Begode Master 134V 2400WH Suspension

[Rawnei]

1 minute ago, Tawpie said:

True... but there was a reason, and a pretty good one in the eyes of the BG Engineering staff. This sort of change (shall we be brave and call it 'innovation'?) is not something to make without a reasonably good reason. I haven't thought enough about it to venture a guess, but it's either cost or performance.

Yes of course it would be the logical conclusion but it seems like a major change and with any major change things could go wrong also.

[Planemo]

4 hours ago, alcatraz said:

What if we've got five BMS boards, all able to interrupt charging. One top level 4x33.6v on the charge board and four 8x4.2v in the modules.

I can't see any other way around it tbh, and the system would be similar to all the aftermarket add-on packs that were available for the MSX etc, so not exactly unheard of.

[techyiam]

2 hours ago, Planemo said:

I'm really very unimpressed with the finish on the stanchions. They should be bright, unblemished chrome plate or preferably, coated with a low friction/high hardness anodising process like every MTB fork out there. The Master looks like the sort of finish I would expect to see on an $80 Walmart bike.

Well, if this stops you from buying a suspension euc, then I suspect you won't be owning a suspension euc for a very, very long time (I hope you are not waiting for FOX quality in a $3000-ish wheel.  Even e-bikes buyers consider Zoom or RST to be name brand. Oh, and for brakes, the go-to brand is Tektro, right?

At least Kevin didn't find the stanchions to be magnetic.

Let's be real. The only competitor, hopefully coming soon, is the S22. What does the S22 brings to the table that is more enticing, and relates to slider quality. So yeah, you will be waiting, and waiting,  and waiting.

Edited April 25, 2022 by techyiam

[Miko.cz]

On 4/23/2022 at 12:04 PM, The Brahan Seer said:

Anyone know the implication of this....

 

Answered by author in comment:
"Four groups of 33.6V batteries are connected in series with 134.4V, as long as one of the groups has a problem, the motherboard stops working."

[Planemo]

33 minutes ago, techyiam said:

Well, if this stops you from buying a suspension euc, then I suspect you won't be owning a suspension euc for a very, very long time

You may be right.

33 minutes ago, techyiam said:

(I hope you are not waiting for FOX quality in a $3000-ish wheel.

Look, I'm not expecting Fox quality on an EUC just yet. But if I'm getting shitty stanchions/sliders I at least need the stanchion itself to be durable, and most importantly the system itself to be serviceable.

33 minutes ago, techyiam said:

 Even e-bikes buyers consider Zoom or RST to be name brand.

At least even RST come with anodised stanchions, with the sub metal in far better shape than the Master ones. And thats on super-budget £100 forks. I know because I have a set.

33 minutes ago, techyiam said:

Let's be real. The only competitor, hopefully coming soon, is the S22. What does the S22 brings to the table that is more enticing that relates to slider quality. So yeah, you will be waiting, and waiting,  and waiting.

Overall I sense a certain tetchiness in your post. All I'm doing is pointing out a potential problem. And it could be a big problem because if the Master develops any stanchion issues and theres no long term solution, it means you are left with a pair of forks that are only fit for doorstops. If the only solution is a full replacement (fittingly, exactly the situation the guy with the K4 is in) how much are Begode gonna run you for a set? No one knows. I don't want a suspension EUC that might need a full fork replacement every 50 hours, so until theres more info on the fork situation, no I won't be buying.

Everyone else can fill their boots, all I'm doing is pointing out that the finish on the forks looks crap. Something that someone who hasn't spent a long time around suspension may not notice. And if the finish is crap, chances are the internals are crap too, which means poor sealing, leakages and wear. The guy with the K4 can't even service his (even if it were possible) because they are shot to pieces.

I want people to buy the Master because of course I want suspension EUC's to advance. If buyers want to do the long term testing thats totally cool with me, I'm just pointing out something that may be an issue because thats what forums are for.

[alcatraz]

3 hours ago, Planemo said:

I can't see any other way around it tbh, and the system would be similar to all the aftermarket add-on packs that were available for the MSX etc, so not exactly unheard of.

Add-on packs are always paralleled, are they not? 

Also can add-on packs interrupt charging of the original packs. I have a faint memory of you (wasn't it?) making a DIY addon pack for an Msuper. One critisizm I had was that it couldn't interrupt charging. Maybe it could... or?

[Planemo]

2 minutes ago, alcatraz said:

Add-on packs are always paralleled, are they not?

The 84v to 100v conversion for the MSX wasn't...

2 minutes ago, alcatraz said:

Also can add-on packs interrupt charging of the original packs. I have a faint memory of you (wasn't it?) making a DIY addon pack for an Msuper. One critisizm I had was that it couldn't interrupt charging. Maybe it could... or?

...and that leads me onto the above  It wasn't a DIY pack, it was sold by Daniel at EUC Service. You raise a good point though re interrupting charging...I'm not 100% sure but I assume it did, because otherwise it would overcharge the add-on pack or if there was a by-pass fitted in the BMS of the add-on, it would send 100v into the other 84v packs. I'm not entirely sure as I say, but I never had an overcharge situation in any of the packs afaik.

I do have a pic somewhere of the add-on BMS, maybe I will dig it out if I can find it

 

[Planemo]

Just for prosperity of the 'old days'...

 

Edited April 25, 2022 by Planemo

[techyiam]

3 hours ago, Planemo said:

But if I'm getting shitty stanchions/sliders I at least need the stanchion itself to be durable, and most importantly the system itself to be serviceable.

What make you think that Master stanchions are not durable nor serviceable? 

3 hours ago, Planemo said:

At least even RST come with anodised stanchions, with the sub metal in far better shape than the Master ones. And thats on super-budget £100 forks. I know because I have a set.

What are you basing on to say that your RST stanchions are more durable and has sub metal that is in better shape?

 

3 hours ago, Planemo said:

And it could be a big problem because if the Master develops any stanchion issues and theres no long term solution, it means you are left with a pair of forks that are only fit for doorstops. If the only solution is a full replacement (fittingly, exactly the situation the guy with the K4 is in) how much are Begode gonna run you for a set? No one knows. I don't want a suspension EUC that might need a full fork replacement every 50 hours, so until theres more info on the fork situation, no I won't be buying.

Again, what makes you think that there will be stanchion issues with no long term solution?  Are we talking about the Master or the K4?

So far, you have presented only conjectures.

 

Before you come back with more conjectures, do realize the sliders on the Master are NOT subjected to the loading of a conventional front fork (it is not loaded like a cantilever). It does not hold oil, nor any damping circuits, nor does it contain a spring. It is nothing more than an inner tube sliding inside an outer tube, with self lubricating bushings at the ends. And the bushings use solid lubricant. No leaks. Also, because the Master sliders do NOT function as a front fork, there is no bending moments to speak of, and thus, the wear on the stanchions and bushings would be much much lower than on a front fork.

If you want to warn people about potential slider problems, do look at the S20/22 slider design. For starters, it is an open design where the openings of the sliders are part of the wheel well. Lukas at EEVEES has already explained how he was able to unjam the sliders of the S20/22. And damn if I know why they would make the battery box a wearable item, and not the rails on the back plate. Why would you not put the bearing block bushings in the channel of the battery box, and let the bushings and rails wear. 

Oh, don't forget what you worried you to begin with, the durability of the surface finish. On the the S20/22, look at the channels in the battery boxes. Do you you see any metal oxide or other hard surface finish? Or do you only see the natural finish of an extruded aluminium channel?

It is plain to see.

Edited April 25, 2022 by techyiam

[alcatraz]

I think there could be suspension upgrade kits available, even if they come from a third party at high cost.

[Planemo]

54 minutes ago, techyiam said:

So far, you have presented only conjectures.

Before you come back with more conjectures,

And so far you have presented only arseyness, so I'll call it a day. Good luck.

[mrelwood]

 

5 hours ago, Tawpie said:

it's either cost or performance.

One difference is that each cell group now consists of four cells hard wired to each other, instead of just one. With four parallel 134V packs each pack would be 32p1s. I guess the Master design could help keeping individual cells from disrupting the cell balance, since there are three more cells in the group to help keep a bad cell aboard. No idea if that actually helps though.

 

54 minutes ago, techyiam said:

Also, because the Master sliders do NOT function as a front fork, there is no bending moments to speak of, and thus, the wear on the stanchions and bushings would be much much lower than on a front fork.

There definitely is a large bending moment each time you accelerate or brake. And depending on the design, possibly even when you’re standing on the wheel. You can see it easily in a worn V11 suspension sliders, those things are eaten. I have experimented with modifications for the V11 sliding system, and I can tell you, a simple acceleration surely squeezes the sliding parts. Hard. The rotary moment is of course different in the V11 that has the lower and upper sliding guides relatively close to each other, but there are still quite large forces, no matter the exact design.

[alcatraz]

2 hours ago, Planemo said:

Just for prosperity of the 'old days'...

 

Cool. Is this the conversion?

Why are there 5 cells?

[Planemo]

3 minutes ago, alcatraz said:

Cool. Is this the conversion?

Why are there 5 cells?

Theres 12 cells. The 5 are stacked on top of another 7

Yes this is one of the conversion packs. One either side of the wheel. Each pack is 3s4P. The same kit was used for ALL the earlier 1860wh '100v' MSX's, including those supplied by ewheels (Duf had one). Later on (not sure exactly when) parallel kits started coming out for the GW made 100v MSX's, my friend had one to take his stock 100v 1245Wh to 1860Wh.

[fbhb]

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

Also, because the Master sliders do NOT function as a front fork, there is no bending moments to speak of

Also, let's not forget that e-Rides Begode Hero HS arrived with bent suspension sliders, rendering the suspension jammed solid and unusable, so there most definitely are bending moments at play and to my mind backs up the comments @Planemo made on the low quality of the stanchion/slider in his opinion.

The Master and EX20S use the very same slider tube design, which reportedly has been strengthened by increasing the diameter, but still ONLY using with a thinner walled, untreated tube even when compared the 3mm thick tubes used on the S18 (which of course uses 4x sliders, not 2x).

Edited April 25, 2022 by fbhb

[supercurio]

36 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

One difference is that each cell group now consists of four cells hard wired to each other, instead of just one. With four parallel 134V packs each pack would be 32p1s. I guess the Master design could help keeping individual cells from disrupting the cell balance, since there are three more cells in the group to help keep a bad cell aboard. No idea if that actually helps though.

Typo for 32s1p I guess.

I was excited with the idea of 32s1p packs but I agree, if there's 1 lower cell then the whole pack, aka the 32s series gets weaker by the full amount.
And this lonely weaker cell will get the full amount also of extra stress without 1, 2 or 3 parallel cell to reduce the blow by 2x or 3x.

I guess it would work best with a SmartBMS which would allow you to identify 1 weak cell and replace it early, and a full QC check of each cell (IR test at least, full capacity test best) before selecting cells to include in each pack.

 

36 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

There definitely is a large bending moment each time you accelerate or brake. And depending on the design, possibly even when you’re standing on the wheel. You can see it easily in a worn V11 suspension sliders, those things are eaten. I have experimented with modifications for the V11 sliding system, and I can tell you, a simple acceleration surely squeezes the sliding parts. Hard. The rotary moment is of course different in the V11 that has the lower and upper sliding guides relatively close to each other, but there are still quite large forces, no matter the exact design.

Ah yes you're right, I imagined that the moment would only be vertical but no, wheels mostly stay vertical (depending on pedal mode) when accelerating and breaking.

Then each bump will also exert a force towards the rear, like if you go up a curb head on. Especially since the EUC wheels are not that big, or even tiny compared to 29" mountain bikes.

Then every time the wheel falls, or you have a pedal hit, that'll put a lot of stress there as well.

 

(timestamped)
This is my main concern regarding the sliders, how they'll hold up to that.

Edited April 25, 2022 by supercurio

[FrenchUsa]

Begode Master EUC First Impressions Review, could it be the end for Kingsong S22?

 

 

[Rawnei]

18 minutes ago, FrenchUsa said:

Begode Master EUC First Impressions Review, could it be the end for Kingsong S22?

What do your first impression of the master have to do with the KS22? You wrote the same thing in your Hero video, why not just focus on objectivity what you like about the Master instead?

[RagingGrandpa]

Regarding Master's 8s4p battery modules: 

Strengths:

• Simpler cell balancing system: no need to duplicate components for parallel packs (reduces complexity; fewer points of failure)
• More obvious reporting of cell problems: faults will show up as failure-to-activate or failure-to-fully-charge in more obvious ways, than wheels with completely parallel packs. This is important for avoiding use of a faulty battery.
• Avoids module-into-parallel-module discharge: Low voltage in one module (short, cell failure, etc) will not discharge the other modules. Which avoids the problem of a good pack dumping its energy into a failing pack. 
• Individual modules are touch-safe voltages (not >80V), which is better for handling and service.

Drawbacks:

• The EUC cannot operate without all 4 modules present, which limits end-user ability to troubleshoot pack problems. (Perhaps a jumper could be used in place of a suspicious pack? Be very cautious charging this way!)
• Not as easy to re-use in larger and smaller EUC models (can't add just 1 more module for increased range, like Gotway had done before). 
• Each pack will see full system current (unlike 1/2 like RS packs, or 1/3 like EX packs). If the cell interconnects are not sized appropriately, they could fail.

 

On 4/24/2022 at 3:33 PM, chanman said:

Charging in series also seems complicated to do right, not sure how much the BMS can do if things get out of whack.

It's 32s4p, no matter how the pack is assembled. Regarding charging, there is no difference between [4x 8s4p] vs [4x 16s2p] vs [4x 32s1p]. It's always 32 cells in series.

On 4/25/2022 at 2:54 AM, Miko.cz said:

Answered by author in comment:
"Four groups of 33.6V batteries are connected in series with 134.4V, as long as one of the groups has a problem, the motherboard stops working."

Right. And better for it to stop working, than for it to "seem ok" and overheat its cells during use. 

 

Edited July 21, 2022 by RagingGrandpa
someone melted their strips!

[enaon]

I agree with the Strengths, on the Drawbacks I think one point  is missing. 

Up to now when one battery pack had a problematic cell, is was usually when we put it for charge that we got to know about it. In the case of the master, we might get to understand it while riding, the wheel will shutdown if one pack auto turns off to protect one cell group. 

Edited April 25, 2022 by enaon

[techyiam]

16 minutes ago, enaon said:

Up to now when one battery pack had a problematic cell, is was usually when we put it for charge that we got to know about it. In the case of the master, we might get to understand it while riding, the wheel will shutdown if one pack auto turns off to protect one cell group. 

I suspect cells don't usually fail all of a sudden. Isn't it one of the major points of having the packs wired in series? The owners now have to diligently monitor their battery packs, and get them serviced when early warning signs are detected, instead of putting it off for another time, and getting by?

[techyiam]

21 hours ago, FrenchUsa said:

Begode Master EUC First Impressions Review, could it be the end for Kingsong S22?

With yours and Marty's first impressions, and Chance's thoughts on offroad riding going down a black diamond mtb trail, it really starting to sound like Begode has managed to raised the bar with the Master. After the dust have settled, it will be interesting to see which one becomes the popular choice. 

In your next video when you compare the Master to the Hero, can you comment on whether you experienced wobbles at higher speeds during hard braking.

Since you have bought the Sherman Max, Hero, and the Master in quick succession, have you contemplated to also getting the S22, or even the V13 at a later date, and then possibly sell some afterwards? Or are you done for a while?

 

Edited April 26, 2022 by techyiam

[supercurio]

14 minutes ago, techyiam said:

I suspect cells don't usually fail all of a sudden. Isn't it one of the major points of having the packs wired in series? The owners now have to diligently monitor their battery packs, and get them serviced when early warning signs are detected, instead of putting it off for another time, and getting by?

You're right they don't fail out of the blue and any issue can be observed ahead of time.

However to do that it would require that each pack monitor and send alerts to the mainboard, forcing the rider to dismount any time a single cell group of any of the pack goes below 2.75 or 2.5V.
Ideally, you'd have a Smart BMS with logging capability which would show clearly that under load a specific cell group has significantly lower voltage than others, in order to prevent a cutout due to the voltage falling off a cliff during a strong acceleration, which could indeed lead to sudden crashes like @enaon described.

It brings us back to the same questions:

1. Does the Master BMS monitor individual cell group voltage during riding
2. Are all the 4 packs BMS connectes to the mainboard to send alerts, trigger tiltback if any of the cell group goes too low.

That's the questions I would personally want to see answered before buying.

Edited April 25, 2022 by supercurio

[redfoxdude]

7 hours ago, Planemo said:

... if the finish is crap, chances are the internals are crap too, which means poor sealing, leakages and wear.

I don't think there are seals. My understanding is it's just dry sliders on tubes, not a suspension fork with oil and seals.

According to Begode, it does have dry running, graphite-impregnated bronze sleeve bushings, which do appear to be removable. No idea what the wear on the stanchion or bushings will be, though. Hopefully the bushings are an easy-to-find size.

[techyiam]

18 hours ago, supercurio said:

others, in order to prevent a cutout due to the voltage falling off a cliff during a strong acceleration, which could indeed lead to sudden crashes like @enaon described.

The question raised doesn't apply only when cells are faulty. With all healthy cells, can't a rider ride until the wheel force him off or cut out if the necessary safe guards are not implemented? Don't you need the same safe guards?

Edited April 26, 2022 by techyiam