King Song S22 motor stator slippage issue: more severe than expected

[supercurio]

1 hour ago, Elliott Reitz said:

I think you'd have a hard time proving the rider wasn't already taking his risks.  

PS:  Chance Hinz had a stator slip on a T4 too.  I suspect the problem is only manifesting now in wheels with >2500W of power. 

@Elliott Reitz wheels with higher 0 rpm torque than the S22 and T4 have existed for a while, including the good old 16X.
The problem is mostly novel due to issues in the design and/or manufacturing process of the motor supplier ZX, not the rated motor power (which is mostly a made up number and not directly related to torque)

[Robse]

10 hours ago, Elliott Reitz said:

We shouldn't be too surprised this is happening.  Why?  Well our high power wheels ARE the Most Advanced Hub Motors to date.  So I'm speculating (again) that these stator-frames with pressed on Stators are common to most if not all hub motors.  Yet the biggest and highest hub motors yet produced are EUCs.  When its an ebike or something like an old e+ stator just didn't have the force to slip.  But with high torque wheels, we found out the hard way. 

Bottom line (opinion) - All new EUCs with over 2000 W power should be disassembled for the insertion of the 5mm set screw.

 

I will not drill in my 16X  (2200W) or my  RS (2600W).  Sure, the slipping has something in common with power of the motor.  But if this was a general problem, it would have been visible a long time ago on many other models, Nikola, RS, Monster, V11, V12, 16X, 18XL, Sherman + more...

I believe that the whole problem is due to a bad coincidence of a newly developed engine and bad
quality control combined with non existing production ethics or consumer responsibility at the company
(ZX ?) that manufactures the engines.

Oh btw, you can buy 7000W hub motors for you ebike, so our EUC motors are not uniqe in terms of Watt.   Or a 12KW 17" with 200 - 350 Nm torque

https://www.qsmotor.com/product/17-inch-12kw-hub-motor/

 

[NSFW]

10 hours ago, Paulc said:

I find it concerning that suppliers continue to sell a product in the knowledge they are putting people's lives at risk over making a quick buck! If a seller knowingly sells a dangerous item and the buyer suffers a serious accident as a result of the know fault,  can the buyer take legal action against the seller?

I did cancel my S22 based on this problem alone, I for one, can't be kingsongs guinea pig.

The S22 manufacturing problem was addressed months ago. Apparently the manufacturer started pinning the stators in July, perhaps June, but I don't think anyone knows exactly when.

The S22 seems to sell pretty quickly, so I think it would be a challenge to find a dealer that still has units in stock that were manufactured before they started adding the pins.

The problem now is the units that were manufactured before they started pinning the stator - those delivered in June and July, perhaps August.

[NSFW]

Just now, NSFW said:

The S22 manufacturing problem was addressed months ago.

On second thought, there is still some question of whether the control boards are reliable.

I can't believe I didn't think of that before I hit the Submit button, because I'm still waiting for a replacement for my own dead board.

It's not clear to me that King Song understands why so many of them have burned out. One well known rider (whose name escapes me) has killed 3 of them.

[FunTech4Real]

On 9/30/2022 at 6:49 AM, Elliott Reitz said:

We shouldn't be too surprised this is happening.  Why?  Well our high power wheels ARE the Most Advanced Hub Motors to date.  So I'm speculating (again) that these stator-frames with pressed on Stators are common to most if not all hub motors.  Yet the biggest and highest hub motors yet produced are EUCs.  When its an ebike or something like an old e+ stator just didn't have the force to slip.  But with high torque wheels, we found out the hard way. 

Bottom line (opinion) - All new EUCs with over 2000 W power should be disassembled for the insertion of the 5mm set screw.  (I will skip my old MSX100V and my S18).  But I'm putting the pins in my S22 and also into my Master when it arrives. 

 

The Sondors Metacycle https://sondors.com/collections/metacycle uses a hub motor and its a motorcycle that weighs 300 lbs and goes 80 MPH... The hub motor it in is far more powerful than any unicycle. However.... its also a brand new product and is just now being released. 

 

Edited October 1, 2022 by sevin7

[Elliott Reitz]

15 hours ago, supercurio said:

@Elliott Reitz wheels with higher 0 rpm torque than the S22 and T4 have existed for a while, including the good old 16X.
The problem is mostly novel due to issues in the design and/or manufacturing process of the motor supplier ZX, not the rated motor power (which is mostly a made up number and not directly related to torque)

Because slip has a random element to it I'm still concerned about other products (T4, S22, ...???) having slip issues.  

6 hours ago, NSFW said:

On second thought, there is still some question of whether the control boards are reliable.

I can't believe I didn't think of that before I hit the Submit button, because I'm still waiting for a replacement for my own dead board.

It's not clear to me that King Song understands why so many of them have burned out. One well known rider (whose name escapes me) has killed 3 of them.

I have had 3 control boards fail.  All seem to have blown out the ground switches between battery and charger ground.  All have produced the growling noise that seems hall sensor relted.  2 of them have produced er17 over hall voltage.  All that was with 2 S22 wheels in which one was returned (for a Master) thanks eWheels!

Right now I'm waiting for controller #4 from Alien Rides.  Hopefully they can send me a wheel bearing and a set of motor mount screws too. 

Thanks everyone for answering my speculations about hub motor technology.  One thing for sure, this issue should drive a solution similar to the set screws universially into hub motor design.  Something like alignment notches press fit pins. 

[Robse]

16 minutes ago, Elliott Reitz said:

I have had 3 control boards fail.  All seem to have blown out the ground switches between battery and charger ground.  All have produced the growling noise that seems hall sensor relted.  2 of them have produced er17 over hall voltage.  All that was with 2 S22 wheels in which one was returned (for a Master) thanks eWheels!

Right now I'm waiting for controller #4 from Alien Rides.  Hopefully they can send me a wheel bearing and a set of motor mount screws too.

And something completely different is: Your patience is admirable    - I don't have such a long fuse - but fortunately neither an S22 nor a ....

[Elliott Reitz]

On 9/29/2022 at 1:48 PM, RolluS said:

Good to know, ZX reported the problem to the T4 then... (ironic kidding)

Chance's motor:

@supercurioyou said "Good catch and bad news, meaning that ZX fixed it on the S22 motor in July but not on the T4.
I asked my friend and will report." Is it confirmed if/when they fixed on T4 please?

So my old S18 is also ZX but doesn't seem to produce the torque to make it slip.  Anyone know, what about the master?  (expecting one soon)

[supercurio]

35 minutes ago, Elliott Reitz said:

So my old S18 is also ZX but doesn't seem to produce the torque to make it slip.

By the way, the Russian community is concerned and started looking into the S18 V2 however, which got upgraded with the S22 motors.

The first few who checked had motors from July, but some pointed out that it was released a while ago. Something to keep an eye on if you buy an S18 now.

35 minutes ago, Elliott Reitz said:

Anyone know, what about the master?  (expecting one soon)

No stator slippage issue reported on C38 Master so far, like C38 RS or MSP.

What I hear is that Begode will not continue with ZX beyond that (probably a wise call). It is uncertain what will happen with the first T4 units, I don't think anybody knows what to do with them now, including Begode themselves.

I would personally recommend Begode and dealers to to go for the drilling approach until they secure a supply of better motors, unless all T4 owners are willing to ground their units for a good while (which I doubt they're willing to)

Edited October 1, 2022 by supercurio

[Elliott Reitz]

3 hours ago, supercurio said:

... Master... C38 {is fine}...  I would personally recommend Begode and dealers to to go for the drilling approach until they secure a supply of better motors, unless all T4 owners are willing to ground their units for a good while (which I doubt they're willing to)  

Thanks for info!  I saw a vid removing a T4 slider to do a tire change.  It looks much easier to remove a Begode motor without dealing with the impossible screws that KS dealt us.  The motor mounts were especially over tight, and over glued, and this isn't a high vibration application so that level Locktight and screw-torque was ridiculous.  

My recommendations:

1. When heating the bolts you will see a puff of smoke when they are hot enough to burn the Locktight

2. After heating the bolts, let the heads cool before using an impact driver like I did.  The hot heads stripped like butter.  Seems the alloy softens at the temp needed to burn the Locktight .  

3. Tips to remove the wheel: 

• Remove the screws from controller, but then only lift it enough to remove the motor cable.   If you omit that screw from the grommet that's under the controller then next time you won't need to remove the controller screws either.   If your wheel isn't er17 dead you can prevent it from trying to power up by plugging in the charger while removing with the grommet screws and cable.
• From suspension only remove the 3-screws on back each side, or maybe the linkage bearing between them and the instead (I have no fender so I don't need to do both)
• Remove the battery bottom covers.  For next time grind notches in them to allow the sliders in/out without removing them.  

[5Cauac]

How funny, I just now logged in to post a pic of the inside of my motor and noticed @Elliott Reitz's post above.

@Elliott Reitz Sorry to hear you had such difficulties with removing the motor.

Well, as suspected, it turns out it was a slipped stator after all. I though I recognized that loud squeak noise. I'll be putting out a video soon.

 

 

 

 

[Mishkin]

So the announcement and video from Kingsong were definitely retracted. Does anyone have any dialogue still ongoing with them or any manufacturer about this problem, or are there reports of any dealers who have? Or has it all gone silent?

Edited October 2, 2022 by Mishkin

[Slartibartfast]

14 hours ago, 5Cauac said:

Excuse my ignorance, but how can you tell the stator has slipped?
Is it because that white silicon has been broken?

[5Cauac]

48 minutes ago, Slartibartfast said:

Excuse my ignorance, but how can you tell the stator has slipped?
Is it because that white silicon has been broken?

Yes. That used to be one application of silicone not two. You can also see where the "black" wire has stretched across the gap. 

[Elliott Reitz]

This video shows that the "clunk" sound from the bearings to distinguish it from the scrape(with possible knock) of the stator-slipped before fail.  Now that I see how loose the bearings are to the stator hub I can see how they create the "clunk" that's pre-loaded via rotation to release with a "pop".  

 

[techyiam]

23 minutes ago, Elliott Reitz said:

This video shows that the "clunk" sound from the bearings to distinguish it from the scrape(with possible knock) of the stator-slipped before fail.  Now that I see how loose the bearings are to the stator hub I can see how they create the "clunk" that's pre-loaded via rotation to release with a "pop".  

Shouldn't bearings be pressed-fitted with the right amount of interference? Otherwise, premature failure would occur. The steel bearings would hammer the aluminum alloy housing in the motor side cover. There cannot be any play.

I wonder if this is less of a QC problem, and more like somebody decided to cut corners in the bearings press-fit assembly process, and relaxed the interference fit requirement for ease of assembly.

[Elliott Reitz]

22 minutes ago, techyiam said:

Shouldn't bearings be pressed-fitted with the right amount of interference? Otherwise, premature failure would occur. The steel bearings would hammer the aluminum alloy housing in the motor side cover. There cannot be any play.

I wonder if this is less of a QC problem, and more like somebody decided to cut corners in the bearings press-fit assembly process, and relaxed the interference fit requirement for ease of assembly.

Yea, seems like someone cut corners.  I need to use RTV (rubberized automotive gasket maker) around the outer edge of the covers.  But for the bearings on the stator hub IDK what to do.  Maybe some sort of Locktight would work, but i I'm not so sure.  On the side that slides on easy, there's 1 rotational-angle of the cover/bearing that fits easiest.  That hints that the hub is not perfectly round or straight.  I'd like to think that after mounting the stator set screws I'd never need to open the motor again.  Sadly my hopes aren't as high as I'd like for this wheel.  

Like is Kingsong on lockdown again?  I think they have hardware problems on their controllers and there seems to be a shortage of working boards among S22 owners.  I wonder what % of S22s are actually working for over 500 miles straight?  My S22 from Alien Rides (AR) is 0 for 2 (220 miles + 370) on controllers.  The eWheels S22 was 0 for 1 on controller.  So that's 0 for 3 controllers making it 500 miles for me.  This time my S22 (from AR) is down with error 17 (hall sensor) which must be the controller because it doesn't look like my stator is slipped, or if it has its only moved about 1/4" (per the black tabs alignment to look like screw-holes. 

Edited October 2, 2022 by Elliott Reitz
+pic

[Planemo]

Locktight do a really good product called 'Bearing Fit' (638 or 641) both of which work well. Assuming of course the fit isn't too sloppy, or the housings aren't mangled. 

[Slartibartfast]

11 hours ago, 5Cauac said:

Yes. That used to be one application of silicone not two. You can also see where the "black" wire has stretched across the gap. 

I'm afraid I still don't quite get it.

 

Help me understand...
As I see it there are 3 hall sensors and 5 wires comprising a +ive, -ive as well 3 signal wires. These 5 wires seem well aligned with the hall sensors themselves:

 

Additionally these wires are glued with white silicon to a "paper-like" insulator to keep them from moving. This paper-like insulator has a black line strike across it which continues onto the aluminium of the inner part of the motor itself, showing it has not moved. While there is a wayward dab of silicon to the left of frame I'm struggling to understand what it was originally connected to as the hall sensors, insolation paper, black stripe and wires zip-tied to the inner part of the motor all seem well aligned. What am I missing here?

 

Edit:
For comparison, here is what the inside of my own Gotway wheel looked like when I opened it a while ago:

Note the green signal wire and the grey hall sensor wire had separated which was the problem I was addressing at the time.

Edited October 3, 2022 by Slartibartfast

[Elliott Reitz]

12 minutes ago, Slartibartfast said:

Help me understand...
... While there is a wayward dab of silicon to the left of frame I'm struggling to understand what it was originally connected to as the hall sensors, insolation paper, black stripe and wires zip-tied to the inner part of the motor all seem well aligned. What am I missing here?

Follow the black wire from the left to the sheething.  Mine has shrink wrap over the end going to the left side where yours shows under the silicon.  It may be worth testing it by connecting everything minus the wheel-rotor.  Just the stator won't spin.   See if it powers up w/o Err 17.  If not, check + and - connections from the stator or ohm-meter beep them to the controller.  

[Slartibartfast]

To be clear this isn't actually my wheel, I'm just trying to understand what is wrong with the image @5Cauac posted.
It was posted to show that the stator had slipped but I just can't see what shows it.

Also, to be clear, I'm not doubting what 5Cauac is saying I'm just wanting to understand what he is seeing that I am not.

 

7 hours ago, Elliott Reitz said:

Follow the black wire from the left to the sheething.

This is the black wire:

From what I can tell the black line underneath looks like more of a mark than a wire but who knows, it's pretty hard to make out.

 

@5Cauac would it be possible to get a higher resolution image of that part? As it is we are trying to look at just a small part of what was only a 640x360 image to begin with. Any chance you could give us a more detailed image to work with?

 

 

Edited October 3, 2022 by Slartibartfast

[Slartibartfast]

Okay, after looking at this more I'm beginning to wonder if maybe that wayward piece of silicon is the bit that has moved and it actually made the black mark as it slid.

If rather than attaching at the end of the other piece of silicon it were to come from higher up it could have potentially made the line itself:

It's hard to imagine what would have made it move from beneath those other wires while the parts both above and below it stayed together, and that score mark is surprisingly straight (rather than following the arc of the rim) but it does go suspiciously from one end of the black mart to the other: 

There is also that unexplained green coloured arc running along the lower part of the main block of silicon: 

 

I would love to understand what is going on here if anyone knows.

Edited October 3, 2022 by Slartibartfast

[techyiam]

51 minutes ago, Slartibartfast said:

It was posted to show that the stator had slipped but I just can't see what shows it.

+1

The 3 hall sensors are inserted in between the stator coils, and are wired to the circuit board which is siliconed over. This module is fixed to the stator coil assembly. The 5 hall sensor wires are then run and zip tied to the hub. I also don't see the sensors wires having been pulled, due to supposed relative movement between hub and stator coil assembly. 

[Slartibartfast]

5 hours ago, techyiam said:

... and are wired to the circuit board which is siliconed over.

Oh, I see. There is a whole circuit board under that silicon.

That explains the green line on the lower part, it's just the circuit board beneath showing through.

[supercurio]

This week or next week I will record a comprehensive demonstration of the landing test to put on YouTube.

Since it seems impractically hard to execute for most - everyone agrees on that - I intend to highlight in this video that it would be great to collectively find better methods that we can also identify as effective.

So let's continue brainstorming about that as well as document the examples you found 🧑‍🔬

Edited October 3, 2022 by supercurio