Smaller wheels - will they ever make a comeback?

[MadVlad]

I can throw in my 2 cents. One important thing to note is that for many countries a 3-4k dollar wheel is ridiculously expensive. But those people can save up for a 1200 dollar wheel. Inmotion V8s sell big outside of US. The other thing to note is in carrying the wheel, loading it up into a car etc. Now Im 6ft over 200 lbs, I can lift 60-80 pounds, but even for me its not a pleasant experience loading that into a car or taking it up stairs. I started out on a Tesla V2 just to learn riding, then I began using the wheel as a "last mile commute" wheel, I park my car and ride the wheel the rest of the way. For that purpose I bought a V8S because it is those 10 pounds lighter and its slim, making it easy to load/carry. I do want a suspension wheel, but if its over 50 pounds it simply wont work for what Im doing with it. The battery can stay around 800-1000 to save weight. The body can be aluminum. I dont need the thing to go 40mph or be the quickest thing around. I need it to be slick, easy to carry up stairs, easy to lay on its side in a car, with a nice trolley handle.

[alcatraz]

A Tesla V2 with a 3in tire mod would be pretty damn good. 19kg 1020Ah and comfort.

How about an MCM5 with 3in. That's easier to mod I hear and it's near indestructible. Unfortunately already 17kg with only 800Ah but it could be good enough.

An MSX with 23kg is not bad considering comfort/weight ratio. The larger wheel will out edge the 16X (comfortwise) I suppose.

[winterwheel]

I'm waiting for my MTen4 to arrive to so I can see how well that cute little wheel can carry 240lbs in snow and extreme cold. If that works... game on. 

[Mono]

On 10/11/2022 at 1:49 AM, Funky said:

I don't count v8 and such wheels anymore - too old. But still good.

The V8S came out in July 2021.

Starting out by where we are, who can provide some data confirming that small wheels are not anymore the top sellers (and hence need to make a comeback)?

These are the sales data I could find:

• various links to sales numbers
• sales numbers by Ecodrift Russia in 2019 by model
• models ranked by sales number by Ecodrift Russia in 2021 (rank change in brackets)

All these data suggest that small models (V5, V8, KS16S, KS14M) dominated the market by sold units last year and before. Only both KingSong 18" models and the V11 are additionally in the mix of best selling models.

As a side note: InMotion seems to sell more wheels than Begode and KingSong together, meanwhile the InMotion subforum has 28k posts while Begode and KingSong have 46k posts each.

Edited November 10, 2022 by Mono

[Funky]

2 minutes ago, Mono said:

The V8S came out in July 2021.

Starting out by where we are, who can provide some data confirming that small wheels are not anymore the top sellers (and hence need to make a comeback)?

These are the sales data I could find:

• various links to sales numbers
• sales numbers by Ecodrift Russia in 2019 by model
• models ranked by sales number by Ecodrift Russia in 2021 (rank change in brackets)

All these data suggest that small models (V5, V8, KS16S, KS14M) dominated the market by sold units last year and before. Only both KingSong 18" models are additionally in the mix of best selling models.

As a side note: InMotion seems to sell more wheels than Begode and KingSong together, meanwhile the InMotion subforum has 28k posts while Begode and KingSong have 46k posts each.

I was talking about the first model. From V8. V8S is the most "updated" one if i'm not wrong. But in all manner of speaking it is the same V8..

Ofc the smaller wheels sell the most. They are small and cheap. Most people get something smaller as their first wheel. Or if they ride to train/bus/job they don't need heavy/big wheel. Going 20-30km/h speeds those small wheels are awesome.

I'm just saying we need "NEW" wheels in that market.. Updated wheels and so on. New look, new design. Better quality - more steel, less plastic. Water ratings and such.

I would love to have something lighter than my 18xl. And same time "better". (Better as in better built and maybe little faster. Even if i don't need the speed.. It's great to have more safety margin.)

Any wheel ever released - can be made better! Can be renewed and updated. Or built from ground up completely new model. - Which there haven't been made in "lightweight" in how many years. (Aside from Mten4.)

[Mono]

I am also disappointed to see year after year no new wheels in the market for the use case I am interested in (implying to weigh less than 20kg). Yet, maybe updating a good wheel every year over several years is a (much) better approach than constructing a new wheel every 9 months. In this sense, maybe the big wheels are behind and need to "catch up". It seems that the industry produces more well maintained (comparatively) reliable light wheels than any other wheels.

Speaking specifics, the V8F looks almost identical to the V8, but it has a shell that fits a slightly wider tire, larger pedals, better padding, more powerful motor, stronger front light (still ridiculously weak), 9% larger battery. The overall update was not at all spectacular but reasonably significant from a user's perspective (specifically, mine). Reliability of the footplates has however been downgraded (they can break now) and it weighs 1-2kg more.

I'd like to see the V8S (17kg) updated to a wheel that may look identical (I don't care) but fits a 2.5" tire. That's even all I'd need to stay happy for another year or two (I also wouldn't mind an update to what I consider should be minimum industry standard: a decent front and back light, an unbreakable axle, unbreakable foot plates, a USB-C port, a second charge port). I'd also pay 500 bucks extra to shave off 3kg of weight. Without a geared motor, this may already be close to the limit of technical feasibility given uncompromised durability.

I suspect that if we want much lighter powerful wheels, we have to go back to geared motors. I am pretty sure a silent and (very) reliable reared motor is technically feasible for an additional 500 bucks (probably less, maybe much less). I have no idea whether it exists off the shelf with the specs to fit our application though and I can't imagine that it will have the Gotway glide which I miss.

Edited November 24, 2022 by Mono

[rcgldr]

3 hours ago, Mono said:

I'd like to see the V8S ... axle

I've read somewhere that models made after June 2022 have somewhat stronger axles.

3 hours ago, Mono said:

geared motors

Gears would be another component that could fail. More windings per pole can increase torque but reduce speed. Stronger magnets can increase torque, without a speed penalty.

3 hours ago, Mono said:

upper pads

Wrong Way mentioned there's more width between the upper pads on a V8S to handle the larger 21700 batteries, but I've read that a 21700 pack will fit in a later batch V8F, but I don't know if that means V8F and V8S are using the same shell, but with different trim colors.

3 hours ago, Mono said:

2.5 inch wide tire

A V8S with a 2.5 inch wide tire would be nice.

Edited November 10, 2022 by rcgldr

[EternalEnigma]

43 minutes ago, rcgldr said:

I've read somewhere that models made after June 2020 have somewhat stronger axles.

June 2022, but yes. Includes the V8F as well.

[rcgldr]

17 hours ago, EternalEnigma said:

June 2022, but yes. Includes the V8F as well.

Typo on my part, fixed now. 

 

Edited November 10, 2022 by rcgldr

[Mono]

On 11/9/2022 at 11:45 PM, rcgldr said:

Gears would be another component that could fail. More windings per pole can increase torque but reduce speed. Stronger magnets can increase torque, without a speed penalty.

Fortunately it's single gear, so only one gear can fail. Well, counting components to assess failure probability makes little sense anyways. AFAIK, there are physical limitations to weight reduction that can only be overcome by a faster spinning motor. That is, at some point the only choices are either a transmission or a heavier wheel. IMHO, because it requires some additional expertise from manufacturers, it's not too likely to happen within the next three years, but more likely to happen than not within 12 years if the EUC market continues to keep growing.

On 11/10/2022 at 12:30 AM, EternalEnigma said:

June 2022, but yes. Includes the V8F as well.

Nice, any chance to find a picture or specification source for this? EDIT: found this threat on reddit with the comment Just got a replacement wheel for my V8F and I noticed it uses a 16.8mm splined axle instead of the old 14mm axle with flats. Looking at one of my V8 broken axles, this should entirely remove the weak spot of the original construction that was reducing the hollow axle wall thickness right at the point of the highest stress on the axle from about 2x5mm to 2x1mm (yes, 1mm!) at the narrowest diameter spot and 2x3mm at the widest, probably only to be compatible with a bicycle-type holding. The new axle looks much stronger at the spot where the old was broken. Looks like the perfect solution (for a self-inflicted problem). Nice!

Edited November 11, 2022 by Mono

[mrelwood]

 

On 11/9/2022 at 7:38 AM, alcatraz said:

An MSX with 23kg is not bad considering comfort/weight ratio. The larger wheel will out edge the 16X (comfortwise) I suppose.

All else being equal, definitely. But in the case of the MSX, it’s a rather uncomfortable wheel, while the 16X has no glaring comfort issues. I had to modify my MSX for the dihedral pedal angle, pedal plates, sidepads, and the upper shell corners for it to be rideable for longer than just a few km. Still, there was nothing I could do about the ride modes, pedal dip while cornering, and the trolley handle position. All of these are ok on the 16X.

 

17 hours ago, Mono said:

As a side note: InMotion seems to sell more wheels than Begode and KingSong together, meanwhile the InMotion subforum has 28k posts while Begode and KingSong have 46k posts each.

Back at the 16X vs MSX comparison, there are the above 7 issues that would draw MSX owners to the forum to discuss the issues and find solutions, while there is only one on the 16X (lack of power at top speed)…   (Ok, two, the horrible amount of manic beeps when you connect your phone. )

I’m actually not even kidding, having an issue with one’s wheel seems to be the most common reason for people to join the forum altogether.

[Mono]

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

I’m actually not even kidding, having an issue with one’s wheel seems to be the most common reason for people to join the forum altogether.

Of course, I don't see why it would not. It's probably not a sufficient reason to keep on posting.

Edited November 10, 2022 by Mono

[mrelwood]

9 minutes ago, Mono said:

It's probably not a sufficient reason to keep on posting.

Unless the issue remains. 

[Cecily Inmotion]

Really thank you guys for taking the time to join our last questionaire.  We have already made simple product definition based on your feedback.  We are delighted to invite you to participate in the survey below:

https://forms.gle/7ZpCzL7nrW2gZg2Z9

Your answers will help us improve our lightweight EUC

Edited November 18, 2022 by Cecily Inmotion

[Paul A]

4 hours ago, Cecily Inmotion said:

Your answers will help us improve our lightweight EUC

 

Solid state battery.  1000 km range per kilo.

Waterproof.  Dust proof.

Rapid 10 mins, wireless full charge,  using built in charger and phone app.

Citroen suspension.

High beam, low beam, LED headlights, 100k lumens.

Titanium steel frame.

Kevlar or carbon fibre shell.

Kevlar lined Michelin tyres.

ABS brakes.

Voice activated Suri/Alexa commands.

Self lateral balancing.

360 degrees omni directional wheel.

Self deploying air bags to protect tumbling wheel.

Voice recognition of owner to unlock wheel.

Self drive home/police station if ever stolen.

Heating/cooling compartment for food/drinks.

20kg maximum weight.

$1000 maximum price.

and an ashtray......for street cred....

[techyiam]

@Paul A

Inmotion is serious about building a new model that will be lighter and smaller than the V13.

They are testing the water of having potential customers to voice their opinions to help steer the direction they should go with this new wheel.

This could turn out to be a win-win interaction. 

It would be great shame to see this squandered, and dismissed. 

Edited November 18, 2022 by techyiam

[Funky]

1 hour ago, Paul A said:

 

Solid state battery.  1000 km range per kilo.

Waterproof.  Dust proof.

Rapid 10 mins, wireless full charge,  using built in charger and phone app.

Citroen suspension.

High beam, low beam, LED headlights, 100k lumens.

Titanium steel frame.

Kevlar or carbon fibre shell.

Kevlar lined Michelin tyres.

ABS brakes.

Voice activated Suri/Alexa commands.

Self lateral balancing.

360 degrees omni directional wheel.

Self deploying air bags to protect tumbling wheel.

Voice recognition of owner to unlock wheel.

Self drive home/police station if ever stolen.

Heating/cooling compartment for food/drinks.

20kg maximum weight.

$1000 maximum price.

and an ashtray......for street cred....

This man is so far ahead into future.. That we simpletons can't even apprehend.

The wheel price should be around ~8000$. That's where you made a little error...

 

Now you can call me a caveman. 

[Funky]

I wrote:

Water resistance. (Better would be waterproof.) Because most users ride 1/4 times in heavy rain.

Stronger axle for heavy riders. Want to see 300 lbs carry limits for all wheels.

16x3". 55kmh max speed. (Safe riding at 35-40kmh.) ~1000Wh battery. Weight 50-65 lbs. 15km range - more the better.

Bigger wheel well, so bigger tires would fit. (Most aftermarket tires are bigger...)

Less plastic - more metal. Strong metal frame that hold everything together.

Design - don't care. I want well built EUC. So called workhorse of a wheel. Reliable wheel for daily use.

 

(Didn't mention led screens, pedals, pads/power pads. Those little things really doesn't matter...)

 

I don't even need/want suspension.. But that's me. I'll take reliable wheel that can't "break" over comfort any day. Because i use mine wheel as needs of a transportation. Not a hobby!

[Paul A]

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

It would be great shame to see this squandered, and dismissed. 

 

Cecily has provided the link https://forms.gle/7ZpCzL7nrW2gZg2Z9  for actual responses from members.

Interesting to note that the questionnaire asked:  "Where can you imagine to swap the battery packs in real life use case?"

Perhaps this may become the next standardized feature in all wheels.

[techyiam]

4 minutes ago, Paul A said:

"Where can you imagine to swap the battery packs in real life use case?"

Perhaps this may become the next standardized feature in all wheels.

I think it would be desirable just from the safety perspective. 

For example, once I get a serious battery error message, or noticed abnormal charging behavior, with swappable packs, I have the option to simply take them out and put the packs some place where it won't endanger my home and my family's well being. Dealing with individual battery packs would be a lot easier than with heavy wheels themselves.

It would be an especially attractive option if the swappable battery packs would be universally compatible, across models from the same make, and even across makes.

Sometimes, I need to make more than one trip back to back. This could save me from having to have another wheel to switch to.

Another useful benefit would be the ability to switch to high discharge cell packs, or back to high capacity cell packs at a moment's notice. 

Moreover, if there is a standard, more effort and resources can be spent on making a good design for the battery pack once.

[Paul A]

42 minutes ago, Funky said:

Because i use mine wheel as needs of a transportation. Not a hobby!

 

Yes, the original purpose of the EUC. 

Last mile transportation.  Not a hobby.

Think someone mentioned that the highest selling EUCs was maybe the IM V8?  Small wheel, small battery, last mile transport.

 

People who purchased the IM V8 might not be enthusiasts that are on a forum like this.  Buy it , ride it, not interested in discussion groups.

Members here are have broad, in depth knowledge in so many aspects of EUC.

The questionnaire did have a qualifying question of 'Why do you want a small&light suspension wheel?'

 

Hope IM is finding the right people to questionnaire.

[mrelwood]

1 hour ago, Funky said:

55kmh max speed. (Safe riding at 35-40kmh.)

Inmotion wheels have a software limited top speed at a spot which is safe to ride as is. Usually at 65-70% of the no-load speed. I weigh 107kg + gear and I’d feel fully confident riding at the max speed on the V11.

 KingSong has had a varying history of being able to set the top speed at a safe level though. 16X shouldn’t have been a 50km/h wheel.

 Begode and LeaperKim report an arbitrary top speed at around 80% of the no-load speed, with nothing stopping you from riding past it. For example, if Begode made the V11, it would beep at 62km/h but you might be able to ride it up to 70km/h…

Point being, you don’t need to add an extra safety margin on top of the existing safety margin on Inmotion wheels. Or on most KingSongs either for that matter.

[Funky]

I personally don't see point of having swappable batteries. Most people buy wheel for their needs. If you need more range simply buy bigger wheel.

Sure you could have 2-4x more packs at home.. For quick exchange for full pack.. But how often would someone "REALY" need that. Think about that.

Also by having said swappable batteries. You only may have more problems over time. Water ingress - if not build the right way.. Connection wearing out - if not built right. (Most cases i see some kind of pins made or something as battery "slots" in..) On bumpy roads it may even result in cutout.  Over all there could be many problems.

 

Also don't forget we are talking about "smaller / lighter" wheel... Forget about top notch performance and everything you got on BIG WHEELS. -For fucks sake...

 

Also on the question. "Why do you want a small & light suspension wheel?"

Hmm... I wonder why i would want something "smaller" and "lighter"... Doh...... The question answers itself.

So i could carry it more easily. If i lived in 5th floor i could carry it easily. I would hate carrying anything over 65 lbs. And small so i can put it under train/bus seat. So it doesn't take up space.

Mten4 is perfect - But needs bigger tire and better axle. And also little bit more speed.

Edited November 18, 2022 by Funky

[Funky]

36 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

Inmotion wheels have a software limited top speed at a spot which is safe to ride as is. Usually at 65-70% of the no-load speed. I weigh 107kg + gear and I’d feel fully confident riding at the max speed on the V11.

 KingSong has had a varying history of being able to set the top speed at a safe level though. 16X shouldn’t have been a 50km/h wheel.

 Begode and LeaperKim report an arbitrary top speed at around 80% of the no-load speed, with nothing stopping you from riding past it. For example, if Begode made the V11, it would beep at 62km/h but you might be able to ride it up to 70km/h…

Point being, you don’t need to add an extra safety margin on top of the existing safety margin on Inmotion wheels. Or on most KingSongs either for that matter.

Then 50km/h speed would be perfect. If being 280 lbs and going 50km/h speed is still "safe".

I personally wan't ~10km/h headroom. You know.. For that extra safety feeling.  My 18xl is perfect wheel for my needs. As most times i ride around 35km/h and at top end i hit 42-44km/h. But it's range is wasted on me. And having real 3" tire would have been better.

I personally don't see myself buying "new" wheel anytime soon. Because there is nothing that performs like 18xl and it's weight. And have better built quality. (Also i don't wanna waste money by simply buying something that i already have..) I don't change my EUC like you all do.. Each month/year new euc. Changing them - like socks.  

When i bought my wheel, i put 4-5 years of "usage" timer, before looking at something new. (Or i may sell it, if i find something better..)

Edited November 18, 2022 by Funky

[techyiam]

11 minutes ago, Funky said:

Also by having said swappable batteries. You only may have more problems over time. Water ingress - if not build the right way.. Connection wearing out - if not built right. (Most cases i see some kind of pins made or something ass battery "slots" in..) On bumpy roads it may even result in cutout.  Over all there will be many problems.

I think most of that has already been worked out in battery swappable scooters in Taiwan. I think it is doable. Once it has been worked out, it would be a constant we can rely on.

Also, since battery packs add significant costs to an euc, if riders  could buy wheels without battery packs, they could perhaps afford to buy more wheels.

Another benefit could be in a case where a family has an euc for each member. But some members may not ride that frequently. For those few times one need more range, perhaps he or she could borrow a couple of packs from those who would not be using their wheels.