That Guy Posted November 10, 2021 Share Posted November 10, 2021 My understanding is that Commander has a fundamental design flaw. It doesn't look like it will be easy to fix without a major redesign, which means the next batch may be a completely new machine? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rawnei Posted November 11, 2021 Share Posted November 11, 2021 9 hours ago, That Guy said: My understanding is that Commander has a fundamental design flaw. Would you care to elaborate what you mean so we don't have to guess? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That Guy Posted November 11, 2021 Share Posted November 11, 2021 27 minutes ago, Rawnei said: Would you care to elaborate what you mean so we don't have to guess? Of course. I think the engineers who designed the Extreme Bull Commander didn’t provide for cooling. It is not just inadequate or weak or unreliable - it is just non-existent. It was obvious for people who had the first look inside. It was confirmed in the first trials. The wheel is running hot and it is simply because the engineers sadly didn’t have a clue it was needed. And does bother me when a new company tries to build something (not really new or innovative any more) with a fundamental lack of understanding. They will need to lift the top part by up to an inch and let more air flow under the electronics compartment to rectify the problem. And then it will be a different wheel all together. Just my understanding. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bizra6ot Posted November 11, 2021 Share Posted November 11, 2021 They just need to implement the Extrembull K4 liquid cooled mod and it should be fine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul A Posted November 11, 2021 Share Posted November 11, 2021 EB creates a cavity with a slot that a sealed ice block slides into next to the heat sink.... Would have thought engineers should be competent enough to have considered cooling electronics. Bit difficult to have confidence in the quality, safety, reliability etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post supercurio Posted November 11, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted November 11, 2021 3 hours ago, That Guy said: Of course. I think the engineers who designed the Extreme Bull Commander didn’t provide for cooling. It is not just inadequate or weak or unreliable - it is just non-existent. It was obvious for people who had the first look inside. It was confirmed in the first trials. The wheel is running hot and it is simply because the engineers sadly didn’t have a clue it was needed. And does bother me when a new company tries to build something (not really new or innovative any more) with a fundamental lack of understanding. They will need to lift the top part by up to an inch and let more air flow under the electronics compartment to rectify the problem. And then it will be a different wheel all together. Just my understanding. Agree with your assessment. Everything indicates that the OEM: Didn't take cooling in consideration in the initial design: there's no way it'll work. Didn't test, iterate, fix, repeat Still increased the power rating compared to previous wheels significantly Instead, they simply started production with complete disregard of what would happen to these wheels and the people riding them: which is as we already know early board failures. Some of them are bound to result in harmful crashes and hospitalisation. I mean... Just don't buy it I guess? Everyone. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul A Posted November 11, 2021 Share Posted November 11, 2021 Beginning to suspect maybe there are no engineers at Begode. Reading through the various posts and threads, the volume of observations pointing out deficiencies, some that seem so basic and obvious....perhaps the engineers/competent personnel left with the formation of Veteran. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supercurio Posted November 11, 2021 Share Posted November 11, 2021 18 minutes ago, Paul A said: Beginning to suspect maybe there are no engineers at Begode. Reading through the various posts and threads, the volume of observations pointing out deficiencies, some that seem so basic and obvious....perhaps the engineers/competent personnel left with the formation of Veteran. While it is pure speculation, from the direction and evolution we can observe on both manufacturer it seems plausible, when comparing what Leaperkim came up with the Abrams and Begode with the Extreme Bull. The Hero might be an outlier disproving this theory tho. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul A Posted November 11, 2021 Share Posted November 11, 2021 Yes, just speculation. Just disturbing that eWheels replacement and safety improvements seem to be quite significant....and that others around the world are going to be left exposed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eucVibes Posted November 12, 2021 Share Posted November 12, 2021 Check out the Splyce Guard, just what the Commander needed ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidB Posted November 12, 2021 Share Posted November 12, 2021 (edited) Supercurio said "... when comparing what Leaperkim came up with the Abrams " Looking through Wrongway's video of the Reccio Wheel last summer I noted Adam said Reccio was in talks with a Chinese company about producing it. It is interesting that LeaperKim later release a wheel that has a diverging tube chassis joined at the bottom by a solid steel bar to which the motor is attached with motor power wires easily detachable external of the control box, easily removable batteries and plug and play headlight etc. All of these features that the Reccio wheel had. Maybe the guys at LeaperKim just saw Rober Ace's video of the Reccio wheel and said "Hey, that's not a bad idea, let's see what we can do" But saying what Leaperkim came up with may be giving them more credit than they deserve...... The Reccio looked like a light, fun, off-road wheel... The Abrams is more of a Juggernaut. Edited November 12, 2021 by DavidB addition 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidB Posted November 12, 2021 Share Posted November 12, 2021 6 hours ago, eucVibes said: Check out the Splyce Guard, just what the Commander needed ! What another 10% extra weight ? Small rubber bumpers on the corners would be lighter and more elegant. I'd go the other way, swap out the 7.3A 21700 for some 15A 18650. Trading the 3600Wh for ~2400Wh and 5kg less weight and thinner side panels. I think EB should give customers the option on batteries. Not just size but also quality. I'm sure there are many non American customers who would like to have the eWheels LiTech battery pack. Although that may be exclusive to Jason and if GW/EB offered it to others they may get offside with their largest distributor. Norwegians are not happy I hear with their Chinese Teslas and their LFP batteries which don't handle the cold very well whereas Australians will feel a lot more comfortable (safe) in their Chinese LFP Teslas this summer sitting in a traffic jam on a 43 degree C day over 60 degree tarmac. Horses for courses Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That Guy Posted November 12, 2021 Share Posted November 12, 2021 17 minutes ago, DavidB said: Looking through Wrongway's video of the Reccio Wheel last summer I noted Adam said Reccio was in talks with a Chinese company about producing it. Oh, good pick! I did have an impression I have seen the Abrams’ exoskeleton concept once before in some video from some European place. Well, good on LeaperKim if it’s true and they indeed managed to build it from the idea up! :-) (We are yet to see, of course, if Abrams as good as it looks, but just by the look it is an impressive piece.) Meanwhile didn’t Extreme Bull had Sherman for at least a year to learn? Ok, they did manage to beat Sherman in torque, which is good but not enough. I would expect to see much more than that. I was quite excited about Commander at first and thought I wouldn’t mind ordering it. But from what I am learning so far - sadly no, can’t risk it… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidB Posted November 12, 2021 Share Posted November 12, 2021 I actually don't mind them copying off each other if it improves the product. It may grate a bit if you have your idea ripped off but it is inevitable really if it is a good one and you can't afford a good lawyer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tawpie Posted November 12, 2021 Share Posted November 12, 2021 8 hours ago, DavidB said: The Abrams is more of a Juggernaut just like its namesake! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidB Posted November 15, 2021 Share Posted November 15, 2021 On 11/13/2021 at 12:37 AM, div said: Veteran introduced the whole roll bar / dual handle concept in the first place though, all Reccio did was to taper the shape to expose more of the tyre. To me Veteran is simply continuing what they started with the Sherman. No, Veteran added a roll cage to a plastic shell. It still basically a plastic shell bolted to the pedal hangers. Reccio went the next step and used metal tube and steel cross bar as the chassis. I'm sure he got inspiration from the Veteran though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post yoos Posted December 5, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted December 5, 2021 (edited) Here's a fresh teardown of the Commander HS by ecodrift Long story short: it's a Begode wheel through and through: standard C30 begode motor, the current begode controller and Begode 900Wh LG M50LT packs. Questionable design solutions and poor QC. The controller died during a photoshoot, well before teardown. There is a dangerous leftover soldering debris almost shorting two FETs. Waterproofing of the batteries is flawed (hole in one of the wraps and a general design flaw: wires enter from above and have fiberglass sleeving. Water can enter through the sleeving.) Some other questionable parts are bad cooling setup (already fixed by Marty iirc), insufficient (just one spot) soldering at the axle, insufficient soldering at the junction between phase wires and board; all wires come into the motor through the axle from one side, hence the hole in the axle is rather wide and the axle strength might be compromised. Edit: and here's the video Edited December 5, 2021 by yoos 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RagingGrandpa Posted December 5, 2021 Share Posted December 5, 2021 (edited) Good to see the guts. I've been asking myself: "Would I recommend Commander HT to a friend who owns a Sherman, likes to ride 70mi+ distances on flat pavement, doesn't exceed 35mph, and wants more torque?" A rather specific type of rider, I realize. From the teardown, the only new-wheel unacceptable thing I see is: pedals without griptape or functional studs. Annoying, but easy to swap or mod. As widely reported, cooling isn't great... but for non-mountainous terrain and the C38 HT model, it's enough. So I suppose the answer is 'Yes' for the HT model? Wish there was more to get excited about here. C30 HS, on the other hand, is just a terrible idea for a wheel with so little cooling. If you're looking to sustain speeds that are too fast for the HT motor, the HS model will overheat. Why bother. Interesting that there hasn't been a successful 3600wh HS wheel yet. No stock wheel can take a 200lb rider further than Sherman, faster than Sherman. .02 3 hours ago, yoos said: teardown of the Commander by ecodrift Edited December 5, 2021 by RagingGrandpa 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bumblebees Posted December 5, 2021 Share Posted December 5, 2021 2 hours ago, RagingGrandpa said: As widely reported, cooling isn't great... but for non-mountainous terrain and the C38 HT model, it's enough. I have the HT model and hit mountainous terrain regularly without any overheating. The wheel temperature is usually around 44-51 riding up and down inclines. Only issue I have with the wheel is the slippery pedals and handle screws which tend to come undone from frequent use. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted December 6, 2021 Share Posted December 6, 2021 Oh boy. Looks like it is a nice wheel in theory, but not in practice. 4 hours ago, yoos said: LG M50LT Are these a fire danger, or different from the M50T that caused the fires? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RagingGrandpa Posted December 6, 2021 Share Posted December 6, 2021 (edited) Well, let's be frank about what we know 12 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said: Are these a fire danger Yes, all Nickel-Cobalt Lithium Ion cells are a hazard, because they can reach a runaway temperature at which they will burn unstoppably until their contents are consumed. 12 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said: different from the M50T Yes, this is different from the M50T. M50LT is a newer-design 21700 LG cell. 12 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said: that caused the fires We don't know what caused the previous Gotway pack fires. Evidence of root cause has not been found yet. But I understand your point... M50T was involved in most of them. Let's monitor the new M50LT (and 48X and 50E and P42A) wheels as their volumes increase over time, hoping to see lower incidence rate. Edited December 6, 2021 by RagingGrandpa 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bracky72 Posted December 6, 2021 Share Posted December 6, 2021 Jason specifically states the M50LT 900 wh is the battery pack being recalled. It is the suspect cell. Not the M50T. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RagingGrandpa Posted December 6, 2021 Share Posted December 6, 2021 (edited) 32 minutes ago, bracky72 said: Jason specifically states the M50LT It was a misunderstanding at the time of his post. The issue at hand is the 900wh pack type introduced in early 2020 with 100V Nikola and MSuper Pro. Those suspicious cells are branded LG and start with M... but they're not the same as M50LT which started shipping just recently in late 2021 (with no reported fires yet). 32 minutes ago, bracky72 said: the battery pack being recalled There is no recall yet. Perhaps one will come... On 11/10/2021 at 10:43 AM, RagingGrandpa said: As we scrutinize cells, it will be important to keep the product names straight. There are 3 LG cell models being conflated- they are not the same. Edited December 6, 2021 by RagingGrandpa 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bracky72 Posted December 6, 2021 Share Posted December 6, 2021 So you are saying the information in this thread is incorrect? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post yoos Posted December 6, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted December 6, 2021 8 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said: Are these a fire danger, or different from the M50T that caused the fires? At least there are 4 such packs vs 2 packs in the Nik and RS and 3 packs in the Ex.N and Nik 2700Wh (mostly known as Nik AR in the US). This should reduce the risk of abuse due to excessive current draw, but increase the risk of other problems that prompted the recall So roughly speaking the Commander is an "EX.N AR": an EX.N with extra battery pack and diguised by a different shell and logo. Of course, the controller also has different firmware but otherwise it's mostly cosmetic changes and rebranding. At the same time the EX.N is already an impressive beast performance-wise, so the Commander should be king performance-wise (with all the typical strengths and weaknesses of the Gotway/Begode wheel dynasty). 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.