Smaller wheels - will they ever make a comeback?

[Funky]

1 hour ago, tst said:

How much people are there who live in appartments on the 5th floor with no elevator AND who have the money to spend on a product like a EUC?

Just an example.. Anywhere one would need to carry the wheel. 20kg vs 35kg I would say most would go 20kg if they had an OPTION.

Yeah in "most" houses we don't have elevators. (But that's mostly what region/country you live in.)

1 hour ago, tst said:

What would a new small wheel bring? Only maybe suspension. But that is still relatively new.

Better design. No need for suspension even. Simply better built wheel. So called "Re-Fresh".

1 hour ago, tst said:

There aren't much high power suspension wheels for sale secondhand.

I wonder why.. Because there is quit less "big-boy" wheels in the wild. (In my country i have seen only 60lbs under wheels..) Most people would simply buy car for those prices. Doh..

1 hour ago, tst said:

But V8, Ninebot One, V5f, KS etc there is enough for sale in the used market. So there's less demand for these things new than for models like the V11 etc.

 

Yes the "first" good euc's. The most old ones and most sold ones. So naturally second hand has those the most. Also as veteran EUC rider upgrades - he sells his old wheels.

I personally don't like buying used. I simply will add 300-500$ to get warranty.

1 hour ago, tst said:

I think the wait is for tech breakthrough. New tech could give small wheels a rebirth. Or new loose regulations in a interesting market like Germany.

Anything "new" sells. Some people will buy even same thing, simply new look. (Skins.)   (Apple users come to mind.. Gotta get new iphone each year.)  

Adding waterproofing alone would sell many new units. Increasing performance of older wheel. But same time not gaining much weight. Would sell them even better. Anything made ever can be "upgraded" and made better.

 

Most new buyers look at "new" recently released wheels at start. They don't look at 2018/2019 models. Because we all like new things, not old.. And what do they see? 2500$++ Overpriced monster wheels...  Again simple "Re-Fresh" would sell wheels.

 

Edited November 24, 2022 by Funky

[CrunchyTire]

9 hours ago, tst said:

How much people are there who live in appartments on the 5th floor with no elevator AND who have the money to spend on a product like a EUC?

What would a new small wheel bring? Only maybe suspension. But that is still relatively new.

There aren't much high power suspension wheels for sale secondhand.

But V8, Ninebot One, V5f, KS etc there is enough for sale in the used market. So there's less demand for these things new than for models like the V11 etc.

I think the wait is for tech breakthrough. New tech could give small wheels a rebirth. Or new loose regulations in a interesting market like Germany.

Lots of people WITH money live in apartments lol. Its not cheap living in a nice apartment. But I haven't personally seen any 5 story apartments that dont have elevators. My neighbors drive teslas mostly. Tech area, full of apartments and no houses for sale.  I dont want a 30 mile commute to work in a place I can buy a house. So I rent.

I live on a third floor walk up and I actually love carrying my wheels up the stairs. Master and Commander are not light wheels. if you carry up 3 flights every day, you get stronger, period. Theres nothing wrong with that. Honestly I could barely make up 3 flights with my master when I first got. 

[Funky]

7 hours ago, CrunchyTire said:

But I haven't personally seen any 5 story apartments that dont have elevators.

In my country only 9+ story apartments have the elevators. Any house with less floors - only stairs.  And you can say that we have about 90% houses without elevators. Because most houses are 5 floors.

Pretty much same soty even in capital city. But as more and more "fancy" big story houses get built - we get more and more elevators put in. As people are to lazy to walk.  

Edited November 25, 2022 by Funky

[Ben Kim]

On 11/24/2022 at 11:42 PM, CrunchyTire said:

Lots of people WITH money live in apartments lol. Its not cheap living in a nice apartment. But I haven't personally seen any 5 story apartments that dont have elevators. My neighbors drive teslas mostly. Tech area, full of apartments and no houses for sale.  I dont want a 30 mile commute to work in a place I can buy a house. So I rent.

I live on a third floor walk up and I actually love carrying my wheels up the stairs. Master and Commander are not light wheels. if you carry up 3 flights every day, you get stronger, period. Theres nothing wrong with that. Honestly I could barely make up 3 flights with my master when I first got. 

Come to NYC, there are six-floor buildings with no elevators. 

[Ben Kim]

This combination of speed and weight is hard to come by nowadays. 
 

we used to have the MCM5 and Tesla as stop gaps for the “fast enough” and “light enough” categories, but nowadays the only light wheel you can buy new is probably the Mten4. 
 

i rode an MSX 100v 1230Wh for almost two years due to its combination of speed and weight, (for sale btw!) but sadly it has limited utility at the speeds I like to ride (I get 16-18 miles at 35-37 mph, with another 5-7 at 20-25 mph). 22kg / 48lbs. Good luck getting 40 mph out of a wheel this light! 

Edited November 26, 2022 by Ben Kim

[MadVlad]

On 11/26/2022 at 3:14 AM, Ben Kim said:

This combination of speed and weight is hard to come by nowadays. 
 

we used to have the MCM5 and Tesla as stop gaps for the “fast enough” and “light enough” categories, but nowadays the only light wheel you can buy new is probably the Mten4. 
 

i rode an MSX 100v 1230Wh for almost two years due to its combination of speed and weight, (for sale btw!) but sadly it has limited utility at the speeds I like to ride (I get 16-18 miles at 35-37 mph, with another 5-7 at 20-25 mph). 22kg / 48lbs. Good luck getting 40 mph out of a wheel this light! 

I dont know if you really need anything above 25-30mph for a small wheel, if anything what you would want is for it to be able to deliver power for hard acceleration without cutting out. I dont ride my small wheel geared up most of the time, so I try not to go above sprinting speed, idea being that if I eat it I will do it at a speed where its a bad fall, not a hospital visit. If I was doing 30-40+ mph Id want to gear up, been in a motorcycle crash at those speeds and that was a whole lot of stitches.

Edited November 29, 2022 by MadVlad

[Funky]

6 hours ago, MadVlad said:

I dont know if you really need anything above 25-30mph for a small wheel, if anything what you would want is for it to be able to deliver power for hard acceleration without cutting out. I dont ride my small wheel geared up most of the time, so I try not to go above sprinting speed, idea being that if I eat it I will do it at a speed where its a bad fall, not a hospital visit. If I was doing 30-40+ mph Id want to gear up, been in a motorcycle crash at those speeds and that was a whole lot of stitches.

I do the same. When i ride to train, then to job. I only wear wrist guards. And try to go around ~20km/h. No need to hurry, or i need to wait at train stop.

But at fun rides i go around 35-42km/h. Same time i wear helmet, knee/wrist guards. My wheel can do ~31mph. But still i would love if it did 35mph. (Even if i would not use the whole power it offered ever.)

Simply having it - would be great.

 

Most "small" wheels can only do ~22mph.. Nothing close to 30mph even. (Aside from stretchy gotway..)

[KiwiMark]

8 hours ago, Funky said:

Most "small" wheels can only do ~22mph.. Nothing close to 30mph even. (Aside from stretchy gotway..)

I have a V12HT on the way, it is kind of a "small" wheel in that it has a 16" wheel which makes it quite compact and easy to fit in various places (including in trains & cars).  It isn't all that light though, but quite a bit less heavy than the Sherman-S or V13 or Master Pro.  The V12HT can do 60kph which I consider to be plenty, it should make it reasonably safe to ride at 30mph, but not much more than that.  The V12HS would comfortably handle riding at 35mph (again not overly light but compact and not crazy heavy).

I don't have stairs to deal with and for me the Sherman-S will be my main wheel, with the V12HT being a strong and powerful wheel that can go a reasonable speed while being not so heavy that I can't easily lift it into a storage space on my vehicle and being compact enough to fit into that storage space.  The Sherman-S will be my suspension wheel, my long-range wheel, my faster wheel, my more stable wheel, my main wheel to use when I don't need to fit it into a small space or do much lifting.

If I lived on the 5th floor of a building with only stairs available to come & go then things might be a lot different.  Here in New Zealand the vast majority of people live in ground-level single-story houses and those that do live in apartment buildings almost always have elevators they can use.  Every buyer needs to assess their own requirements and work out which products suits best their needs/wants.  For me, I just wish that I had enough money to buy any wheel I want so that I have a suitable wheel for any ride I want to do - I'd love to have the V12HT, Sherman-S, V13, Master Pro, S-22 and then whatever new wheel comes out that offers something different.

[Funky]

1 hour ago, KiwiMark said:

I have a V12HT on the way, it is kind of a "small" wheel in that it has a 16" wheel which makes it quite compact and easy to fit in various places (including in trains & cars).  It isn't all that light though, but quite a bit less heavy than the Sherman-S or V13 or Master Pro.  The V12HT can do 60kph which I consider to be plenty, it should make it reasonably safe to ride at 30mph, but not much more than that.  The V12HS would comfortably handle riding at 35mph (again not overly light but compact and not crazy heavy).

I don't have stairs to deal with and for me the Sherman-S will be my main wheel, with the V12HT being a strong and powerful wheel that can go a reasonable speed while being not so heavy that I can't easily lift it into a storage space on my vehicle and being compact enough to fit into that storage space.  The Sherman-S will be my suspension wheel, my long-range wheel, my faster wheel, my more stable wheel, my main wheel to use when I don't need to fit it into a small space or do much lifting.

If I lived on the 5th floor of a building with only stairs available to come & go then things might be a lot different.  Here in New Zealand the vast majority of people live in ground-level single-story houses and those that do live in apartment buildings almost always have elevators they can use.  Every buyer needs to assess their own requirements and work out which products suits best their needs/wants.  For me, I just wish that I had enough money to buy any wheel I want so that I have a suitable wheel for any ride I want to do - I'd love to have the V12HT, Sherman-S, V13, Master Pro, S-22 and then whatever new wheel comes out that offers something different.

When we are talking about "small" we are talking about "light" same time.  V12 is middle class wheel. Same as mine 18xl. Anything under 45lbs(20kg) is small/light.

45-65lbs(20-30kg) is middle. Anything past that is heavy monsters.. (Which i personally have no need whatsoever.) Because we don't ride with cars here. And going 20-26mph on empty sidewalks is plenty. (Ofc i slow down around people..)

I personally need only 1 wheel. That does everything. As i'm not off-roading "much". 18xl does everything for me.  Yeah i also was looking at V12, but then it had all those issues... I needed wheel that gets me from A to B and is very reliable.

[KiwiMark]

4 minutes ago, Funky said:

When we are talking about "small" we are talking about "light" same time.  V12 is middle class wheel. Same as mine 18xl. Anything under 45lbs(20kg) is small/light.

Definitely - the V12 may be compact and not too big, but it can't be called light.  If you want 20kg, unfortunately the V12 is around 50% heavier than that ideal weight - which is considerably heavier.

Unfortunately there are issues with lighter wheels to do with battery capacity and available power, so a rider needs to assess whether a lighter wheel will have enough torque, speed & range for their needs.  I've been on longer rides where my RS went through over 50% of its battery, this means that something with half the battery might run out.  Even a wheel with 2/3 of the battery on my RS would on the same ride be getting down to lower SoC and lower voltage, which would affect the available power, speed and safety margin.  When you look at the 'middle' size/weight wheels like the 18XL (1,554Wh), RS (1,800Wh), V12HT (1,750Wh), etc and compare them to light wheels like the MCM5V2 with 800Wh and other wheels with even smaller battery capacities - you see that you are getting half or less the battery capacity and therefore a lot less range.  How could you even make a wheel with good battery capacity that is at the same time lighter than 20kg?  I'd say that you can't do it today, but maybe in a few years you will be able to if new battery tech allows more battery storage for less size/weight.

Basically, for me to get the power/speed/range that I want, I have to forget light wheels and go to at least the middle weight wheels - at least currently.

[LowFlyingSquirrel]

19 minutes ago, KiwiMark said:

V12HT (1,750Wh),

At 200 wh/kg that would be 9kg. If racing road bikes with two wheels and everything else can weigh less than 6kg. 16 kg should be possible

[LowFlyingSquirrel]

49 minutes ago, Funky said:

45-65lbs(20-30kg) is middle. Anything past that is heavy monsters

I would say less than 14 kg is light. Ideally 6-12 with road bike speeds & stability ect.

[Funky]

7 minutes ago, KiwiMark said:

Definitely - the V12 may be compact and not too big, but it can't be called light.  If you want 20kg, unfortunately the V12 is around 50% heavier than that ideal weight - which is considerably heavier.

Unfortunately there are issues with lighter wheels to do with battery capacity and available power, so a rider needs to assess whether a lighter wheel will have enough torque, speed & range for their needs.  I've been on longer rides where my RS went through over 50% of its battery, this means that something with half the battery might run out.  Even a wheel with 2/3 of the battery on my RS would on the same ride be getting down to lower SoC and lower voltage, which would affect the available power, speed and safety margin.  When you look at the 'middle' size/weight wheels like the 18XL (1,554Wh), RS (1,800Wh), V12HT (1,750Wh), etc and compare them to light wheels like the MCM5V2 with 800Wh and other wheels with even smaller battery capacities - you see that you are getting half or less the battery capacity and therefore a lot less range.  How could you even make a wheel with good battery capacity that is at the same time lighter than 20kg?  I'd say that you can't do it today, but maybe in a few years you will be able to if new battery tech allows more battery storage for less size/weight.

Basically, for me to get the power/speed/range that I want, I have to forget light wheels and go to at least the middle weight wheels - at least currently.

Don't forget everyone don't need range. I charge mine 18xl 2 times a week. Or after 2 "fun" rides, normally when battery drops at 45-50%.

KS16S did everything i needed. But sadly i knew i would be hitting it's 22mph limit often. (Which in my case would be kinda bad.. I'm big boned.)  

 

I like wheels who have 18" tire. But sadly most have way to high range. Which increases their price. I would love to see big performance/speed/torque and same time low ~1000Wh battery. Heck even 16" would be great, if it was built right.

 

Don't forget we are talking about smaller wheels. - We don't need amazing ranges. We buy smaller wheels because they are cheaper and lighter. And very easy to transport around. No need for more than 1000Wh on these wheels. But if they could add more speed with smaller battery - that would be great.

[Funky]

8 minutes ago, LowFlyingSquirrel said:

I would say less than 14 kg is light. Ideally 6-12 with road bike speeds & stability ect.

Ofc. 5kg would be even better, more amazing. But sadly we don't live in that world yet.

Em what speed is road bike speed? My mountain bike speed where 20-30km/h normally.  Everyone has their own "bike speed".

 

And i bought my EUC for same bike speeds. And now i'm riding normally at 35km/h. (So glad i went with bigger wheel.)

Edited November 29, 2022 by Funky

[LowFlyingSquirrel]

12 minutes ago, Funky said:

I like wheels who have 18" tire. But sadly most have way to high range. Which increases their price. I would love to see big performance/speed/torque and same time low ~1000Wh battery

I am not sure smaller battery saves the most dollars. Auto manufactures produce vehicles with 5c peak or continuous (yes big difference) and 2c charging with batteries which last 100x - 300x KwH before 20% degradation for less than 100 - 60 $ per KwH. 

[LowFlyingSquirrel]

14 minutes ago, Funky said:

Em what speed is road bike speed? My mountain bike speed where 20-30km/h normally

I regularly see kids on kids bikes at 20 - 30. I would say 40 - 60. Downhill up to 90. 

[Funky]

30 minutes ago, LowFlyingSquirrel said:

I regularly see kids on kids bikes at 20 - 30. I would say 40 - 60. Downhill up to 90. 

Yeah those speeds i can see wheel being in 20-45kg range. 

More batteries - more weight. Bigger motor - more weight. (I was talking about ~1000Wh because lighter. And same time it "should" be cheaper.)

Because that's how it works.. More = More. Less = Less.

I like Less.  But More for Less is always better.

[techyiam]

On 11/29/2022 at 3:43 PM, LowFlyingSquirrel said:

I regularly see kids on kids bikes at 20 - 30. I would say 40 - 60. Downhill up to 90. 

My experience around these parts is that there are some racer type cyclists who can climb a steep hill at 40 km/h for a about half a block. I probably can't even do 10 km/h. I have never encounter a cyclist going faster than 65 km/h going down hill. Typically, very few cyclist I have encountered maintain 40 to 60 km/h. But they exist alright. Some of these guys are really fit. Many commuter type are fast too. But more like 30 to 45 km/h. Once we hit a steep hill, most cyclists speed drop like s rock. But not all.

 

Edited December 1, 2022 by techyiam

[LowFlyingSquirrel]

5 minutes ago, Funky said:

1000Wh because lighter. And same time it "should" be cheaper.)

Realistically, it shouldn't be much cheaper with the same performance. Batteries could be the cheapest part of an EUC.

[mrelwood]

2 hours ago, LowFlyingSquirrel said:

At 200 wh/kg that would be 9kg. If racing road bikes with two wheels and everything else can weigh less than 6kg. 16 kg should be possible

Racing road bikes have a motor that weighs around 70kg though… On an EUC the motor only weighs 7-14kg! The amount of copper, magnets, and stable structure weighs a lot, with little possibility of making it lighter.

[LowFlyingSquirrel]

5 hours ago, mrelwood said:

acing road bikes with two wheels and everything else can weigh less than 6kg

 

5 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Racing road bikes have a motor that weighs around 70kg though

Bicycles

5 hours ago, mrelwood said:

On an EUC the motor only weighs 7-14kg! The amount of copper, magnets, and stable structure weighs a lot, with little possibility of making it lighter.

10 kW per KG should be possible for an electric motor.

[mrelwood]

8 minutes ago, LowFlyingSquirrel said:

Bicycles

Exactly.

 

8 minutes ago, LowFlyingSquirrel said:

10 kW per KG should be possible for an electric motor.

How?

[LowFlyingSquirrel]

Pro's can hit peaks of around 2kw. So they're incredibly inefficient motors, measured in watts per kg.

EMRAX228 is 11.9 kg for 100 kw peak.

[mrelwood]

2 hours ago, LowFlyingSquirrel said:

Pro's can hit peaks of around 2kw. So they're incredibly inefficient motors, measured in watts per kg.

EMRAX228 is 11.9 kg for 100 kw peak.

EMRAX228 doesn’t sound like a bidirectional BLDC motor though.

 I’m not very knowledgeable on electric motor design, but I do know that with EUCs, one requires a motor that rotates in both directions, and either needs excellent precision or a geared system. Picking any electric motor as a reference don’t quite work.

[Paul A]

3 hours ago, LowFlyingSquirrel said:

EMRAX228 is 11.9 kg for 100 kw peak.

 

The EMRAXX motor is listed for airplanes, and as requiring AC......will it be suitable for EUCs?

 

https://simpleflying.com/aircraft-electrical-system-guide/

The Ins & Outs Of An Aircraft's Electrical System

Alternating Current (AC) or Direct Current (DC)

It is common to find DC power as the main source of electricity in smaller aircraft.

For example, in most turboprop aircraft such as the ATR and the Dash 8s, the DC motors act as starter generators during start-up.

In larger aircraft, AC power is used.

AC motors have a better power-to-weight ratio and are simpler in design.

As bigger aircraft require a lot more electrical power, DC motors and a DC power system become impractical.