Kingsong S20/S22 (Confirmed)

[yoos]

6 hours ago, techyiam said:

Perhaps Kingsong needs to do a "Begode EX". Drop the sucker, like a hot potato. 

To my understanding, the EX was a generally poor design (unconvincing suspension, superhigh weight and bulk, overall strange concoction of components) while the S22 is good overall design, but poor implementation, poor QC. Fix QC -- motor slippage, sliders and other things, rename it to S23 and everything will be alright

 

[Paul g]

12 minutes ago, yoos said:

To my understanding, the EX was a generally poor design (unconvincing suspension, superhigh weight and bulk, overall strange concoction of components) while the S22 is good overall design, but poor implementation, poor QC. Fix QC -- motor slippage, sliders and other things, rename it to S23 and everything will be alright

 

Or just rename it and keep the tradition.

[Forwardnbak]

I think we should all just go back to NY and let it keep burning

[Mayhem]

1 hour ago, yoos said:

To my understanding, the EX was a generally poor design (unconvincing suspension, superhigh weight and bulk, overall strange concoction of components) while the S22 is good overall design, but poor implementation, poor QC. Fix QC -- motor slippage, sliders and other things, rename it to S23 and everything will be alright

 

Ex Weight was slightly heavier (+5lbs) then the s20 And the wheel that replaced the ex was even heavier. So I wouldn’t call the original ex super high weight when we have 120lb wheels coming out lol. It suspension was just slight dampening Which was perfect for street riding where you want to mitigate the bumps but still feel the road. But people hear suspension and immediately think off road which isn’t the best assumption to make.

imo the main issue was that is only did 38mph Vs the exn (+45mph) Which is basically the same wheel minus suspension. More people would have given it a chance if it was faster. A lot of people said if the exn had the ex suspension it would have been a killer combo but it never came to be. 
 

Iirc there was also no way to check how much psi the suspension was filled to unless you connected the pump to it which would then release all the pressure smh. So it was a bit awkward. 

Edited September 3, 2022 by Mayhem

[The Brahan Seer]

8 hours ago, techyiam said:

And come out with a more exciting wheel real soon to draw the attention away from the S22.

Isn't there an S18 V2 coming out this month which is lighter?

[techyiam]

3 hours ago, The Brahan Seer said:

Isn't there an S18 V2 coming out this month which is lighter?

That would be. Where did you hear this from?

[yoos]

On 9/3/2022 at 8:53 PM, techyiam said:

That would be. Where did you hear this from?

From my posts I guess. Ecodrift will receive the S18v2 in September and they have a new hollow motor. The lighter weight is a rumor: some of the ecodrift techs mentioned the new motor should be lighter but that was about a year ago (iirc they even had received the new motor prototypes but didn't report on them)

UPDATE: they now did report on them (they had a non-disclosure agreement with KS and had to wait for the official launch of the v2) and the v2 is indeed ~1kg lighter among other improvements. 

 

Edited September 10, 2022 by yoos

[techyiam]

5 minutes ago, yoos said:

From my posts I guess. Ecodrift will receive the S18v2 in September and they have a new hollow motor. The lighter weight is a rumor: some of the ecodrift techs mentioned the new motor should be lighter but that was about a year ago (iirc they even had received the new motor prototypes but didn't report on them)

Thanks.

The hollow bore motor is a nice update. If only they could update the electrics to 100V, 4P, high discharge in a S18 Pro version. Maybe even refine the sliders a bit too.

 

[The Brahan Seer]

1 hour ago, yoos said:

From my posts I guess.

Thank god you chimed in. I couldn't for the life of me remember where I had heard it!  Good call!

[Tawpie]

On 8/9/2022 at 10:41 AM, Tawpie said:

Me too... but I squinted reallllllly hard and pushed the pay-now button. Here's my thought process.

• 9 out of 10 wheels don't seem to be blowing their boards, and the ones that do seem to be doing it at low speeds so perhaps I won't skid as far
• I don't think they'll do anything meaningful to improve the suspension cleanliness/stickshun between now and whenever, routine maintenance is just going to be necessary
• No reports of a smashed front handle or kickstand foot yet
• I have a spring in hand that should work for my weight
• Two evenings ago I was out toodling around on the MTen and an S22 blasted by… envy welled up in my throat
• eWheels is staying in the game, so I have solid dealer support
• I've waited a year… T4 is uber tempting but it's batch1 too, S16 might be the cat's meow but that's probably 2024. Master is just not for me. So if I don't take this, it might be a very long time indeed. And I'm already too old for this.
• The envy thing. Did I mention that? (this is not a 'need', it's a want... and I want my oompaloompa and I want it NOW)

It's almost a month later and it broke my heart, but I cancelled my pre order today. I can still live with all of the things I mentioned last month, but...

It's September, where I ride trails the snow starts to fly in late October—so the off road season is rapidly drawing to a close. Because of a previously planned trip (any riders in PDX, I'm looking for suggestions on where to ride!!!) I couldn't take delivery of my wheel until nearly the end of September so by the time I fiddled around with the wheel and got enough confidence in it (and my ability to ride it!), I'm into snow season.

I still ride all winter, but the rides are considerably shorter because it's too cold—I don't need a very big battery. The S22 is far too heavy to take on the fat bike snow trails anyway so it'd be relegated to city riding and as it is my 16X and S18 do just fine for the reduced needs of snow/rain/eternal darkness season…

Anyway, by the time the weather will permit returning to dirt and distance riding KS will be on batch 3? Maybe by then it'll be ready enough for me.

I still think S22 is an amazing accomplishment. KS pushed very hard in just about every possible direction at the same time… remember this wheel is 70 kph fast, has the BMS we've been whining for, has redundant wheel position sensors, very promising suspension design, easy to change tires, adequately protected from the elements, head turning looks — for the most part they executed pretty well. They certainly whiffed on the sliders but their design allows for inexpensive improvements. The BMS firmware is still borked, but it's firmware. Motherboard infant mortality is too high, but those that make it past the 1-2k km mark seem to be no worse than other wheels.

I can accept literally everything except the motor problem. I highly doubt it'd ever affect me—I ride like Marty, have zero interest in finding out if I can skip a magnet, don't weigh but a pittance, and don't push my wheels anywhere near their limits. But I would always worry about the motor. And a motor recall, if it should happen (unlikely, I bet it would be date code limited if it happened), would put me in the same sad state as the early V12 HS owners—potentially months with a shiny new bauble parked in the wheelhouse, mocking me because it can't be safely ridden.

Hopefully by spring there will be enough history to say the motor issue is truly solved, and maybe by then they'll have gen2 sliders and the BMS will be sorted.

I still want my oompaloompa. I'm just going to have to wait.

 

Edited September 4, 2022 by Tawpie

[Rawnei]

3 hours ago, Tawpie said:

It's almost a month later and it broke my heart, but I cancelled my pre order today. I can still live with all of the things I mentioned last month, but...

It's September, where I ride trails the snow starts to fly in late October—so the off road season is rapidly drawing to a close. Because of a previously planned trip (any riders in PDX, I'm looking for suggestions on where to ride!!!) I couldn't take delivery of my wheel until nearly the end of September so by the time I fiddled around with the wheel and got enough confidence in it (and my ability to ride it!), I'm into snow season.

I still ride all winter, but the rides are considerably shorter because it's too cold—I don't need a very big battery. The S22 is far too heavy to take on the fat bike snow trails anyway so it'd be relegated to city riding and as it is my 16X and S18 do just fine for the reduced needs of snow/rain/eternal darkness season…

Anyway, by the time the weather will permit returning to dirt and distance riding KS will be on batch 3? Maybe by then it'll be ready enough for me.

I still think S22 is an amazing accomplishment. KS pushed very hard in just about every possible direction at the same time… remember this wheel is 70 kph fast, has the BMS we've been whining for, has redundant wheel position sensors, very promising suspension design, easy to change tires, adequately protected from the elements, head turning looks — for the most part they executed pretty well. They certainly whiffed on the sliders but their design allows for inexpensive improvements. The BMS firmware is still borked, but it's firmware. Motherboard infant mortality is too high, but those that make it past the 1-2k km mark seem to be no worse than other wheels.

I can accept literally everything except the motor problem. I highly doubt it'd ever affect me—I ride like Marty, have zero interest in finding out if I can skip a magnet, don't weigh but a pittance, and don't push my wheels anywhere near their limits. But I would always worry about the motor. And a motor recall, if it should happen (unlikely, I bet it would be date code limited if it happened), would put me in the same sad state as the early V12 HS owners—potentially months with a shiny new bauble parked in the wheelhouse, mocking me because it can't be safely ridden.

Hopefully by spring there will be enough history to say the motor issue is truly solved, and maybe by then they'll have gen2 sliders and the BMS will be sorted.

I still want my oompaloompa. I'm just going to have to wait.

 

Look at the positive angle, once next season begins you can buy a wheel that you can be confident in.

[Forwardnbak]

Sorry Tawpie. I feel for you and others in this situation. The wait for Ewheels customers and then this is sad to see. I’m glad the way Ewheels handled the problem.

So much hope on this wheel, i was the same and each time i saw a problem i was hoping it was a small issue. Then it kept on having problems and i made the same choice you did when motors were having issue.

At least you didn’t get it early and be off-road this season waiting on motors and parts that had issues. You have some time and still have $ to go shopping again. Luck to you! 

[NErider]

I'm still pumped that my wheel is on the way. Probably will be riding by the end of the week. If mine ends up with a motor issue (probably will) then ewheels already has them on the way and it's an easy swap. The S22 is everything I wished the S18 was. I think is going to be great!

[supercurio]

@Tawpie your decision to cancel this order is very logical and makes perfect sense - with any single reason you listed.

[Rawnei]

On 8/31/2022 at 8:46 AM, Rawnei said:

3D printed slider replacements with bearings:

 

First ride today on these 3D printed sliders, I want to preface that I'm having some issues with my printer currently that I am troubleshooting so big parts like this the tolerances aren't there 100% for me and I had to sand these a bit for them to fit in the channels, so with that I also think that these parts I have now have more friction then I think they should have, I will print new parts eventually when I have my printer under control but this was good enough for now and for testing.

Also I only annealed the rollers (annealing makes the HTPLA stronger and more heat resistant) but in the future I will also try to anneal the main parts, I bought sand today specifically to be able to do this without too much deformation and test how that works on bigger more complex parts.

So with that said, still a bit of friction due to above problems with my printer but it was still a clear upgrade from my previous stock+PTFE+dirt protecting variant, you can definitely feel the difference specially on technical off-road, nice upgrade even if I need to perfect my printing results.

[Tawpie]

Thanks for putting up with my whining... it's a bitter pill, and I needed to get it out of my system.

 

6 hours ago, Rawnei said:

Look at the positive angle, once next season begins you can buy a wheel that you can be confident in.

That's what I'm hoping for. And who knows, maybe I'll warm to the idea of a 16" suspension wheel... but I do so like the luxury of "less attention to the path" that larger wheels afford

4 hours ago, Forwardnbak said:

So much hope on this wheel

And honestly, this is still my wheel of choice even with T4 in the picture. IMO they set out to build the exact wheel I want and if it wasn't for the motor, I'd still be totally on board.

4 hours ago, NErider said:

I'm still pumped that my wheel is on the way. Probably will be riding by the end of the week.

Please forgive me for being envious! I'm guessing you'll be just fine—we've had some locals with dead motherboards and chargers (no motor issues that I've heard about) but also have a number of riders that are zooming around with that cat-that-ate-the-canary grin. Bravo to you and all the others that are sticking it out, I do plan and hope to be joining you in the spring.

[Elliott Reitz]

10 hours ago, Tawpie said:

It's almost a month later and it broke my heart, but I cancelled my pre order today. I can still live with all of the things I mentioned last month, but...

...

I still ride all winter, but the rides are considerably shorter because it's too cold—I don't need a very big battery. The S22 is far too heavy to take on the fat bike snow trails anyway so it'd be relegated to city riding and as it is my 16X and S18 do just fine for the reduced needs of snow/rain/eternal darkness season…

 

My 2nd S22 is part of the "let the dust settle" set on hold with eWheels.  As for comparing it to the S18, I have my v1 S20 from Alian Rides working again.   Compared to my S18 with the Kenda K262 on it for trails, I do find it more capable due mostly to torque. Even at very slow speeds (such as my last vid that I posted on the video thread). 

[kiitick]

I emailed Jason about shipping, for those that haven't seen movement yet.

 

Thanks for that. Initially the logic was 'unless requests to hold, ship', but it seemed more prudent to 'only ship on receiving positive confirmation'. 

 

 

[mrelwood]

 

On 8/27/2022 at 8:31 PM, Flying W said:

keep in mind that on a mnt bike with rear suspension it takes more of you energy  to pedal. Less of your output goes into forward movement.

Yes, because pedaling is a vertical movement. You pump the pedals down with your weight, which is what suspension is designed to dampen.

On 8/27/2022 at 8:31 PM, Flying W said:

I suspect suspension on an euc also takes something extra off tye total range.

If it does, it has nothing to do with pedaling a bicycle. The EUC suspension doesn't compress while you accelerate, does it? One theory was that suspension wheels might get a better range than non-suspension wheel, due to the potentially decreased peak current required to get up all the pavement crevices, pebbles and other tiny inclines. That would make sense, but even so the difference should be much smaller than the other factors, such as the ability to ride faster over bumps etc.

 

On 8/27/2022 at 8:31 PM, Flying W said:

I have no doubt that flat paved cruising (18 to 20mph) will result in decent range, somewhere around 50 miles.

The V11 is a 35-42 mile wheel for my 108kg weight. S22 does weigh more, but it has 48% more battery. I'm not buying an S22, but if I were, I would definitely expect more than 50 miles with my riding.

 

On 9/1/2022 at 3:35 AM, Elliott Reitz said:

I run 45 psi (max-rated for stock tire).

So did Chooch, until he crashed due to the tire bouncing up from a rock.

On 9/1/2022 at 3:35 AM, Elliott Reitz said:

I don't believe in softening a tire to compensate for lack of skill in managing wobbles or bumps.   suspension is nice for that!

A suspension can never be as fast and compliant as a correctly inflated tire is designed to be. It has nothing to do with skill. Mind you, most pro riders seem to ride on rather low pressures.

I don't believe in maxing out anything,  especially tire pressure. You don't do it in a car either, do you? If one has just a little patience, one can find the optimal pressure for one's weight and riding style with a few quick tests. And that can improve riding comfort, control and safety quite a bit.

Edited September 4, 2022 by mrelwood

[Yamanator]

13 hours ago, Tawpie said:

It's almost a month later and it broke my heart, but I cancelled my pre order today. I can still live with all of the things I mentioned last month, but...

It's September, where I ride trails the snow starts to fly in late October—so the off road season is rapidly drawing to a close. Because of a previously planned trip (any riders in PDX, I'm looking for suggestions on where to ride!!!) I couldn't take delivery of my wheel until nearly the end of September so by the time I fiddled around with the wheel and got enough confidence in it (and my ability to ride it!), I'm into snow season.

I still ride all winter, but the rides are considerably shorter because it's too cold—I don't need a very big battery. The S22 is far too heavy to take on the fat bike snow trails anyway so it'd be relegated to city riding and as it is my 16X and S18 do just fine for the reduced needs of snow/rain/eternal darkness season…

Anyway, by the time the weather will permit returning to dirt and distance riding KS will be on batch 3? Maybe by then it'll be ready enough for me.

I still think S22 is an amazing accomplishment. KS pushed very hard in just about every possible direction at the same time… remember this wheel is 70 kph fast, has the BMS we've been whining for, has redundant wheel position sensors, very promising suspension design, easy to change tires, adequately protected from the elements, head turning looks — for the most part they executed pretty well. They certainly whiffed on the sliders but their design allows for inexpensive improvements. The BMS firmware is still borked, but it's firmware. Motherboard infant mortality is too high, but those that make it past the 1-2k km mark seem to be no worse than other wheels.

I can accept literally everything except the motor problem. I highly doubt it'd ever affect me—I ride like Marty, have zero interest in finding out if I can skip a magnet, don't weigh but a pittance, and don't push my wheels anywhere near their limits. But I would always worry about the motor. And a motor recall, if it should happen (unlikely, I bet it would be date code limited if it happened), would put me in the same sad state as the early V12 HS owners—potentially months with a shiny new bauble parked in the wheelhouse, mocking me because it can't be safely ridden.

Hopefully by spring there will be enough history to say the motor issue is truly solved, and maybe by then they'll have gen2 sliders and the BMS will be sorted.

I still want my oompaloompa. I'm just going to have to wait.

 

I said to hold off, but didn't cancel it. From the emails it seemed like there was four options. Ship, Cancel, Hold and wait to see what they and KS find or do, and wait till next batch coming 5-6 weeks. But maybe the third option is just my interpretation.

I said I would hold off till next batch, but that if they found a simple fix (opening up each to check) then I would take one from this batch. Super bummed, just like you but I still want the wheel. I'm hoping there's a check and see and we'll ship option.

[litewave]

10 minutes ago, Yamanator said:

I said to hold off, but didn't cancel it. From the emails it seemed like there was four options. Ship, Cancel, Hold and wait to see what they and KS find or do, and wait till next batch coming 5-6 weeks. But maybe the third option is just my interpretation.

I said I would hold off till next batch, but that if they found a simple fix (opening up each to check) then I would take one from this batch. Super bummed, just like you but I still want the wheel. I'm hoping there's a check and see and we'll ship option.

Is the second batch shipping from China in the next 5-6 weeks or already en route in a container?

If the latter, I doubt there will have been any new checks on/improvements to the motor.

If the first option (not shipped yet), I suspect it will take more than another 5-6 weeks to resolve the motor issues.

Edited September 4, 2022 by litewave

[Elliott Reitz]

51 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

...

So did Chooch, until he crashed due to the tire bouncing up from a rock.

A suspension can never be as fast and compliant as a correctly inflated tire is designed to be. It has nothing to do with skill. Mind you, most pro riders seem to ride on rather low pressures.

I don't believe in maxing out anything,  especially tire pressure. You don't do it in a car either, do you? If one has just a little patience, one can find the optimal pressure for one's weight and riding style with a few quick tests. And that can improve riding comfort, control and safety quite a bit.

Pro at what?  EUC?  lol.  

For hitting roots and small curbs, especially with smaller wheels higher pressure reduces rim damage risk.  It also extends the amount of time before the tire gets hand-squishable indicating a need for getting the pump out, finding the extender, etc.  Nice the S20 is accessible air-valve, and yes I run it full pressure on road and off, very slow to 40 mph max so far (good enough for me on it).   My ride yesterday I hit a 6" root that induced a cut out on the S20 (it calls itself an S22 now with its new motherboard & batteries).  No clunk but a "0B" error code and need to power cycle.  

Edited September 4, 2022 by Elliott Reitz

[5Cauac]

24 minutes ago, Elliott Reitz said:

My ride yesterday I hit a 6" root that induced a cut out on the S20 (it calls itself an S22 now with its new motherboard & batteries).  No clunk but a "0B" error code and need to power cycle.  

At what speed were you going at? No injuries I hope. 

[Rawnei]

I used to ride 25-30 psi before suspension, now with my suspension my reasoning to go 40 PSI to better protect the rim and let suspension do the work holds up, it's much softer and way less bouncy for you as a rider on any sort of surface, my shermax on 30 PSI is like a trampoline compared to S22 at 40 PSI, see no reason to go lower to get more comfortable ride.

[Yamanator]

52 minutes ago, litewave said:

Is the second batch shipping from China in the next 5-6 weeks or already en route in a container?

If the latter, I doubt there will have been any new checks on/improvements to the motor.

If the first option (not shipped yet), I suspect it will take more than another 5-6 weeks to resolve the motor issues.

I assumed they're building them now and it takes a month to ship. They ship to the west coast so depending on who they use it could be as fast as 15 days. But who knows I'm not expert in this type of supply chain lol.