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Is the rider jacket really necessary?

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On 2/20/2019 at 10:55 PM, Marty Backe said:

I was looking at that jacket earlier (the black one, but maybe white too). So you've worn that in the hot weather any it's comfortable? Also, does the padding seem sufficient, and does it stay in place? I'm particularly concerned about having good shoulder protection.

Thanks.

@Marty Backe I saw your video with your new outfit. The links were only for knee pads and elbow. Can you please share the full list of armor. I really liked it and want to get it. I fell too and dont want to go without proper protection again. 

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54 minutes ago, Ather said:

@Marty Backe I saw your video with your new outfit. The links were only for knee pads and elbow. Can you please share the full list of armor. I really liked it and want to get it. I fell too and dont want to go without proper protection again. 

Thanks :)

Any of my videos since late November should have a list of my current safety gear in the Description below the video.

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With a jacket even though some have elbow pads built in, make sure they are able to protect your elbow without shifting around.  I found with my moto-jacket I thought I was protected, but the elbow pad shifted during my fall and ended up being out of place so my elbow got the brunt of the impact anyways.  Sometimes these things can give you a false sense of security, and when it comes to a real fall you really need to ensure they will perform correctly and that pads stay in the proper places.  I'm more convinced that the strap on elbow pads are likely a better choice since the sleeved pads are free to shift a little.

Edited by Hunka Hunka Burning Love
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On 2/22/2019 at 1:12 AM, IRK said:

I just ordered this jacket which is similar. 

 

https://www.revzilla.com/motorcycle/revit-eclipse-jacket

 

 

 

On 2/27/2019 at 4:08 PM, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said:

With a jacket even though some have elbow pads built in, make sure they are able to protect your elbow without shifting around.  I found with my moto-jacket I thought I was protected, but the elbow pad shifted during my fall and ended up being out of place so my elbow got the brunt of the impact anyways.  Sometimes these things can give you a false sense of security, and when it comes to a real fall you really need to ensure they will perform correctly and that pads stay in the proper places.  I'm more convinced that the strap on elbow pads are likely a better choice since the sleeved pads are free to shift a little.

 

IRK, that jacket looks really nice.  Would be curious to know how it is in regards to the elbow pads shifting

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On 2/28/2019 at 8:08 PM, MrRobot said:

 

 

IRK, that jacket looks really nice.  Would be curious to know how it is in regards to the elbow pads shifting

Got the jacket and took it for a spin today.  Very, very happy personally.  Looks great and the elbow pads don’t shift on me with the tighter button connected.  Very happy with the purchase.

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It took returning two jackets and a trip to a huge cycle warehouse to try on everything and finally get the set-up that I love.   The jacket fits beautifully, even with the back armor, and moves a ton of air.   I LOVE the modular helmet, can't believe it took me this long to get one!   I feel that the set-up provides a great deal of protection without looking too goofy or out of place.   

Dainese Air Frame D1 Tex Jacket

Bilt Power Modular Helmet

Fox Racing Titan Knee/Shin Pads

Killer 187 Wrist Guards

Brian EUC Pic.jpg

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52 minutes ago, Dzlchef said:

It took returning two jackets and a trip to a huge cycle warehouse to try on everything and finally get the set-up that I love.   The jacket fits beautifully, even with the back armor, and moves a ton of air.   I LOVE the modular helmet, can't believe it took me this long to get one!   I feel that the set-up provides a great deal of protection without looking too goofy or out of place.   

Dainese Air Frame D1 Tex Jacket

Bilt Power Modular Helmet

Fox Racing Titan Knee/Shin Pads

Killer 187 Wrist Guards

Brian EUC Pic.jpg

Looking good :thumbup: A bit different from when I met you.

I see your thumb is still unprotected. What you really need is a pair of what @EUC Extreme wears:

photo.jpg

And here they are in action:

 

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1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

Looking good :thumbup: A bit different from when I met you.

I see your thumb is still unprotected. What you really need is a pair of what @EUC Extreme wears:

photo.jpg

And here they are in action:

 

That’s awesome!  I have a pair of tactical gloves but they don’t fit with my thumb wrapped.  Very soon they’ll be added to the mix! 

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11 hours ago, Dzlchef said:

It took returning two jackets and a trip to a huge cycle warehouse to try on everything and finally get the set-up that I love.   The jacket fits beautifully, even with the back armor, and moves a ton of air.   I LOVE the modular helmet, can't believe it took me this long to get one!   I feel that the set-up provides a great deal of protection without looking too goofy or out of place.   

Dainese Air Frame D1 Tex Jacket

Bilt Power Modular Helmet

Fox Racing Titan Knee/Shin Pads

Killer 187 Wrist Guards

Brian EUC Pic.jpg

Hey Dzl, where is the cycle warehouse  you visited? I feel like trying things on in person would be so valuable

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I already had a M/C jacket before the EUC.  I wear it infrequently, and here's why; on my particular jacket the elbow pads are in the wrong place.  Let me be specific, they are in the right place if I fell directly downwards onto them as one would if something like a skate board shot out in front of you and you go down on your butt/elbows.  BUT, in a flying face plant its not the very tips of your elbows that contact the ground, it's the inner edge. Do this: hold your arms straight out in front of you palms down.  Where are your elbows pointing? Outwards right! What's pointing at the ground? The inner edge of your elbows.  This is the part that makes contact when you superman all the way to the ground.  Now do this: put your arms out in front of you and turn them so that the elbows face downwards. Where are your palms?  Straight you to the ceiling, right!  Do you expect to face plant with your palms up to the sky.  Didn't think so.

Its like the jacket makers went through a box checking exercise; Shoulder pads? check. Elbow pads? check.

Maybe it's just my jacket, who knows, but coming off a motorbike often includes a superman type dismount, So what are these good for?

Another thing: Wearing Flexmeter wrist guards under a M/C jacket is awkward.  If you put them on first, they grab all the way down the sleeve and I find myself wrestling awkwardly for quite some time.  If you put the guards on after the jacket, it's difficult to impossible to tighten the strap furthes up the sleave.  Getting everything off afterwards is a bit of a pfaff too.

Basically I'm not impress with (my) motorcycle jacket YMMV

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4 hours ago, Jambo said:

Hey Dzl, where is the cycle warehouse  you visited? I feel like trying things on in person would be so valuable

I went to Cycle Gear in Culver City but there are several in SoCal so maybe another closer?

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Posted (edited)
On 3/12/2019 at 4:50 AM, Smoother said:

I already had a M/C jacket before the EUC.  I wear it infrequently, and here's why; on my particular jacket the elbow pads are in the wrong place.  Let me be specific, they are in the right place if I fell directly downwards onto them as one would if something like a skate board shot out in front of you and you go down on your butt/elbows.  BUT, in a flying face plant its not the very tips of your elbows that contact the ground, it's the inner edge. Do this: hold your arms straight out in front of you palms down.  Where are your elbows pointing? Outwards right! What's pointing at the ground? The inner edge of your elbows.  This is the part that makes contact when you superman all the way to the ground.  Now do this: put your arms out in front of you and turn them so that the elbows face downwards. Where are your palms?  Straight you to the ceiling, right!  Do you expect to face plant with your palms up to the sky.  Didn't think so.

Its like the jacket makers went through a box checking exercise; Shoulder pads? check. Elbow pads? check.

Maybe it's just my jacket, who knows, but coming off a motorbike often includes a superman type dismount, So what are these good for?

Another thing: Wearing Flexmeter wrist guards under a M/C jacket is awkward.  If you put them on first, they grab all the way down the sleeve and I find myself wrestling awkwardly for quite some time.  If you put the guards on after the jacket, it's difficult to impossible to tighten the strap furthes up the sleave.  Getting everything off afterwards is a bit of a pfaff too.

Basically I'm not impress with (my) motorcycle jacket YMMV

Fit of the jacket and armor placement was critical in my buying decision. The forearm and bicep have adjustments to keep the guards in place and they cover very close to the same area/placement as my snap-on Titan elbow guards.

For wrist guards, I use the derby style with the jacket so it doesn’t get bound up on the cuff.  I know, hyperextending yada yada...  

I really tried to like the better armored jackets like Marty wears but the fit wasn’t for me.  I wanted something to help protect my shoulders and back, plus it gets annoying taking on/off elbow guards, so a motorcycle jacket was the next best option. 

Edited by Dzlchef
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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Smoother said:

I already had a M/C jacket before the EUC.  I wear it infrequently, and here's why; on my particular jacket the elbow pads are in the wrong place.  Let me be specific, they are in the right place if I fell directly downwards onto them as one would if something like a skate board shot out in front of you and you go down on your butt/elbows.  BUT, in a flying face plant its not the very tips of your elbows that contact the ground, it's the inner edge. Do this: hold your arms straight out in front of you palms down.  Where are your elbows pointing? Outwards right! What's pointing at the ground? The inner edge of your elbows.  This is the part that makes contact when you superman all the way to the ground.  Now do this: put your arms out in front of you and turn them so that the elbows face downwards. Where are your palms?  Straight you to the ceiling, right!  Do you expect to face plant with your palms up to the sky.  Didn't think so.

Its like the jacket makers went through a box checking exercise; Shoulder pads? check. Elbow pads? check.

Maybe it's just my jacket, who knows, but coming off a motorbike often includes a superman type dismount, So what are these good for?

Another thing: Wearing Flexmeter wrist guards under a M/C jacket is awkward.  If you put them on first, they grab all the way down the sleeve and I find myself wrestling awkwardly for quite some time.  If you put the guards on after the jacket, it's difficult to impossible to tighten the strap furthes up the sleave.  Getting everything off afterwards is a bit of a pfaff too.

Basically I'm not impress with (my) motorcycle jacket YMMV

Actually, you’re not correct. You almost always land on the outside portion of your elbow, never the medial or inner portion. 

You must understand that the first thing to impact is most likely the hands. This will force the elbows to go into flexion (bending them) which makes it extremely likely that you will further make contact with the lateral side of your elbows.

Most pads are thick enough/protrude out enough that they will make contact first before an unprotected portion of your limbs makes contact (which is what you want). 

If you understand the way motorcycle jackets and pants are built, the manufacturer always says to have the pads in the correct place when your limbs are bent. Not when they are straight because you never fall on a straightened knee or elbow joint.

Edited by Darrell Wesh
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I love posting this photo. 

If you have wrist guards on you can clearly see that if your guards are working properly you will extend one hand and slide some and roll to one side thus contacting the staight bottom or outer edge of the elbow, never the inner edge.

A15A3BE5-2C34-4E40-A7EB-26134CD5A5E8.png

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Darrell Wesh said:

Actually, you’re not correct. You almost always land on the outside portion of your elbow, never the medial or inner portion. 

Well I don't appreciate being told I am wrong when I know which part of MY elbows hits the ground when I face plant (and get road rash and bruises to prove it), and I know where the elbow pads are on MY motorcycle jacket. Your motorcycle pads may be perfectly placed, but mine are not. 

And in none of my face plants have I ever rolled to the side.  Using a companies marketing material to prove a point is suspect at best, because they are trying to sell you something, so they can draw any pretty picture they want to prove their point.

Edited by Smoother

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Posted (edited)

I bought a jacket and noticed the elbow pads not covering the inside. Rollerblade falls for me were a smidge to the inside of the elbow with no rolling on to the back. Falling off a motorcycle is more landing on one side I would imagine.

Edited by tessa25
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1 minute ago, tessa25 said:

I bought a jacket and noticed the elbow pads not covering the inside. Rollerblade falls for me were a smidge to the inside of the elbow with no rolling on to the back.

Thank you. 

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I do see the benefit of M/C jackets, particularly in terms of abrasion protection (the only parts that are protected between by hip and my neck are my elbows and wrists). But when trying on M/C jackets, I immediately had doubts about whether they'd actually be useful for EUC-riding.

On one hand, I'm not too sure the "sliding capabilities" of a M/C jacket can be compared to a hard plastic skid plate. They're designed for higher speed crashes, and I have a feeling (this is just speculation so correct me if I'm wrong) a jacket would offer more friction resistance than a plastic skid plate would.

On the other hand, the elbow protections felt thin and flimsy compared to my (mid-range) skate elbow guards. I tried on almost every jacket in the shop (from leading brands), and the elbow padding was much thinner, in all cases, than the padding on my skate elbow guards. Even if it's G-Form, D30 or Knox-style self-hardening technology, call me old-fashioned but I don't trust <1cm impact protectors like I do thick foam, old-school ones (maybe it's just because I haven't tried them). A M/C crash is likely to be at a much higher speed than an EUC crash, so it makes sense that design is more focused on (high-speed) abrasion/friction resistance than on impact protection.

But more troublesome (for EUC-riding) was the position and shape of the elbow-pads. They seemed much more focused on the centre and outside portion of the elbow, not on the inside. I understand that in a M/C crash, you're most likely to fall on your side (or at least that's been my experience), so either the centre or the outside of your elbow will be the first to hit the ground.

But in an EUC crash the dynamics are very different. In every single fall I've had, upon hitting the ground and starting to slide, my arm has extended in a straight line (so inner part of the elbow was in contact with the ground) or my wrist guards have turned my arm inward; and when my elbow has hit the ground before my wrist, it's always been the inner side. I'm not taking sides here, but my personal experience confirms @Smoother's point of view (I'm developing a habit of disagreeing with you, aren't I, @Darrell Wesh? :efee612b4b:). I just looked at the scratch marks on my elbow guards, and every single scratch is on the inner part of my elbow.

I see the benefits of M/C jackets (chiefly convenience and abrasion protection), but have my doubts about how useful the elbow protections would be for EUC-riding. Even as I was trying on different jackets, something didn't feel right (for EUC use). Whether my arm was straight or flexed, the protections didn't seem to be in the right place. No matter what brand/model I tried, I got the same feeling.

In the end, there are no EUC-specific products on the market, so we have to make do with whatever most closely resembles the kind of fall patterns we'll have. M/C equipment is sturdy and well-built, so I completely understand the appeal (I still haven't entirely discarded getting a M/C jacket), but it's specifically designed for motorcycles, with M/C-specific falls in mind. And as much as M/C equipment appeals to me, I don't think it offers the (specific) type of protection EUC-riders need, just like skateboard protections are perfect for skateboarders for pretty much useless for bikers...

 

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4 minutes ago, travsformation said:

But more troublesome (for EUC-riding) was the position and shape of the elbow-pads. They seemed much more focused on the centre and outside portion of the elbow, not on the inside. I understand that in a M/C crash, you're most likely to fall on your side (or at least that's been my experience), so either the centre or the outside of your elbow will be the first to hit the ground.

And what's interesting is that sliding on your front with one or both arms out in front of you is not an impossibility on a motorcycle.  There is no rule on how you will fall off a motorcycle because every crash is unique.  I've been riding motorcycles since I was 14, that's 43 years and eleven bikes and I've come off a few of them.  So why wouldn't the jacket manufacturers extend the protection a few inches to the inside?  I really think it is because pads are just a box checking exercise for them.  Maybe the high end brands like Alpinstars get it right, but my budget doesn't stretch to a £500 jacket.  If you watch Revzilla review of motorcycle gear, every report shows how every product is correctly made and does the job it was intended for, perfectly......  NOT!    Even $600 helmets get some form of criticism or other.  Why, because, just because it's designed as motorcycle gear, doesn't make it perfectly designed and manufactured.

And I agree with your definition of sliding vs not sliding.  Sliding dissipates impact forces smoothly rather than concentrating them.  Think about a boxer with a cut under his eye.  What does his trainer do? he smears as much Vaseline on the face as possible.  Vaseline doesn't heal cuts, but it sure makes it hard for his opponent to land a punch without the blow just sliding off.  And as someone recently remarked in the video thread about the wheeling on ice video from Russia " surely the faster you fall on ice, the safer you are" or words to that effect.  This is a direct reference to the "sliding is safer " argument.  So hard skinned pads, it is for me.  And since I've had more that my fair share of face plats, with only a slight bleeding graze on my chin to show for it, I'd say, sliding is working for me. YMMV

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38 minutes ago, travsformation said:

I do see the benefit of M/C jackets, particularly in terms of abrasion protection (the only parts that are protected between by hip and my neck are my elbows and wrists). But when trying on M/C jackets, I immediately had doubts about whether they'd actually be useful for EUC-riding.

On one hand, I'm not too sure the "sliding capabilities" of a M/C jacket can be compared to a hard plastic skid plate. They're designed for higher speed crashes, and I have a feeling (this is just speculation so correct me if I'm wrong) a jacket would offer more friction resistance than a plastic skid plate would.

On the other hand, the elbow protections felt thin and flimsy compared to my (mid-range) skate elbow guards. I tried on almost every jacket in the shop (from leading brands), and the elbow padding was much thinner, in all cases, than the padding on my skate elbow guards. Even if it's G-Form, D30 or Knox-style self-hardening technology, call me old-fashioned but I don't trust <1cm impact protectors like I do thick foam, old-school ones (maybe it's just because I haven't tried them). A M/C crash is likely to be at a much higher speed than an EUC crash, so it makes sense that design is more focused on (high-speed) abrasion/friction resistance than on impact protection.

But more troublesome (for EUC-riding) was the position and shape of the elbow-pads. They seemed much more focused on the centre and outside portion of the elbow, not on the inside. I understand that in a M/C crash, you're most likely to fall on your side (or at least that's been my experience), so either the centre or the outside of your elbow will be the first to hit the ground.

But in an EUC crash the dynamics are very different. In every single fall I've had, upon hitting the ground and starting to slide, my arm has extended in a straight line (so inner part of the elbow was in contact with the ground) or my wrist guards have turned my arm inward; and when my elbow has hit the ground before my wrist, it's always been the inner side. I'm not taking sides here, but my personal experience confirms @Smoother's point of view (I'm developing a habit of disagreeing with you, aren't I, @Darrell Wesh? :efee612b4b:). I just looked at the scratch marks on my elbow guards, and every single scratch is on the inner part of my elbow.

I see the benefits of M/C jackets (chiefly convenience and abrasion protection), but have my doubts about how useful the elbow protections would be for EUC-riding. Even as I was trying on different jackets, something didn't feel right (for EUC use). Whether my arm was straight or flexed, the protections didn't seem to be in the right place. No matter what brand/model I tried, I got the same feeling.

In the end, there are no EUC-specific products on the market, so we have to make do with whatever most closely resembles the kind of fall patterns we'll have. M/C equipment is sturdy and well-built, so I completely understand the appeal (I still haven't entirely discarded getting a M/C jacket), but it's specifically designed for motorcycles, with M/C-specific falls in mind. And as much as M/C equipment appeals to me, I don't think it offers the (specific) type of protection EUC-riders need, just like skateboard protections are perfect for skateboarders for pretty much useless for bikers...

 

M/C jackets for me are a "better than nothing" solution for when I want to ride to the store, etc. I agree with you that the padding is far inferior to what I get in my Leatt 5.5 gear. But I don't want to wear the Leatt around town, etc.

So it's a compromise. Wear the M/C jacket when it's more convenient to do so, but otherwise, for my dedicated rides, I'm sticking with the Leatt type protection.

I'm still working on my full arsenal of protective gear. The Leatt 5.5 armor will probably be my main cruising protection. I'm probably going to go with a more minimal version for my trail riding, where speed and sliding are not part of the equation but I still want shoulder and elbow protection. The Leatt 5.5 armor can get tiring quickly when there's a lot physical activity, such as usually what happens when in the outback.

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7 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

I'm still working on my full arsenal of protective gear. The Leatt 5.5 armor will probably be my main cruising protection. I'm probably going to go with a more minimal version for my trail riding, where speed and sliding are not part of the equation but I still want shoulder and elbow protection. The Leatt 5.5 armor can get tiring quickly when there's a lot physical activity, such as usually what happens when in the outback.

Plus the 30 extra minutes to put it all on :D

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On 3/2/2019 at 11:11 PM, IRK said:

Got the jacket and took it for a spin today.  Very, very happy personally.  Looks great and the elbow pads don’t shift on me with the tighter button connected.  Very happy with the purchase.

Hey, I bought the same jacket in silver. I like it!

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9 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

M/C jackets for me are a "better than nothing" solution for when I want to ride to the store, etc. I agree with you that the padding is far inferior to what I get in my Leatt 5.5 gear. But I don't want to wear the Leatt around town, etc.

So it's a compromise. Wear the M/C jacket when it's more convenient to do so, but otherwise, for my dedicated rides, I'm sticking with the Leatt type protection.

Couldn't agree more! 👍

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