King Song S18 Discussion

[Asphalt]

I like the angle of that headlight!

Love the design aesthetic!

@Jack King Song can you let us know if there’s a cover - as in a panel that will cover the exposed section?

I imagine that there will have to be a sliding or accordion mechanism to account for the suspension displacement.

Edited April 8, 2020 by Asphalt
Added detail

[Asphalt]

I also like that there’s an ident for the ankle bone, which should allow for some jumping grip.

The slight taper at the front should allow a pushing surface for the shins.

Looks like @Kuji Rolls may have had some influence on this design.

[PriestHood]

I went to all the posted links. And want to be awake for the Official announcement with specs.

I'm in the U.S. east coast.

They they mention a time ?

[.....]

Exposed parts are also easy to clean/adjust/inspect. A cover would be a great idea, but MANY a dirtbike has survived MANY falls from 30' into a mud puddle. Even more so, they get back up and finish the race. Lots of exposed parts on those.. Parts quality and materials has a lot to di with it. As with ANY suspension, I would assume it wears quickly and different bushings, pivots and springs weights will be a stock item.  Just speculation, but I didnt immediately assume the open design would be bad, but i can totally see how exposed fork tubes can be problematic over time. Give me a choice of spring rates, dampening and rebound adjustments on that nitro shock, and NOW we're getting somewhere...

Edited April 8, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[Stillhart]

I like that suspension setup.  Like with a motorcycle, you should be able to adjust ride height by making the connection to the shock longer or shorter.  If the shock uses standard size connections (like it's not some weird proprietary thing), it could allow for a lot of customization of the ride feel.

I too wonder if it's supposed to be covered and this is just showing off the internals, or if it's supposed to be open.  I like the look of it open a LOT, but I feel like it won't be particularly practical.

[.....]

RIde height isnt really a big deal. Usually ride height is standard, its rider 'sag' that is adjusted for. For optimal working order, a suspension needs to be at the same ride height across different weights of people. Too low and you lose ability to absorb. Too high and rebound tops out. Ride height is a spec that is predetermined. A longer spring doesnt increase height, as the forks have a set height to full extension. I'm sure Kingsong looked into all of this, as its old information shared across many brands of bikes in the past. 

[Stillhart]

3 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

RIde height isnt really a big deal. Usually ride height is standard, its rider 'sag' that is adjusted for. For optimal working order, a suspension needs to be at the same ride height across different weights of people. Too low and you lose ability to absorb. Too high and rebound tops out. Ride height is a spec that is predetermined. A longer spring doesnt increase height, as the forks have a set height to full extension. I'm sure Kingsong looked into all of this, as its old information shared across many brands of bikes in the past. 

Well I mean I've literally done it before for myself and I know others who have done it.  Admittedly, the way it works on a bike isn't necessarily the way it will work on the wheel.  I was just postulating on whether it could be done or not.

As to whether it's a big deal, I certainly am not an experienced rider and I've never been off-road on my wheel, but I've read enough comments from people who do ride off-road to know that they like their pedals higher off the ground.  I've also read that pedal height contributes to different wheels feeling different.  I've read that the lower pedals on the Tesla help it feel more controlled at the cost of off-roadability.  Based on all that, I think maybe it would be a big deal if people could customize their ride height... at least for some.

[El-Rudio75]

[.....]

12 minutes ago, Stillhart said:

Well I mean I've literally done it before for myself and I know others who have done it.  Admittedly, the way it works on a bike isn't necessarily the way it will work on the wheel.  I was just postulating on whether it could be done or not.

As to whether it's a big deal, I certainly am not an experienced rider and I've never been off-road on my wheel, but I've read enough comments from people who do ride off-road to know that they like their pedals higher off the ground.  I've also read that pedal height contributes to different wheels feeling different.  I've read that the lower pedals on the Tesla help it feel more controlled at the cost of off-roadability.  Based on all that, I think maybe it would be a big deal if people could customize their ride height... at least for some.

you are right, it would be nice if it was adjustable. Most of the time, the geometry and travel are built into the design, and it takes a lot more than a spring or two. As suspension compresses, angles change. You have to sustain suspension geometry or it becomes hard to rely on. Progressive springs are really finicky about it. Usually if someone want a higher ride, they have to change out quite a bit. I fear that THIS kind of customization on a light weight euc, may be asking a bit much. But yes, in motorcross, ride height can be changed, tho one must be mindful of ALL the geometry involved once that is done. The resonable option on an euc is to set it at a standard height and allow rebound and dampening adjustments on the shock. Combined with spring selection, your ride would be able to absorb bumps at speed but not pogo. It also has to rebound fast enough so that bumps in succession, dont overcome its ability to rebound between. Personally, if they even consider half of this, i'd still be VERY interested! Higher spring rate at the same ride height, will decrease the liklihood of bottoming out. Raise the ride height but not the spring rate, and yuo bottom out just the same, only with a higher center of gravity. Bottom out as in the shocks bottom out, they only have so much travel to offer.

[SamSuffit]

@Jack King Song

Hello, is it going to be waterproof? (IP55 or other)

because using a wheel for commuting does not leave much choice concerning weather...

[Marty Backe]

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

If the photo above is the final design of the S18:

• The wheel is not suitable for off road riding. Just a single fall on dirt would get sand and mud in the suspension mechanism. A single slow speed tumble on a rocky path could render the suspension and possibly the whole wheel unusable.
• First photo we see already has rather thick DIY packaging foam added for sidepads?! Lacking in comfort much?
• 1110Wh is right there among the smallest 18" EUC batteries since something like 2016.
• The shapes and lines of the design look very unsleek, unpractical, and unneccessary.
• The (EDIT: reminicient of the) ChaoYang H-5102 tire is a street tire, pure and simple. The CST C-1488 of the current 18XL would be at least manageable off-road.
• The pedals seem low even without a rider.

Hence, no matter if I could have a cup of tea on top of the wheel not splashing despite riding down steep stairs at speed, and even if it would enable me to ride up actual stairs worth 40°, and even if it wouldn't cost more than $1000, I'd have no interest in buying one. Maybe if Inmotion didn't have a properly covered off-road capable wheel with 30% larger battery, great lights, and if the S18 really did cost $1000. Even an XL version of this is an obvious hard pass for me. I don't even know who I could recommend getting one.

• The Z10 is advertised as an 18-inch wheel and it has a ~950wh battery. It's a solid 35-mile wheel. It was released in 2018.
• The KS18L is a ~1000wh 18-inch wheel.

So this is actually a large small-battery 18-inch wheel 

[Stillhart]

17 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

you are right, it would be nice if it was adjustable. Most of the time, the geometry and travel are built into the design, and it takes a lot more than a spring or two. As suspension compresses, angles change. You have to sustain suspension geometry or it becomes hard to rely on. Progressive springs are really finicky about it. Usually if someone want a higher ride, they have to change out quite a bit. I fear that THIS kind of customization on a light weight euc, may be asking a bit much. But yes, in motorcross, ride height can be changed, tho one must be mindful of ALL the geometry involved once that is done. The resonable option on an euc is to set it at a standard height and allow rebound and dampening adjustments on the shock. Combined with spring selection, your ride would be able to absorb bumps at speed but not pogo. It also has to rebound fast enough so that bumps in succession, dont overcome its ability to rebound between. Personally, if they even consider half of this, i'd still be VERY interested! Higher spring rate at the same ride height, will decrease the liklihood of bottoming out. Raise the ride height but not the spring rate, and yuo bottom out just the same, only with a higher center of gravity. Bottom out as in the shocks bottom out, they only have so much travel to offer.

So on the street bikes where I've done it, raising the ride height was done through lengthening or shortening the shock, either with an aftermarket adjustable one, or a swap with a shock from another bike that's slightly longer or shorter.  You do have to be wary of changes to the overall geometry of the bike since raising the back will shorten the wheel-base and change the cornering characteristics.  EDIT - Oh and obviously, this only applies to certain bikes that have these cool linkages on the shocks.  More traditional shock setups don't really work as well for this kind of mod.

I put a GSXR-1000 shock on my SV650 once, which raised the seat height slightly and helped it fall into the corner faster.  It also gave me a spring rate that was better matched to my weight and fully adjustable dampening and rebound.  Overall it made the bike much much nicer.

On a wheel like this, there's no wheelbase to shorten so swapping in a longer or shorter shock could be a fun mod if you know what you're doing.

OR it could screw everything up, guess we'll find out eventually.  :-D

Edited April 8, 2020 by Stillhart

[.....]

You also increased the rake when you brought the rear end up, and this really does help dive in a corner. Of course, it also upsets the balance of weight and requires moree dampening in the front forks to compensate. Kind of moot on the euc, as it doesnt have a wheelbase or rake. I do see that it is using 2 forks and a mono shock. To raise the height, I would guess that you would have to address all 3 of these components. With such short travel, i still think there wouldnt be much you could do. This is all speculation tho, maybe they will incorportate a way to adjust all 3 suspension parts. FOr me, they give me a choice of spring rates and dampening and rebound and I'll be overjoyed.  Hell, maybe simply adjusting the angle of the mono-shock, WILL be how they address static sag adjustments. At the very least, its giving me ideas and they are bringing innovation to the table.  With such short suspension travel available, it would defy what we know about shocks, to state it will work properly for a person weighing in at 90lbs and a person weighing in at 220 lbs, without addressing all parameters.  Dampening with the shock is only part of the battle. Where those springs sit during sag of rider is the other half. I can only imagine the can of worms they could open, if they allow adjusting of these things, while vast amounts of people would be shocked at all it entails to get it right.  OMFG the outcry from the uninformed, when they realize how finicky it is to get a 2" suspension to act properly at their weight. My guy at Dmr motorsports would be more than happy to make parts for me, should it come to that. Of course he's making medical parts atm..  I KNOW you know these parts, but for anyone who hasnt seen typical fork innards.... Nevermind the chasing down different oil weights and amounts. Unfortunately, I know very little about air shocks, maybe NONE of this applies. oh well, knowledge is knowledge.

 

Edited April 8, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[.....]

Those are pictures, not a time. Or is THAT the release and no need to wait up? Looks great to me, open design is sexy. If that's the finished look, I foresee a muddy crotch at all times... maybe a badge of honor? solid or retractable handle? For me, if the suspension even comes in at half my unreal expectations, the rest is just icing on the cake. Hopefully youve rolled it end over end down a hill and that air valve isnt proven to be a high spot?

Edited April 8, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[Rywokast]

looks gorgeous, but cmon this isnt our first time here we all know the range is nowhere close to 110 km xD

[Stillhart]

1 minute ago, Rywokast said:

looks gorgeous, but cmon this isnt our first time here we all know the range is nowhere close to 110 km xD

They've kind of painted themselves into a corner with it though... if they say the REAL range, everyone will assume it's 30-50% less anyways.  :-D

[Rywokast]

3 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

Those are pictures, not a time. Or is THAT the release and no need to wait up? Looks great to me, open design is sexy. If that's the finished look, I foresee a muddy crotch at all times... maybe a badge of honor? solid or retractable handle? For me, if the suspension even comes in at half my unreal expectations, the rest is just icing on the cake.

looks like a retractable perpendicular one here

[.....]

3 minutes ago, Stillhart said:

They've kind of painted themselves into a corner with it though... if they say the REAL range, everyone will assume it's 30-50% less anyways.  :-D

same with inflated speed statements. Too late now to publish calibrated speeds, as we're used to seeing the inflated specs on the adverts. oh wow, I just assumed those 2 poles were a quad set of forks to assist in suspension. Obviously they could be trolley and Im just hoping for the impossible again.

Edited April 8, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[Rywokast]

3 minutes ago, Stillhart said:

They've kind of painted themselves into a corner with it though... if they say the REAL range, everyone will assume it's 30-50% less anyways.  :-D

i do wh/20 = km as an average (for me).. obviously different wheel sizes and characteristics will affect this but its a good average

[Rywokast]

2 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

same with inflated speed statements. Too late now to publish calibrated speeds, as we're used to seeing the inflated specs on the adverts. oh wow, I just assumed those 2 poles were a quad set of forks to assist in suspension. Obviously they could be trolley and Im just hoping for the impossible again.

i think the one in the back is.. you can see in the real pic its connected to the rear suspension indirectly.. i think they just tried to make it appear that the whole thing is just that, concealing the trolley somewhat because it doesnt look badass on its own haha 

[.....]

Sneaky sneaky. See, THIS is the part I really enjoy. I get to wonder and have hopes that can be ludicrous. The real trick is, are my hopes not dashed too much, and after the anticipation is gone, I still want one. I'm so negative that if it holds ANY interest to me at all, once reality is revealed, I'll buy.  Kingsong is known for being sleek and useable, i'd imagine that a hidden trollety is more likely than me assuming it didnt have one. I just wanna know... when (time) do i need to be staring at this computer like a junky, looking for his next fix, so i can decide if reality and my hopes, meet at a tolerable place for my wallet to want to join the party. Im hoping KS has altered the power curves to enable it to read our intent more. Front weighted for batteries, COULD be an advantage, if the FW adjusted to it properly.

Edited April 8, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[mrelwood]

1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

• The Z10 is advertised as an 18-inch wheel and it has a ~950wh battery. It's a solid 35-mile wheel. It was released in 2018.
• The KS18L is a ~1000wh 18-inch wheel.

So this is actually a large small-battery 18-inch wheel 

I kind of lump everything from the V10F to the S18 in the same group, as they are not interesting to me, yet close enough to eachother to be recommended to someone looking for a somewhat similiar range.

Remains to be seen though wether we'll see a 1600-1800Wh XS18 before christmas. Depends on sale figures and feedback, I'd imagine.

If S18 and V11 are both "50" km/h wheels with the manufacturers' traditional inflations, wouldn't that make the V11 a good bit faster than the S18? I don't remember wether the Inmotion inflation has been measured as precisely though.

[Rywokast]

2 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

I kind of lump everything from the V10F to the S18 in the same group, as they are not interesting to me, yet close enough to eachother to be recommended to someone looking for a somewhat similiar range.

Remains to be seen though wether we'll see a 1600-1800Wh XS18 before christmas. Depends on sale figures and feedback, I'd imagine.

If S18 and V11 are both "50" km/h wheels with the manufacturers' traditional inflations, wouldn't that make the V11 a good bit faster than the S18? I don't remember wether the Inmotion inflation has been measured as precisely though.

for the first 5 km yea 

[.....]

4 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

I kind of lump everything from the V10F to the S18 in the same group, as they are not interesting to me, yet close enough to eachother to be recommended to someone looking for a somewhat similiar range.

Remains to be seen though wether we'll see a 1600-1800Wh XS18 before christmas. Depends on sale figures and feedback, I'd imagine.

If S18 and V11 are both "50" km/h wheels with the manufacturers' traditional inflations, wouldn't that make the V11 a good bit faster than the S18? I don't remember wether the Inmotion inflation has been measured as precisely though.

The ability to 'upgrade' from the current pack to the 'XS' version at a later date, would make being an early adopter, more feasible. If they make the damn things tough enough and serviceable enough with parts available, I wouldnt be worried so much. I could beat the crap out of the S model and when came time, upgrade to a larger pack (after the old pack loses some zing). I think we are currently at the whim of battery tech. I'd LOVE to go 45mph, but i damn sure dont want to pay $2k for 80lbs of batteries. Cmon battery tech, as thats what everyone is REALLY asking for, not a magic pile of parts that somehow defies current efficiency by miles. I'm having to accept that I better focus on something otther than range and top speed for now, or I'll miss the advancements in everything else. THe same advancements that will carry on when we finally DO start mass producing personal nuclear reactors for power.

[mrelwood]

3 minutes ago, Rywokast said:

for the first 5 km yea 

From Jason @ eWheels:

Quote

Will there be the voltage speed reduction similar to the other Inmotion models, such as the V10/F?
The precise information on this point has yet to be established, we’re trying to work with Inmotion to achieve the right balance between ride safety & to not diminish the performance of the Wheel with unnecessary speed throttling. The ideal behaviour will be similar to the King Song 16X/18XL, with the speed reductions threshold to engage below the 33% level.

https://forum.electricunicycle.org/topic/16554-inmotion-v11-2020/?do=findComment&comment=299344

 

So it should be closer to something like 40km! Which is when the puny 1110Wh battery has been coughing for a while already...