Begode 900Wh Battery Recall Options

[yoos]

45 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

you won't have Gotway performance unless you have Sherman batteries

The battery market has all kinds of 21700 batteries [disclaimer - I am no expert] with very different properties in terms of capacity, max charge/discharge and slightly different chemistry leading different behavior and safety. There are plenty of high-discharge options, (e.g. Molicel P42A 4200mAh 45A, Samsung 40T 4000mAh 35A etc) which can sustain roughly 5 times higher current than LG M50T. However, they have lower capacity and perhaps other drawbacks (availability and price to name some obvious ones). If Gotway is allowing their controllers to draw high current, they should have switched to those batteries -- no need to assemble a 10p juggernaut like the Sherman. Many riders would welcome a slightly more expensive wheel with slightly lower range but reliable and safe performance. Cheating out high performance by silently abusing explosive components is a risky and even criminal behavior. I have seen no solid and direct proof that this is indeed what Gotway has been doing, knowingly or not, but I trust the judgment of members here, especially people with vast data like Jason.

[AtlasP]

On 11/9/2021 at 8:39 AM, supercurio said:

I think that we are past the breaking point, and strict requirements must be imposed to OEMs who are not willing to make it happen by themselves.
Our whole community will suffer from the consequence if more wheels are sold without robust battery safety mechanism in place and thoroughly tested.
Regular people will fear them, they'll be banned from any public transportation, restaurants etc.. It's not unrealistic it might just end EUCs altogether as a trend, as brief as strange.

Just like it was not acceptable to have a Samsung Galaxy Note phone catch fire, it is not acceptable to have EUCs burst in flames.
The smartphone industry took that seriously, and it's essentially a thing of the past. From your report Begode is clearly not, pushing back on industry standard features.

This entire quotation makes it sound like nothing has been done and you're now the first to propose some resolution.

The reality is that eWheels has spent much of the past year working on a permanent, unprecedented resolution--ultimately cutting Begode out of the battery manufacturing process entirely by partnering with a third-party company to produce superior packs (including a superior BMS & cells and adding dedicated fuses & alarms completely independent of the EUC's own electronics) for use inside Begode wheels--and that resolution has already been implemented and launched a month ago. (And this on the back of many prior years of constantly pushing Begode to improve themselves--pushing for upgraded MOSFETs, etc--before finally giving up and realizing that more drastic matters had to be taken to cut them out of the pack manufacturing process altogether.)

Now this isn't Begode improving on their end, but which they've proven some combination of incompetent and/or unwilling to do--and your little proposal isn't going to change that/Begode doesn't give a damn and cannot/will not get better--but it is a distributor taking matters into their own hands to address and resolve. At this point no sane customer should be buying Begode wheels still containing Begode packs from any other distributors, and ultimately we'll see whether those distributors similarly either stop selling Begode wheels or have to implement their own battery replacement solutions.

Edited November 11, 2021 by AtlasP

[Planemo]

1 hour ago, Denny Paul said:

from what ive seen it seems that wheel fires are often due to failing to charge to full on a regular basis.

I don't think I have read of any recent GW/Begode fires where partial charging has been deemed the cause, but I accept that you may know more on this. 

1 hour ago, Denny Paul said:

Or water damaged wheels. Or wheels in crashes with dented/damaged battery packs. Or even a delayed manufacturing defect. And in light of this news, now the possibility of amp draw thats beyond the batteries abilities can supposedly start the chain reaction leading to a fire. 

no one said 'all'

I think we are splitting hairs here. Clearly, water damaged/dented wheels are going to be a ticking time bomb whatever. But whichever way you slice it, I am not aware of any other manufacturers wheel that has self combusted without even having been ridden. Theres not even any I can think of that have combusted after very low miles. In fact, at the very low miles we are talking about, I do not believe that dendrites can even become an issue with such little use.

I do totally agree with you that using the LG50's in a 4P config is asking for trouble (I said this when the Nik first came out) but I can't help feeling that we are missing the real cause of the recent fires. Lets not forget that this is a relatively recent issue, theres plenty of 1800wh Niks out there that have done 1000's of miles without issue. Lets also not forget that a relatively new Monster Pro went up in flames, and given the sheer amount of available power (even using LG's) I am not convinced drawing excessive current was a factor. You are aware how hard you would need to drain the packs on a Monster Pro to induce combustion?

If I had to take a stab at it, my guess is that something changed around a year ago with the source/quality of the cells. But as always, I stand to be educated on it being something completely different

[Paul A]

Gotway/Begode wheels all over the world not sold by eWheels will continue to have these suspect batteries.

These customers would be relying on their distributors and/or Gotway to alert them to the problem even existing......to implement a recall, battery replacement.

Seems like a really bad outcome is waiting to happen somewhere in the world.

 

[supercurio]

56 minutes ago, AtlasP said:

This entire quotation makes it sound like nothing has been done and you're now the first to propose some resolution.

The reality is that eWheels has spent much of the past year working on a permanent resolution--ultimately cutting Begode out of the battery manufacturing process entirely by partnering with a third-party company to produce superior packs (including a superior BMS & cells and adding dedicated fuses & alarms completely independent of the EUC's own electronics) for use inside Begode wheels--and that resolution has already been implemented and launched a month ago. (And this on the back of many prior years of constantly pushing Begode to improve themselves--pushing for upgraded MOSFETs, etc--before finally giving up and realizing that more drastic matters had to be taken to cut them out of the pack manufacturing process altogether.)

Now this isn't Begode improving on their end, but which they've proven some combination of incompetent and/or unwilling to do--and your little proposal isn't going to change that/Begode doesn't give a damn and cannot/will not get better--but it is a distributor taking matters into their own hands to address and resolve. At this point no sane customer should be buying Begode wheels still containing Begode packs from any other distributors, and ultimately we'll see whether those distributors similarly either stop selling Begode wheels or have to implement their own battery replacement solutions.

Ok, sorry if I didn't acknowledge the work done by eWheels clearly enough in my post.
I am both thankful and admirative of the accomplishments so far, and really appreciated that Jason shared openly the process, and agree with all your points here.

eWheels only sells a (seizable) fraction of the wheels out here tho, and is essentially limited to North America, a distributor-driven approach limitation.
None of my Gotway customers friends can get their hands on these improvements.
It seems that more distributors will start selling LiTech packs tho, following eWheel's lead and that's good news.

Please note that I have neither claimed that nothing has been done nor that I'm the first to propose a solution. That would be delusional, especially as a reply to Jason's post detailing the process.
I do have skills and experience to help with some parts like mobile development, wireless protocols, interoperability and will be happy to contribute if suitable. Contact is now established.

Edited November 9, 2021 by supercurio

[FunTech4Real]

3 hours ago, Denny Paul said:

Food for thought, something like this is why I personally think powerpads aren't a great idea. It's just an afterthought way to get more juice out of the wheel, power that wasn't intended to come out when say the manufacterers were making the wheel. The amount that you're allowed to crunch down on the wheel with powerpads probably is akin to carrying around a person thats 400lbs, or whatever is beyond the intended max weight of the rider.

Even still fault still is with the manufacturers on this. There's a several things they could have done instead that would have been way better. They should know that a small percent of people will use what they buy to the max possible, and should have added a hard upper limit somewhere.

My RS19 that arrived in June came with Gotway power pads. They won't let you get quite as much power as Clark pads, but you can still get real power out of the wheel with the included pads. The S20 also comes with pretty extensive pads. 

[mrelwood]

4 hours ago, Denny Paul said:

Food for thought, something like this is why I personally think powerpads aren't a great idea. It's just an afterthought way to get more juice out of the wheel, power that wasn't intended to come out when say the manufacterers were making the wheel.

Pads clearly weren’t playing a part with the wheels that ignited when new. Furthermore, the current wheels exceed even all the best specs from just four years ago by 2x - 4x, including speed. 6 years ago, by 3x - 6x, etc. One could even say that EUCs weren’t originally designed to go faster than 15km/h, or to have more than 176Wh of battery in one unit…

Nah, GW has always been the one to push the speed, power, and battery capacity of EUCs. And they definitely haven’t hinted against being proud of their mantle.

Using the LG 50’s in a 4P configuration does seem like a clear enough oversight on their part, one in a long list of oversights. But even that doesn’t seem to be the fundamental reason for the fires.

 And even if it were, bursting violently into flames is not a reasonable reaction from a wheel that has been ridden too hard. GW must do something to prevent future fires, no matter what the reason is.

 My car wouldn’t explode even if I slammed the gas pedal all the way every time I drove. Neither would my brother’s new VW ID-4. And neither will any EUC that I’ll ever buy.

[AtlasP]

4 hours ago, Denny Paul said:

Food for thought, something like this is why I personally think powerpads aren't a great idea. It's just an afterthought way to get more juice out of the wheel, power that wasn't intended to come out when say the manufacterers were making the wheel. The amount that you're allowed to crunch down on the wheel with powerpads probably is akin to carrying around a person thats 400lbs, or whatever is beyond the intended max weight of the rider.

Even still fault still is with the manufacturers on this. There's a several things they could have done instead that would have been way better. They should know that a small percent of people will use what they buy to the max possible, and should have added a hard upper limit somewhere.

While the enthusiasts aren't going to like it, I do think this is a very plausible contributor in conjunction with other faults being discussed. (So not saying power pads are the singular or even primary cause, but rather the use of such pads certainly compounds the aforementioned issues with questionable cell quality/vetting, weak strips connecting cells, poor BMS, etc, etc.) Yes, obviously the electronics shouldn't *allow* such things to be possible, but the bottom line is that current Begode electronics do not prevent it while simultaneously such pads aid users in greatly exacerbating the problem.

[Kekafuch]

5 hours ago, AtlasP said:

This entire quotation makes it sound like nothing has been done and you're now the first to propose some resolution.

The reality is that eWheels has spent much of the past year working on a permanent resolution--ultimately cutting Begode out of the battery manufacturing process entirely by partnering with a third-party company to produce superior packs (including a superior BMS & cells and adding dedicated fuses & alarms completely independent of the EUC's own electronics) for use inside Begode wheels--and that resolution has already been implemented and launched a month ago. (And this on the back of many prior years of constantly pushing Begode to improve themselves--pushing for upgraded MOSFETs, etc--before finally giving up and realizing that more drastic matters had to be taken to cut them out of the pack manufacturing process altogether.)

Now this isn't Begode improving on their end, but which they've proven some combination of incompetent and/or unwilling to do--and your little proposal isn't going to change that/Begode doesn't give a damn and cannot/will not get better--but it is a distributor taking matters into their own hands to address and resolve. At this point no sane customer should be buying Begode wheels still containing Begode packs from any other distributors, and ultimately we'll see whether those distributors similarly either stop selling Begode wheels or have to implement their own battery replacement solutions.

Aren’t Gotway control boards the only company that allows full operation without a proprietary connection to the batteries BMS? Gotway definitely sold naked batteryless EUC on AliExpress at one point… I think they entertained selling EUC parts without batteries. 
 

If it’s true that GotWay supports a more open design platform that welcomes DIY and not being tied to a BMS, I think the community should recognize that as a user benefit. 
 

I am curious myself about the proprietary connections of a controller and BMS. If anyone can clarify.

 

 

 

[Patrick Robert]

Anyone else noticed that the S20 will have the LG M50T, in a 4 pack configuration? I'm sure that's partly why it will come with a vastly improved BMS and other safeguards, but performance wheel it won't be, stuck at 29.2A. 

Glad I ended up going with the Abrams. Is LeaperKim the only manufacturer avoiding LG and opting instead for high discharge cells? They knew. 

[mrelwood]

1 hour ago, Patrick Robert said:

Is LeaperKim the only manufacturer avoiding LG and opting instead for high discharge cells?

I think Inmotion switched to Samsung at some point for the V11. Never thought much about it since manufacturers sometimes change the model due to availability etc. But maybe they had also come up with 1+1=2?

[supercurio]

2 hours ago, Kekafuch said:

Aren’t Gotway control boards the only company that allows full operation without a proprietary connection to the batteries BMS? Gotway definitely sold naked batteryless EUC on AliExpress at one point… I think they entertained selling EUC parts without batteries. 
 

If it’s true that GotWay supports a more open design platform that welcomes DIY and not being tied to a BMS, I think the community should recognize that as a user benefit. 
 

I am curious myself about the proprietary connections of a controller and BMS. If anyone can clarify.

It's a good point.

At the same time, connection to the BMS might simply be a requirement on high power / high capacity EUCs to alert the user gracefully in case of battery faults and it's missing there for now.

Like the "Please Repair" voice on Inmotion wheels. Adam from Wrong Way mentions it to highlight both its silliness and importance.

What about having communication between the BMS and mainboard to avoid serious issues being unnoticed and sometimes turning into a disaster, but following a well described, reasonable communication protocol.

And for the DIY case, something that can easily be implemented on an Arduino type MCU, upgrading DIY packs to be smarter and safer as well.

Edited November 10, 2021 by supercurio

[Paul A]

Is Gotway actually doing anything themselves to fix their own problems?

[Bumblebees]

9 minutes ago, Paul A said:

Is Gotway actually doing anything themselves to fix their own problems

Doesn't look like it.

[Bizra6ot]

14 hours ago, Bizra6ot said:

What about the samsung 48x begode packs like in Ex.n, is it better or worse than the lg?

https://ecodrift.ru/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/Monokoleso-Begode-EX-N-10.jpg

 

I find this about the 48x  https://budgetlightforum.com/node/73701

On some sellers website i find 9.6A or 15A continious, and 35A pulse, if somebody here knows more about these?

[mike_bike_kite]

3 hours ago, Paul A said:

Is Gotway actually doing anything themselves to fix their own problems?

I guess if you refer to them as Gotway then they probably won't. Probably better to ask Begode if they're going to fix this. 

I get a bit confused when we talk about possible causes. I can see how power pads cause more drain (and probably stress) on the battery but it doesn't explain why those new wheels in the container ship burnt up. A similar argument can be said for riders demanding too much power from these wheels. I'll admit I didn't understand why having a 4P arrangement on LT50T cells might be bad but the power packs were separated into 900Wh packs at the ewheels fire. It would be nice to know what is specifically different on Begode wheels that makes them more likely to catch fire.

[Paul A]

Will delete if following is off topic.

________________

 

https://uspirg.org/news/usp/hoverboard-tragedy-results-three-deaths

APRIL 4, 2017

“Last month, a fatal accident occurred at a Harrisburg, PA home when a hoverboard that was charging apparently overheated and caused a fire, tragically killing a 3-year-old girl just hours after the fire. While the incident is still currently under investigation, the fire also resulted in two other deaths, the 10-year old sister of the child..."

“This would be the first reported case of a fatal fire caused by hoverboards, which were the subject of one of the most well-known recalls by the Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) over the past year, with over 500,000 units recalled in July 2016."

According to the CPSC, there have been at least 99 incidents reports of the battery packs in hoverboards overheating, sparking, smoking, catching fire, or exploding.

_________________

Legality of hoverboards seem to vary in the US.

The deaths of two children didn't seem to have caused an out right blanket ban on hoverboards.

[FunTech4Real]

8 hours ago, Patrick Robert said:

Anyone else noticed that the S20 will have the LG M50T, in a 4 pack configuration? I'm sure that's partly why it will come with a vastly improved BMS and other safeguards, but performance wheel it won't be, stuck at 29.2A. 

Glad I ended up going with the Abrams. Is LeaperKim the only manufacturer avoiding LG and opting instead for high discharge cells? They knew. 

The S20 has 120 cells vs the 96 on the RS19 and it runs at a higher voltage. The S20 batteries have the ability to provide more torque than the RS19 HT while also providing a higher top speed due to the increased voltage. I'm starting to get annoyed about how many people are misunderstanding the cause of the problem. There is nothing wrong with LG M50T cells, the problem is how gotway is using the cells. There are other cells that are better for EUC purposes, but the LG M50T cells can provide extreme performance, as long as you have enough of them (and don't push them beyond the manufacturer's specifications)

[Planemo]

2 hours ago, sevin7 said:

I'm starting to get annoyed about how many people are misunderstanding the cause of the problem.

Theres no need to get annoyed with people wanting to delve further into the cause of individual fires and throwing up ideas that are plausible. Thats what forums are for.

2 hours ago, sevin7 said:

There is nothing wrong with LG M50T cells

Assuming they are genuine, QC'd and new I presume...? Do you know for a fact that all the cells ever used by Begode fit this description? Because I sure as hell don't, and I doubt anyone else except Begode does either.

2 hours ago, sevin7 said:

(and don't push them beyond the manufacturer's specifications)

The brand spanking new wheels that caught fire weren't pushed. I suspect the nearly new ones weren't either.

As an ex investigator old habits die hard, and disregarding some evidence to come to an easy conclusion based on very little hard evidence isn't my idea of solving anything.

I am in agreement with ALL the points raised (including yours) as to what can cause a wheel to catch fire. All I am saying is, I don't believe they are the cause of ALL fires, and certainly not the most recent ones. Something else is involved other than hard riding/damage/charging issues. This is abundantly clear given the examples that have caught fire and don't fit into the 'usual' causes. People are free to disregard these cases if they wish. I'm not.

[RagingGrandpa]

As we scrutinize cells, it will be important to keep the product names straight. There are 3 LG cell models being conflated- they are not the same.

[Paul A]

Fire in shipping container for eWheels.

Fire destroying eWheels service center.

Is there the possibility of fire destroying eWheel's main distribution facility?

 

Two homes destroyed in Stockholm.

Other recent Begode fires.

No worldwide recall by Begode.

[FunTech4Real]

5 hours ago, Planemo said:

Theres no need to get annoyed with people wanting to delve further into the cause of individual fires and throwing up ideas that are plausible. Thats what forums are for.

The part that is annoying me is people going on and on about 'LG cells are bad'. LG makes top of the line batteries on par with any other manufacturer. Even their M50T are excellent cells and can be used effectively in a EUC. I've yet to see a S18 go up in flames and it uses a small amount M50T cells; the S18 controller ensures it doesn't drain the cells excessively. 

People are hearing that the solution is new batteries that are not made by LG and then jumping to false conclusions that have unfortunately been repeated heavily by WrongWay (I've heard Adam say something along the lines of 'LG cells are bad' at least 3 times in separate videos; Adam is great but I wish he wouldn't say incorrect information). 

False conclusions:
- LG cells are bad

- 21700 cells are bad

- LG M50T cells are bad
 

Accurate conclusions:

- Gotway could fix the problem with the RS19 by limiting the power that controller can draw from the batteries. This might only require software, but it might require hardware. I'm not certain, as I've heard that Gotway wheels don't have the proper electronics to measure the amount of power they are actually using. This would only fix new RS19's that have not already been over stressed. Doing this would slightly reduce the maximum power that the RS19 can put out. However, there have been many Gotway fires that cannot be explained by over discharging cells, so this solution would not prevent many of the Gotway fires that already happened and could happen in the future for unknown reasons. 

- Gotway rushes out poorly engineered products with little regard to safety. The entire design of the RS19 and similar wheels (MSX, MSP) are fundamentally flawed because they are using cells that cannot provide the power that is needed for their controller and motor. One of the first things to consider when making an EUC is how much power it will have, which is limited by the batteries, so the next choice is how many batteries and what type. Gotway likely did some very light testing and realized they could discharge the LG M50T cells far more rapidly than what LG specifies with seemingly no negative impact (because it can take a long time for the cells to finally show the impact and explode) and then decided to use this to make more powerful wheels for less money.

- The new Gotway Hero uses the same battery packs as the RS19 and Gotway is claiming its even more powerful! This is madness, they are either straight up lying about it being more powerful, or they are actually sucking more power from their already dangerously overstressed batteries (or you could claim they made the controller or motor more efficient, but I seriously doubt that). 


I am also not convinced that pushing the cells too hard is the primary cause of fires. It might be one cause, and perhaps the majority, but there are so many other Gotway's that have gone up in flames that couldn't have been from pushing cells too hard (including quite a few Monster wheels).

Edited November 10, 2021 by sevin7

[Tawpie]

32 minutes ago, sevin7 said:

poorly engineered products with little regard to safety

I probably should be this harsh on them but I'm not... I think of Begode more along the lines of a scene from The Hunt for Red October where the Captain asks the Chief Engineer if it is possible to push the reactor to 110%. The answer: "Possible, but not advised". They went to 110% and got to where they needed to be. In time.

Raw performance at a tolerable price point is Begode's bread and butter, without those attributes I'm not certain they'd sell many wheels at all. They sort of have to allow 110%.

Edited November 10, 2021 by Tawpie

[mike_bike_kite]

@RagingGrandpa Is unk your new global standard for unknown?

Edited November 10, 2021 by mike_bike_kite

[Planemo]

39 minutes ago, sevin7 said:

The part that is annoying me is people going on and on about 'LG cells are bad'.

I hear what you are saying but the fact is theres more than a few wheels using them that have gone up in flames. Wheels that haven't been pushed. So if the wheel hasn't been pushed, hasn't been damaged, hasn't been overly charged/discharged and in some cases hasn't even been ridden then people are unsurprisingly going to be looking at the cells. Like you, I feel this is somewhat unjustified but it is what it is. As I say, I suspect an issue with the provenance of the cells in the last year which isn't really LG's fault but they are getting hammered for it, no thanks to Begode and Adam.

39 minutes ago, sevin7 said:

People are hearing that the solution is new batteries that are not made by LG

Well to some extent that statement is correct because your argument is based on the fact that the issues are as a result of the current that Begode draws through it's motherboard. Unless new firmware can be flashed or new boards purchased, the replacement of the packs with a higher potential current output is the only remaining option is it not?

39 minutes ago, sevin7 said:

I am also not convinced that pushing the cells too hard is the primary cause of fires. It might be one cause, and perhaps the majority, but there are so many other Gotway's that have gone up in flames that couldn't have been from pushing cells too hard (including quite a few Monster wheels).

I am glad you agree, and this has been my point from the beginning.