Source 1, Source 2, Source 3, Source 4

[Mono]

1 hour ago, LowFlyingSquirrel said:

Walking is the most expensive way to travel lol because food costs 20x electricity.

Unless you ride an EUC at walking speed 

[KiwiMark]

While everyone is dreaming about what 'should be':

I think that the V12HT that I have on the way is a good size with good specs (performance, range, etc) but it sure would be nice if it gave up nothing and was a few kg lighter.  If the batteries could be changed to solid state with a longer life and no safety concerns with just as much capacity & current handling ability - while weighing less . . . yeah, I'd love that!

Maybe in a few years this will be possible?

[winterwheel]

5 hours ago, Paul A said:

 

Though, it might have the unintended consequence of people suffering health problems, when even the exercise of walking is severely reduced.

Not at all. Were it not for the wheel I would just stay in the office. It's far more exercise that doing that.

[KiwiMark]

7 hours ago, Paul A said:

 

Though, it might have the unintended consequence of people suffering health problems, when even the exercise of walking is severely reduced.

Do a lot of people walk where you live?

I walk to work because it only takes 6 minutes, but not one of my workmates walks or rides, every other person at work drives a car.  At a previous workplace another worker told me that he lived less than a km from work (as close as I am now to my current workplace) - that worker drove a car to work every day.  Honestly I think that less than 1% of New Zealanders walk to work.  The vast majority of workers commute by car, this causes pollution, global warming, congestion, etc.  I don't know how we will break the average person's love affair with the personal car, but a few deciding to ride EUCs to work would be a positive (even if very small) step.

[Funky]

3 minutes ago, KiwiMark said:

Do a lot of people walk where you live?

I walk to work because it only takes 6 minutes, but not one of my workmates walks or rides, every other person at work drives a car.  At a previous workplace another worker told me that he lived less than a km from work (as close as I am now to my current workplace) - that worker drove a car to work every day.  Honestly I think that less than 1% of New Zealanders walk to work.  The vast majority of workers commute by car, this causes pollution, global warming, congestion, etc.  I don't know how we will break the average person's love affair with the personal car, but a few deciding to ride EUCs to work would be a positive (even if very small) step.

Can't wait when teleportations will be made.

[Tawpie]

17 minutes ago, Funky said:

Can't wait when teleportations will be made.

with our luck it'll require affordable solid state lithium batteries.

[mrelwood]

34 minutes ago, Funky said:

Can't wait when teleportations will be made.

Will it teleport my recliner as well, or do I have to stand?

[Funky]

8 hours ago, Tawpie said:

with our luck it'll require affordable solid state lithium batteries.

 Don't forget also about first user problems. The dangers of getting stuck between walls. Or getting merged together.. 

7 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Will it teleport my recliner as well, or do I have to stand?

I hope you like your new "body".  - You are the recliner. And recliner has gotten intellect. But sadly because he originally was recliner, he has a very hard kink for getting sitted on.

God forbid you had dentures in mouth. They may be in your ass now. Or worse.

[Cerbera]

The only trouble with teleportation is that the only sort of 'carving' that you can do doesn't end up well at all

[tst]

On 10/11/2022 at 1:21 PM, Funky said:

Both side have valid points. If you like riding with cars, ofc you want speed/power.. And with speed/power comes weight and bigger price points.

It's just that market has all those "big" wheels already. Like i have been saying. Speed/Power/Range. Have been covered already... For many years.

There needs to be new wheels in lightweight class. Ks16s, v8, tesla 3. Wheels under 55lbs. When was the last time we saw something small/light (Except Mten4, because 11" wheel.) 2018?2019? I don't know..

@Mayhem no offence, but you live in one part of the world. It doesn't mean that everyone in the world wants/needs - range/speed/power. In my daily life i would have been happy with 22mph wheel. Doh i knew i would be riding close to its limits - which ofc is bad/dangerous. I mainly went with 18xl, because of my weight and for safety reasons.

Great wheel as you know...  But i would gladly have removed 1 battery pack for weight, smaller size. That one pack would have made my wheel 500-600$ cheaper...

Weaker/older/females/non muscular - People who live in apartment buildings, like 3rd, 4rth, 5th floor. Or who need to carry the wheel a lot. They want light as possible. I'm damn sure about that. I doubt they would like to carry 100 lbs wheel 2-4 times a day... Would you???? Put yourself into my shoes and needs. I can say that 100% you would not need those big wheels also then..

 

I have nothing against big/heavy wheels.. They are cool. But same time you need something light.

And if you want to tell - why didn't you get 18L... Price difference was 250$ vs 18XL. And they didn't have 18L in stock.

How much people are there who live in appartments on the 5th floor with no elevator AND who have the money to spend on a product like a EUC?

What would a new small wheel bring? Only maybe suspension. But that is still relatively new.

There aren't much high power suspension wheels for sale secondhand.

But V8, Ninebot One, V5f, KS etc there is enough for sale in the used market. So there's less demand for these things new than for models like the V11 etc.

I think the wait is for tech breakthrough. New tech could give small wheels a rebirth. Or new loose regulations in a interesting market like Germany.