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Is the rider jacket really necessary?

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1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

M/C jackets for me are a "better than nothing" solution for when I want to ride to the store, etc. I agree with you that the padding is far inferior to what I get in my Leatt 5.5 gear. But I don't want to wear the Leatt around town, etc.

So it's a compromise. Wear the M/C jacket when it's more convenient to do so, but otherwise, for my dedicated rides, I'm sticking with the Leatt type protection.

I'm still working on my full arsenal of protective gear. The Leatt 5.5 armor will probably be my main cruising protection. I'm probably going to go with a more minimal version for my trail riding, where speed and sliding are not part of the equation but I still want shoulder and elbow protection. The Leatt 5.5 armor can get tiring quickly when there's a lot physical activity, such as usually what happens when in the outback.

There's the Areostitch suit that can entered and exited within 7 seconds. 

It does provide nearly the highest level of impact and abrasion resistance, ad you can put extra armor in it.

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22 minutes ago, Rehab1 said:

Way too much time Marty. There are faster ways. 15 seconds max. :laughbounce2:

 

40398398333_aa8435415b_b.jpg

 

:lol:

Man, I have way too many pictures out there for you to be able to grab one that fits just about perfectly.

:cheers:

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3 minutes ago, LanghamP said:

There's the Areostitch suit that can entered and exited within 7 seconds. 

It does provide nearly the highest level of impact and abrasion resistance, ad you can put extra armor in it.

I was almost going to jump on that until I saw the price :shock2:

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11 minutes ago, LanghamP said:

There's the Areostitch suit that can entered and exited within 7 seconds. 

It does provide nearly the highest level of impact and abrasion resistance, ad you can put extra armor in it.

 

7 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

I was almost going to jump on that until I saw the price :shock2:

Much cheaper than the $1M robotic donning system. 

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Smoother said:

Well I don't appreciate being told I am wrong when I know which part of MY elbows hits the ground when I face plant (and get road rash and bruises to prove it), and I know where the elbow pads are on MY motorcycle jacket. Your motorcycle pads may be perfectly placed, but mine are not. 

And in none of my face plants have I ever rolled to the side.  Using a companies marketing material to prove a point is suspect at best, because they are trying to sell you something, so they can draw any pretty picture they want to prove their point.

😄 no one told you you were wrong. I said you aren’t correct. As far as the photo goes, it isn’t concerned with elbow impact at all, its a photo about Knox’s wrist system vs without. It is true that falls are all different, but a “textbook” fall like the photo documents is one where the outer portion of the elbow takes the brunt of the abrasion or impact. 

It is ridiculous to make, even sarcastically, a claim that apparel manufacturers in the game for decades have no clue where to put protective pads. Instead of pointing fingers at the company or the entire motorcycle jacket industry, point the finger at yourself and think about how many different body types there are out there with various lengths and widths. I have a jacket where my shoulder pads are not placed right, but another jacket in their line where it’s spot on perfect. That’s why the return policy on clothing is so generous. 

It always blows my mind when people say “the pads aren’t in the right place!” And then give the item a 1 star review while the review right above it gives it 5 stars and says the pads are in the right place. 

A correct fitting motorcycle jacket will provide coverage for both inner and outer portions of the elbow. This also applies for motorcycle pants and the knee armor. 

Bottom line: if you find yourself with pads that aren’t in the right spot you need to either buy a different jacket or search for ones with adjustable pads if you so crave having something you can just zip on and be on your way. You can’t complain if you know their are jackets with adjustable pads or straps to tighten pad placement but you cheaped out and bought a jacket with none of that tech. 

Edited by Darrell Wesh

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1 hour ago, Rehab1 said:

Way too much time Marty. There are faster ways. Putting your gear on in the future will take only 15 seconds max. :laughbounce2:

 

40398398333_aa8435415b_b.jpg

 

:D

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3 hours ago, travsformation said:

I do see the benefit of M/C jackets, particularly in terms of abrasion protection (the only parts that are protected between by hip and my neck are my elbows and wrists). But when trying on M/C jackets, I immediately had doubts about whether they'd actually be useful for EUC-riding.

On one hand, I'm not too sure the "sliding capabilities" of a M/C jacket can be compared to a hard plastic skid plate. They're designed for higher speed crashes, and I have a feeling (this is just speculation so correct me if I'm wrong) a jacket would offer more friction resistance than a plastic skid plate would.

On the other hand, the elbow protections felt thin and flimsy compared to my (mid-range) skate elbow guards. I tried on almost every jacket in the shop (from leading brands), and the elbow padding was much thinner, in all cases, than the padding on my skate elbow guards. Even if it's G-Form, D30 or Knox-style self-hardening technology, call me old-fashioned but I don't trust <1cm impact protectors like I do thick foam, old-school ones (maybe it's just because I haven't tried them). A M/C crash is likely to be at a much higher speed than an EUC crash, so it makes sense that design is more focused on (high-speed) abrasion/friction resistance than on impact protection.

But more troublesome (for EUC-riding) was the position and shape of the elbow-pads. They seemed much more focused on the centre and outside portion of the elbow, not on the inside. I understand that in a M/C crash, you're most likely to fall on your side (or at least that's been my experience), so either the centre or the outside of your elbow will be the first to hit the ground.

But in an EUC crash the dynamics are very different. In every single fall I've had, upon hitting the ground and starting to slide, my arm has extended in a straight line (so inner part of the elbow was in contact with the ground) or my wrist guards have turned my arm inward; and when my elbow has hit the ground before my wrist, it's always been the inner side. I'm not taking sides here, but my personal experience confirms @Smoother's point of view (I'm developing a habit of disagreeing with you, aren't I, @Darrell Wesh? :efee612b4b:). I just looked at the scratch marks on my elbow guards, and every single scratch is on the inner part of my elbow.

I see the benefits of M/C jackets (chiefly convenience and abrasion protection), but have my doubts about how useful the elbow protections would be for EUC-riding. Even as I was trying on different jackets, something didn't feel right (for EUC use). Whether my arm was straight or flexed, the protections didn't seem to be in the right place. No matter what brand/model I tried, I got the same feeling.

In the end, there are no EUC-specific products on the market, so we have to make do with whatever most closely resembles the kind of fall patterns we'll have. M/C equipment is sturdy and well-built, so I completely understand the appeal (I still haven't entirely discarded getting a M/C jacket), but it's specifically designed for motorcycles, with M/C-specific falls in mind. And as much as M/C equipment appeals to me, I don't think it offers the (specific) type of protection EUC-riders need, just like skateboard protections are perfect for skateboarders for pretty much useless for bikers...

 

It would be interesting if someone has any data on impact force of a straight on vertical fall vs a horizontal impact at speed. I would imagine the fall at speed would spread the force of impact(and you also have various other joints/body parts that could hit first or at the same time to further spread the force) 

42818D18-35CE-4072-B2A2-B476FFD3B1D7.jpeg

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On 3/11/2019 at 4:13 PM, Dzlchef said:

It took returning two jackets and a trip to a huge cycle warehouse to try on everything and finally get the set-up that I love.   The jacket fits beautifully, even with the back armor, and moves a ton of air.   I LOVE the modular helmet, can't believe it took me this long to get one!   I feel that the set-up provides a great deal of protection without looking too goofy or out of place.   

Dainese Air Frame D1 Tex Jacket

Bilt Power Modular Helmet

Fox Racing Titan Knee/Shin Pads

Killer 187 Wrist Guards

Brian EUC Pic.jpg

I’m liking that jacket!

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13 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

BTW, when I last timed how long it took me to fully put on the Leatt 5.5 upper body armor, it was under 3-minutes. My shoulder was still in pain so that slowed me down. I think it'll be well under 2-minutes.

But that, plus knee pads, full helmet, wrist-guards, etc. was approaching 10-minutes. Still acceptable when going out for a 3-hour ride.

I tell you, I don't want to break another bone :cry2:

Absolutely. My joke aside, It's not a great deal of time, and it's much better to take it when embarking on serious expeditions.

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14 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

I was almost going to jump on that until I saw the price :shock2:

I bought a new one on sale for around $600. 

Might be worth it for your long rides (I'm a five mile and done rider), because you can wear normal clothing, and get in or out within seconds. They provide thoughtless protection, in that you zip up and are fully protected. They essentially act like spacesuits.

My problem with them, and it's a big problem, is where do you stick the suit when not using it? Motorcycles you can put a single lockable hard case, but an EUC? I suppose one could put a hard case on an EUC with some ease, but then the damned EUC can get stolen!

In practice, for an EUC a thick leather motorcycle jacket, then racer type,  gauntlet gloves, and flat-soled high tops (not in white) such as Chuck Taylor's work best. Motorcycle boots are awful, because we need to run off when Bad Things happen to good riders, and motorcycle boots are practically anchors. I'd guess if you're going 18 Mph + you absolutely need thick leather or motorcycle specific synthetic somewhere on your upper body. Unlike on a motorcycle where you often don't touch your upper body in a crash, on an EUC for sure your upper body always hits the ground.

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6 hours ago, LanghamP said:

Motorcycle boots are awful, because we need to run off when Bad Things happen to good riders, and motorcycle boots are practically anchors.

I tried riding with my motorcycle shoes for a while; Alpinestar SMX. I found them to actually be acceptable on the wheel with a replacement insole; hard but very grippy bottom, with decent feel because the sole is thin. The downside is shoe flexion and platform feel is not on par with sneakers. You must trust the shoe, as opposed to strategically directed pressure from the foot working together with the shoe to keep your grip and know what the wheel is doing. 

My main problem with motorcycle shoes wasn't their on-wheel behavior; not perfect, but doable. The problem with the boots arose when I needed to walk; very uncomfortable. EUC shoes need to comfortable on and off the wheel. My SMX's suck for walking. 

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21 hours ago, LanghamP said:

There's the Areostitch suit that can entered and exited within 7 seconds. 

It does provide nearly the highest level of impact and abrasion resistance, ad you can put extra armor in it.

I saw the price on the right, and stopped the video:D 

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4 minutes ago, Lutalo said:

I saw the price on the right, and stopped the video:D 

:roflmao:That's exactly what I did.  That's 4 seconds of my life I'll never get back. :D

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On 3/13/2019 at 12:12 AM, Marty Backe said:

M/C jackets for me are a "better than nothing" solution for when I want to ride to the store, etc. I agree with you that the padding is far inferior to what I get in my Leatt 5.5 gear. But I don't want to wear the Leatt around town, etc.

So it's a compromise. Wear the M/C jacket when it's more convenient to do so, but otherwise, for my dedicated rides, I'm sticking with the Leatt type protection.

I'm still working on my full arsenal of protective gear. The Leatt 5.5 armor will probably be my main cruising protection. I'm probably going to go with a more minimal version for my trail riding, where speed and sliding are not part of the equation but I still want shoulder and elbow protection. The Leatt 5.5 armor can get tiring quickly when there's a lot physical activity, such as usually what happens when in the outback.

Actually, I've gone down five of the six times total with an MC-jacket, the odd one out in a Sweet Protection Bear Suit and POC elbow guards.

The padding in the MC-jacket I've had on in those falls are somewhere around a third of an inch thick, and I've had no problems whatsoever with that thickness, nor with the padding getting out of place. Part of the answer is of course that the jacket has layers of fabric inside the padding, or in the winter a lining, and that I've had sweaters on which provide another bit of padding. But even so, I doubt a thicker padding would help a lot, unless the padding was seriously thicker.

My reasoning here is that to make a real difference, you'd need a helmet-type combination - hard shell, semi hard crushable backing, and soft lining - to actually dampen enough force if you hit just the "wrong" way. Wrong here means in a way where the shock transfers energy straight along the bone structure. Look at @Rehab1's and @Marty Backe's accidents, and how the energy from hitting your elbows actually caused fractures way up in the shoulder.

But would people actually use protection that combines a hard shell of PC or TPU, single use crushable EPS, and a thick soft foam liner? I would end up and inch or more thick, and you'd have to throw it away, just like a helmet, if you actually fall on it.

What I aim at with elbow padding is avoiding fractures in my elbow, so that I can glide on them to manage the impact energy. The jacket has the negative of missing a hard shell to ease the gliding, but it protects my elbows enough to give me the confidence to use them the right way.

Maybe I should look into mounting some TPU pads on the outside, like the ones on my knees?

StreetKneeGuardFront.jpg.c051b0f54726e42b0ef391d12a448fc0.jpg

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On 3/12/2019 at 11:12 PM, Marty Backe said:

M/C jackets for me are a "better than nothing" solution for when I want to ride to the store, etc. I agree with you that the padding is far inferior to what I get in my Leatt 5.5 gear. But I don't want to wear the Leatt around town, etc.

When I first read this I thought, that's fair enough.  But yesterday I went for a ride, tossing a standard leather jacket and the M/C Jacket in the car.  When I started gearing up for the ride I suddenly realized that the only things I wouldn't be using with the M/C jacket was my elbow pads.  Knee pads? same.  Wrist guards? same. Head gear? same! So for the sake of pulling on 2 elbow pads I was forgoing the protection I prefer (With coverage around to the inside edge of my elbows).  Two elbow pads, maybe 20 seconds tops to pull on and adjust.  And It was easier to pull a conventional jacket over the Flexmeters, so there was some time saved there.  Then the double zippers in front, and the waist straps on the side.  I'd say (for me YMMV) I save no time putting on and adjusting a M/C jacket over pads and a jacket or just pads if an outer jacket is not necessary. And most of the time I wear nothing over my elbow pads. I don't use shoulder protection so that would be the difference in Marty's case.  But seeing as most shoulder injuries here seem to be energy transfer shocks from hard wrist or elbow impacts, I can't see how pads on the outside help this situation.

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46 minutes ago, Smoother said:

When I first read this I thought, that's fair enough.  But yesterday I went for a ride, tossing a standard leather jacket and the M/C Jacket in the car.  When I started gearing up for the ride I suddenly realized that the only things I wouldn't be using with the M/C jacket was my elbow pads.  Knee pads? same.  Wrist guards? same. Head gear? same! So for the sake of pulling on 2 elbow pads I was forgoing the protection I prefer (With coverage around to the inside edge of my elbows).  Two elbow pads, maybe 20 seconds tops to pull on and adjust.  And It was easier to pull a conventional jacket over the Flexmeters, so there was some time saved there.  Then the double zippers in front, and the waist straps on the side.  I'd say (for me YMMV) I save no time putting on and adjusting a M/C jacket over pads and a jacket or just pads if an outer jacket is not necessary. And most of the time I wear nothing over my elbow pads. I don't use shoulder protection so that would be the difference in Marty's case.  But seeing as most shoulder injuries here seem to be energy transfer shocks from hard wrist or elbow impacts, I can't see how pads on the outside help this situation.

It’s a plus getting the shoulder, back and abrasion protection.  Worth losing some in the elbows if you must.  However, some brands like Icon come with D30 standard on jackets and you can get upgraded replacement armor pieces for most other reputable jackets.  Then it comes down to fit and look.

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16 minutes ago, Dzlchef said:

It’s a plus getting the shoulder, back and abrasion protection.  Worth losing some in the elbows if you must.  However, some brands like Icon come with D30 standard on jackets and you can get upgraded replacement armor pieces for most other reputable jackets.  Then it comes down to fit and look.

Good points .  I don't think it would be too much trouble to modify my padding a bit to get the inner elbow protection I desire.  Maybe I'll have a look today.

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2 hours ago, Scatcat said:

My reasoning here is that to make a real difference, you'd need a helmet-type combination - hard shell, semi hard crushable backing, and soft lining - to actually dampen enough force if you hit just the "wrong" way.

The overpriced Areostitch suit I mentioned has memory-foam padding almost an inch thick, encased in double layered extremely dense and thick nylon. The nylon cloth alone is about 2mm thick, not foldable, and while it's not rigid it's also not easily malleable.

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18 hours ago, Smoother said:

When I first read this I thought, that's fair enough.  But yesterday I went for a ride, tossing a standard leather jacket and the M/C Jacket in the car.  When I started gearing up for the ride I suddenly realized that the only things I wouldn't be using with the M/C jacket was my elbow pads.  Knee pads? same.  Wrist guards? same. Head gear? same! So for the sake of pulling on 2 elbow pads I was forgoing the protection I prefer (With coverage around to the inside edge of my elbows).  Two elbow pads, maybe 20 seconds tops to pull on and adjust.  And It was easier to pull a conventional jacket over the Flexmeters, so there was some time saved there.  Then the double zippers in front, and the waist straps on the side.  I'd say (for me YMMV) I save no time putting on and adjusting a M/C jacket over pads and a jacket or just pads if an outer jacket is not necessary. And most of the time I wear nothing over my elbow pads. I don't use shoulder protection so that would be the difference in Marty's case.  But seeing as most shoulder injuries here seem to be energy transfer shocks from hard wrist or elbow impacts, I can't see how pads on the outside help this situation.

My Icon jacket has D3O pads for elbows shoulders and back. The trick is sizing. You should be very careful choosing the right size, so that each pad sits where it is supposed to.

For me a size XL is perfect with a sweater beneath it, with just a T-shirt I need the flexmeters on to make sure the pads sit exactly right, and a size large would probably be more exact in fit. I am 6"/195lbs, with a fairly normal build in terms of shoulder width and torso length. When choosing a non-protective jacket I normally go one size large, since I don't like too tight fitting clothes, but in MC-jackets I try to be on spot in size.

But I still prefer the MC-jacket to a normal jacket and pads, since I get the back padding and shoulder padding "for free". I've fallen sideways in a curve when I got a puncture at the exact wrong moment. I've almost been hit from behind by a stupid bicyclist that didn't keep enough distance. The day someone smashes their handle bar into my back, I really really want a D3O pad to intercept the metal pushing into my spine, same thing if I have to roll and find some large stone I didn't see barring my way. 

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6 hours ago, Scatcat said:

My Icon jacket has D3O pads for elbows shoulders and back. The trick is sizing. You should be very careful choosing the right size, so that each pad sits where it is supposed to.

For me a size XL is perfect with a sweater beneath it, with just a T-shirt I need the flexmeters on to make sure the pads sit exactly right, and a size large would probably be more exact in fit. I am 6"/195lbs, with a fairly normal build in terms of shoulder width and torso length. When choosing a non-protective jacket I normally go one size large, since I don't like too tight fitting clothes, but in MC-jackets I try to be on spot in size.

But I still prefer the MC-jacket to a normal jacket and pads, since I get the back padding and shoulder padding "for free". I've fallen sideways in a curve when I got a puncture at the exact wrong moment. I've almost been hit from behind by a stupid bicyclist that didn't keep enough distance. The day someone smashes their handle bar into my back, I really really want a D3O pad to intercept the metal pushing into my spine, same thing if I have to roll and find some large stone I didn't see barring my way. 

Wow. So you were taking a ~tight rolling corner and you got a large puncture that released air so fast that the tire got squishy and you went down? Man, that's bad luck!

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On 3/16/2019 at 3:53 PM, Marty Backe said:

Wow. So you were taking a ~tight rolling corner and you got a large puncture that released air so fast that the tire got squishy and you went down? Man, that's bad luck!

Yep, I think I used at least one of my nine Aristocat lives there ;) 

I was going in a bike lane and had to cross the road and tram tracks. Just as the bike lane turns into the road, the elevation is both negative and rather abrupt. Ten meters before the turn, I had no sense of low pressure, but just as I started the turn I felt the turn amplification of really low pressure and before I could do anything about it I was already down.

Luckily I was not going more than 10mph or so, and I managed to miss the actual tram tracks when I fell. My rims did not deform, so I could just fix the puncture and it was fine.

I think it was self caused, as I had a fairly massive leak just by the nipple, I must have managed to stretch when adjusting the tire, and caused a snake bite situation.

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