King Song S22 motor stator slippage issue: more severe than expected

[supercurio]

Same as @meepmeepmayer - @djkillermemestar I can't hear anything out of the ordinary when riding a S22 from this clip.

[Uniquely Muni]

https://www.facebook.com/100058144086358/posts/504839284797537/?flite=scwspnss

Alien Rides is saying they expect new motors to be going to customers by the end of Nov. Thanks Alien Rides! 

[meepmeepmayer]

5 minutes ago, supercurio said:

Same as @meepmeepmayer - @djkillermemestar I can't hear anything out of the ordinary when riding a S22 from this clip.

There's a general high pitched whine, but I don't know if the S22 is supposed to do that.

[djkillermemestar]

6 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

There's a general high pitched whine, but I don't know if the S22 is supposed to do that.

It's the high piched sound you hear indeed.

The problem is that the sound comes and goes, so taking a video with the wheel free is hard. I was just riding and it poped up so i wanted to make a video asap before it went away again.

I'll see if i can repro it free floating.

[NErider]

It may be some "harmonic vibration". My wheel does it at some certain speeds or load on the motor. There have been posts describing something similar,  and it could be the fender, or any screw or hard ware needing to be tightened. 

Can't say for sure as I can't determine your specific noise. But it may be something to look into. 

[5Cauac]

After my Motor and Control Board failure, my dealer was able to send me an updated motor with the corrected stator issue and a brand new Control Board within the week. A big shout out to the folks over at eWheels.com, best customer service in the PEV market hands down!! In this episode, I put my re-build through some tests of stability, torque, handling, and suspension performance. Enjoy! 😀

 

 

[NErider]

Is your new motor form Ewheels made by ZX? It should be in the serial number if it is. I think that would be a pinned motor. And a different MFG'd motor will be out soon. 

[5Cauac]

2 minutes ago, NErider said:

Is your new motor form Ewheels made by ZX? It should be in the serial number if it is. I think that would be a pinned motor. And a different MFG'd motor will be out soon. 

Yes, it is a pinned ZX motor manufactured in July and re-serialized in August.

[fbhb]

Ecodrift have just put out a teardown, including a video of the S18 V2, which shows the motor has been pinned there too!

https://ecodrift.ru/2022/10/12/kingsong-s18-v2-910wh-razbiraem/

 

Edited October 14, 2022 by fbhb

[Planemo]

Amazes me that we're still seeing coils wound by hand.

I guess thats the result of super cheap labour

[fbhb]

1 hour ago, Planemo said:

Amazes me that we're still seeing coils wound by hand.

I guess thats the result of super cheap labour

Nothing I see with how things are done on the cheap on our EUC's comes as any surprise to me, unfortunately!

I would be way more surprised if we ever started to see top quality materials, close tolerances and genuine attention to detail throughout the whole construction process.

[supercurio]

Here's the test that your S22 should pass! Thanks to my friend Tobias on that one

A motor from June 16, but labelled KS-S22

 

[Elliott Reitz]

Well I had thought my problem was the controller.  But now I think its actually slipped the stator, or at least busted off 1 of the 4 hall-sensors. 

I purchased a drill press, set screws, tap-set.  So before drilling and putting the motor back togeather I decided to continuity test the hall-sense wires.  The red, blue, green wires beeped.  But the white appears to go to black inside the harnessing and never beeped anywhere I could probe.  As I looked closer I noticed there are 4 notches in the stator-magnetic plates with 3 of them having hall sensors in them.  But the 4th where it looks like the black wire should go was empty and that black wire was tight.  As I dug it out from under the glue there's nothing attatched to it.  

[fbhb]

10 minutes ago, Elliott Reitz said:

But the 4th where it looks like the black wire should go was empty and that black wire was tight.  As I dug it out from under the glue there's nothing attatched to it.

Isn't that Black wire the motor temperature sensor wire? Someone will correct me if I'm wrong!

[Elliott Reitz]

Just now, fbhb said:

Isn't that Black wire the motor temperature sensor wire? Someone will correct me if I'm wrong!

Well if it is just the temperature sense wire that could be 'good' news.  But I cannot beep out the white wire either.  And is there supposed to be an open notch like that (per my index finger in the pics)?

[supercurio]

21 minutes ago, Elliott Reitz said:

Well I had thought my problem was the controller.  But now I think its actually slipped the stator, or at least busted off 1 of the 4 hall-sensors. 

I purchased a drill press, set screws, tap-set.  So before drilling and putting the motor back togeather I decided to continuity test the hall-sense wires.  The red, blue, green wires beeped.  But the white appears to go to black inside the harnessing and never beeped anywhere I could probe.  As I looked closer I noticed there are 4 notches in the stator-magnetic plates with 3 of them having hall sensors in them.  But the 4th where it looks like the black wire should go was empty and that black wire was tight.  As I dug it out from under the glue there's nothing attatched to it.  

Yes like @fbhb mentioned, the black wire is the temperature sensor.

It's often - but not always the first to get pulled off after stator slippage. It's what introduces a faint scraping sound that tends to disappear quickly.
Good you found it before it's too late, and are checking all the wires.

By the way, a drill press turns out to not be a requirement to add pins, as an increasing amount now are making the holes with a hand drill successfully.
I'm saying that for those who might not be keen on investing on more tools.

21 minutes ago, Elliott Reitz said:

By the way, that's a lot of rust! How comes?

Edited October 14, 2022 by supercurio

[fbhb]

4 minutes ago, Elliott Reitz said:

And is there supposed to be an open notch like that (per my index finger in the pics)?

I have had to replace a faulty hall sensor on my S18 in the past. I also noticed an empty slot on the S18 stator, so would not expect that anything is supposed to be mounted there!

[Elliott Reitz]

4 minutes ago, supercurio said:

Yes like @fbhb mentioned, the black wire is the temperature sensor.

It's often - but not always the first to get pulled off after stator slippage. It's what introduces a faint scraping sound that tends to disappear quickly.
Good you found it before it's too late, and are checking all the wires.

By the way, a drill press turns out to not be a requirement to add pins, as an increasing amount now are making the holes with a hand drill successfully.
I'm saying that for those who might not be keen on investing on more tools.

By the way, that's a lot of rust! How comes?

Thanks.

Yea its alot of rust.  I didn't get enough time to ride in rain.  So that's all from hose-spray cleaning at the most.  Id say the motor covers lacked seal around the outside and one of the screws to hold the covers was stripped before I ever touched it.  Not even any RTV on it.  CQ=crap. 

2 minutes ago, fbhb said:

I have had to replace a faulty hall sensor on my S18 in the past. I also noticed an empty slot on the S18 stator, so would not expect that anything is supposed to be mounted there!

OK Good to know.  I just cut back the sheething and can see the white wire couples to that black-wire-loop and the other side goes back as black from the circuit board.  So maybe it is OK.   I just wish I had a better means to test it before adding the pins and putting it back togeather.  As bad as it is being stuck on an old S18 or MSX-100V, I do feel safer than tI do the way things are going with my S20 (yea it was V1, and S22 is only a firmware update/controller replacement on this wheel).

[Elliott Reitz]

On 10/3/2022 at 12:48 AM, Slartibartfast said:

Okay, after looking at this more I'm beginning to wonder if maybe that wayward piece of silicon is the bit that has moved and it actually made the black mark as it slid.

If rather than attaching at the end of the other piece of silicon it were to come from higher up it could have potentially made the line itself:

It's hard to imagine what would have made it move from beneath those other wires while the parts both above and below it stayed together, and that score mark is surprisingly straight (rather than following the arc of the rim) but it does go suspiciously from one end of the black mart to the other: 

There is also that unexplained green coloured arc running along the lower part of the main block of silicon: 

 

I would love to understand what is going on here if anyone knows.

I'm still concerned if my stator is good.  Most recent replies said the black wire pair going to the left in this pic is just a temp-sensor.  Mine had the glue looking intact before I dug through the glue (green highlighted area in this @Slartibartfast image).  However, the left most stator-magnet-slot in his pic has a white glue visible in this area.  My slot was completely empty.   

So bottom line is I NEED an electrical-test means to check this motor before re-assembling.  I've asked AR for a new controller (on Sept 26th).  Thier reply said they're waiting for the parts.  

Edited October 15, 2022 by Elliott Reitz
cut duplication

[supercurio]

@Elliott Reitz I realize that I missed earlier that it's you who pulled off the temperature sensor to check it, instead of something happening due to stator slippage.
It means that from this side, there's nothing indicating that the stator rotated.

For a more definite answer you can check the other side, where rotation should be fairly easy to notice, with misalignment of the black ring with the inner "spokes"

Edited October 15, 2022 by supercurio

[Javier464]

I have the same problem with the engine temperature sensor.

 

 

I have done all possible tests

 

 

the sensor needs to be replaced, would someone know how many K is the ntc sensor?

[Elliott Reitz]

1 hour ago, supercurio said:

@Elliott Reitz I realize that I missed earlier that it's you who pulled off the temperature sensor to check it, instead of something happening due to stator slippage.
It means that from this side, there's nothing indicating that the stator rotated.

For a more definite answer you can check the other side, where rotation should be fairly easy to notice, with misalignment of the black ring with the inner "spokes"

Check this next quoted post I shared back 10/2.  In it I show the black tab alignment.  Its at the far edge of the range and pushed up just a little.  With pinning I'm not sure that's a problem as long as the hall sensors work.  But yea, now that I'm drilling the pins - I'm not impressed by that operation either.  I'm 2 out of 4 for getting the drill holes to strattle the 2 materials.  Broke off a drill bit and nicked the stator-coil wires a couple of times too.  They don't look too bad, but if one of them did get hot and burn loose later... I'm F###### tired of this BULL###.  At this point I don't know if I will ever have use of this wheel again.  Supposedly its warrenteed till 2/2024, but WTF good is that when even the US dealer can't get the parts.  

On 10/2/2022 at 7:51 PM, Elliott Reitz said:

Yea, seems like someone cut corners.  I need to use RTV (rubberized automotive gasket maker) around the outer edge of the covers.  But for the bearings on the stator hub IDK what to do.  Maybe some sort of Locktight would work, but i I'm not so sure.  On the side that slides on easy, there's 1 rotational-angle of the cover/bearing that fits easiest.  That hints that the hub is not perfectly round or straight.  I'd like to think that after mounting the stator set screws I'd never need to open the motor again.  Sadly my hopes aren't as high as I'd like for this wheel.  

Like is Kingsong on lockdown again?  I think they have hardware problems on their controllers and there seems to be a shortage of working boards among S22 owners.  I wonder what % of S22s are actually working for over 500 miles straight?  My S22 from Alien Rides (AR) is 0 for 2 (220 miles + 370) on controllers.  The eWheels S22 was 0 for 1 on controller.  So that's 0 for 3 controllers making it 500 miles for me.  This time my S22 (from AR) is down with error 17 (hall sensor) which must be the controller because it doesn't look like my stator is slipped, or if it has its only moved about 1/4" (per the black tabs alignment to look like screw-holes. 

 

[0000]

21 hours ago, supercurio said:

By the way, a drill press turns out to not be a requirement to add pins, as an increasing amount now are making the holes with a hand drill successfully.
I'm saying that for those who might not be keen on investing on more tools.

 There's also the Drill Mate for a cheaper way to lock-in your drill axis for those who want a little more insurance over the hand-drill method, but don't want to splurge on or have room for a drill press. Just looking at the posts above, sounds like you'd need to spend some time setting it up above the motor on blocks, aligning and clamping, as well as clamping the motor too in the right orientation, but just thought I'd point out this cheaper alternative tool for the drill operations.

[Elliott Reitz]

22 minutes ago, Vanturion said:

 There's also the Drill Mate for a cheaper way to lock-in your drill axis for those who want a little more insurance over the hand-drill method, but don't want to splurge on or have room for a drill press. Just looking at the posts above, sounds like you'd need to spend some time setting it up above the motor on blocks, aligning and clamping, as well as clamping the motor too in the right orientation, but just thought I'd point out this cheaper alternative tool for the drill operations.

My 1st hole was the only one I felt was a repeatable operation.  Why?  Because I drilled a smaller size 1st.  I'm not convinced that clamping and blocking would make it repeatable when the drill bit flexes out trying to be on the shelf like that breaking through.  

[0000]

4 minutes ago, Elliott Reitz said:

My 1st hole was the only one I felt was a repeatable operation.  Why?  Because I drilled a smaller size 1st.  I'm not convinced that clamping and blocking would make it repeatable when the drill bit flexes out trying to be on the shelf like that breaking through.  

Good experience to share then starting with a smaller hole first. Perhaps burying the majority of the drill bit in the chuck for starting the hole would help resist the drill bit flex problem too. Sorry I haven't been following this too much, just saw supercurio's post about the drill press and thought I'd throw out a cheaper alternative I recently used in lieu of a drill press.