Gotway Msuper X 33MPH Crash....

[Darrell Wesh]

Background:

Just received my 84V 1600wh MSX yesterday from eWheels. I currently own an Inmotion V5+ (a cheap ebay Step n Roll was my starter wheel) and a King Song 18s. I've been EUC riding for almost two months now. I learned on the ebay step n roll in about three days, with three two hour sessions a day before I felt comforatble in public/crowds. Currently proficient in backward riding, one legged forward/back, some tricks. Max speed I've gone on my KS18s is 29MPH seated, and maybe 28MPH standing, before it felt like it was too much effort to go faster. I weigh around 177 pounds (80kg) and am extremely athletic (ran in the 2016 Olympics 100m dash). I consider myself fairly adept at riding now.

Testing:

So today was the 2nd day on it, the first day I was only able to ride for around an hour as the battery was only at 30% when I got it from eWheels. I rode around for maybe 30minutes starting off with 100% battery before going to the rubber track for some speed testing. I was concerned about not knowing the true speed limit of this wheel as others had cited their concerns about not hearing the EUC beeping while at high speeds. I keep my phone strapped to my wrist with Darknessbot so I can easily check my speed while riding. 

I decided to test out how fast I could go before hitting the 80% speed alarm, and I also to test if i could hear the beeping at speed. It was relatively dry outside, 65F degrees. I was wearing a full protective gear setup (but not my most protective):

Joe Rocket Jacket

TSG Pass Helmet

Fox Mountain Bike/Motorcross Pants

Knee Pads (my less protective knee pads with no plastic armor)

Fox Gloves (no wrist guard)

I started doing some acceleration and braking as similiar to @EUC GUY video at his track on his MSX to get a feel for the unit. On the MSX it is very physical to accelerate. The power you feel is there, but unlike the KS18s, it takes much more effort to accelerate harder to higher speeds. I either had to lean ridiculously far forward to get higher than 25MPH or push the unit forward with my knees. The stability was there, the wide tire is amazing, much better than the Ks18s Kenda tire at overall feelings of stability. (The MSX tire does want to stay upright however, and that takes getting used to for turning but nothing too new like I hear about the Z10). I did disable the 1st and 2nd speed alarms as well as eliminate tiltback through the app.

Crash:

I remember telling myself to "just go for it" and push/lean as much as possible to find out how fast it could go. I flew through the rubber track's curve at around 22 MPH before pushing hard with my knees to accelerate on the straight. I looked at my phone for a split second and saw it say 33MPH (confirmed on the app at 33.7). The wind noise was a lot at that speed and I wanted to know if the unit was beeping any. So I did the worst thing at that speed. I bent down and squatted low to see if I could hear any beeping (no beeping at that speed). Immediately, the MSX started wobbling as the squat made my muscles tense. I stood up fast but it was too late. The MSX was a Bronco Bull desperate to buck me off. I remember realizing that I couldn't stay on anymore despite my "ill go down with the ship" attitude. But the MSX bucked me off the pedals and one foot was now off to the side in the air, and soon the other foot.

I'm pretty fast (clocking at 24MPH), but at those speeds I knew i couldn't even attempt to run this off. The wobbles had given me a split moment to decide my fate. I choose to just fall and trust in my gear instead of try a desperate running bailout. I always fall on my left side(no matter what device im on) and this was no different. Except for the first time i actually hit my knee. HARD. Then I remember rolling 3 or 4 times and amazingly pushing myself up and running off the rest of the momentum. The MSX didn't go flying that far, probably because it wasn't a cutout but it had had time to continue wheeling before crashing. I attached photos of the damage mostly to the front by the headlight. And one of the cheap side pads went flying off (easily put back on though). No structural damage (but of course this was on a rubber track...) 

I sustained what I hope is just a mild bruise on my left knee (its a little swollen and painful as of now) and I'll make sure to wear my plastic armored knee pads for future rides as I know if this had been concrete those foam pads would not have held out at all(they are fine, but the foam caved in and seems to be gone!). I have the ones @Marty Backe wears. I had no wrist guards on but my wrist is fine, the left is just slightly achy from an existing wrist injury I sustained at work. No abrasion or road rash. I didn't feel any impact on my upper body, maybe it was because the full impact was on my knee or an excellent jacket.

Anyways, after the fall I STILL went riding for another 30 minutes. Through 25-35mph roads. I was hitting 29-31MPH quite comfortably and I really believe the only reason I fell was because I squatted down to try and hear the beeps. With the immense effort of pushing forward or leaning forward to go +27MPH on this thing I don't think I'll be hitting a cutout from excess speed at all. Maybe I'll get used to the larger lean angles and go faster, but I think this thing could take my 177lbs north of 35 MPH. On a side note, I did a lift test and my app registered cut off speed at 44.9 MPH.... some people have gotten it to say 47 MPH?? It's weird though because unlike the ks18s you have to lift it at an angle to make it spin crazy, just straight up and it only spins real slow or not at all.

Currently elevating and icing my knee, post 3 hours and I can still stand and walk on it but going up stairs is a little painful as is squatting.

 

 

[Marty Backe]

Fun story to read, and I'm glad that you're basically OK. Yeah, definitely dump any protection that doesn't have the hard plastic shell!

At least now you don't have to worry about babying your wheel since you've christened it 

I know the hard accelerations can be fun, but you'll probably realize at some point it's not worth the risk. I know the acceleration didn't cause this fall, but hard accelerations are the most stressful for the wheel. If it's going to cutout due to lack of power, that's when it's going to happen. 2-years in, I'm an easy-going accelerator now.

Enjoy it now before your brain turns you into a fearful accelerator 

[mrelwood]

Yes, the squat-wobbles. Thank goodness you had so many things going for you to make the crash a more minor one!

Something that caught my eye is that you feel that it takes a lot of effort to go past 27mph on the MSX. How far back are your feet positioned? To make it easier on my legs and feet I stand forward enough so that I can maintain a travel speed without tiring my calves and feet. This makes the rear end of my shoes line up with the rear end of the pedals, which often is recommended as a starting point.

I would stand forward even more, but that makes fast braking very unstable or even impossible.

[RockyTop]

@Darrell Wesh  Welcome, It's an honor to have you. It should not be hard to get the wheel to go fast. You do not bend at the waist. You should bend at the ankles and knees. I know you said you are pretty good at riding and I am certainly not going to question your athletic abilities to adapt quickly but I do suggest that you watch the Chooch YouTube videos and pay attention to his positioning. Watch where he places his weight to perform his turns and hit obstacles or ever turn his body to look behind him.  I an amazed at how I learn more every month. 

58 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

Yes, the squat-wobbles. Thank goodness you had so many things going for you to make the crash a more minor one!

Something that caught my eye is that you feel that it takes a lot of effort to go past 27mph on the MSX. How far back are your feet positioned? To make it easier on my legs and feet I stand forward enough so that I can maintain a travel speed without tiring my calves and feet. This makes the rear end of my shoes line up with the rear end of the pedals, which often is recommended as a starting point.

I would stand forward even more, but that makes fast braking very unstable or even impossible.

You have a MSX and size 13 shoe?  Do I remember correctly ?

[Ipsiain]

have you timed a 100m dash on your wheel to try and beat your p.b.?  Id imagine crossing the line at full speed might be an issue 

[ED209]

@Darrell Wesh, Good to have an ex Olympian 100m sprinter on this forum, what's your pb for the 100? 

Leaning too far forward and squatting will always bring the wobbles. If you look at the EUC manual booklets they always advise us to stay on top of the unicycle and accelerate by shifting the centre of gravity of your body on the EUC.I am sure you already know this. Kingsong and Gotway wheels ride differently. With EUC, you learn something new everyday. Glad you didn't hurt yourself. Go easy! 

 

[Acturbo]

2 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

Fun story to read, and I'm glad that you're basically OK. Yeah, definitely dump any protection that doesn't have the hard plastic shell!

At least now you don't have to worry about babying your wheel since you've christened it 

I know the hard accelerations can be fun, but you'll probably realize at some point it's not worth the risk. I know the acceleration didn't cause this fall, but hard accelerations are the most stressful for the wheel. If it's going to cutout due to lack of power, that's when it's going to happen. 2-years in, I'm an easy-going accelerator now.

Enjoy it now before your brain turns you into a fearful accelerator 

+1 on gradual acceleration Marty.  Learned this the hard way but unless it's an emergency gradual acceleration is def the way to go for more than one reason....................

[Rehab1]

5 hours ago, Darrell Wesh said:

Crash:

So glad your ok! When I quickly glanced at  ‘33 MPH Crash’ and then your name.... it first looked like Death Wish.  Darrell Wesh....Darrell Wesh....got it.  

[Darrell Wesh]

4 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Something that caught my eye is that you feel that it takes a lot of effort to go past 27mph on the MSX. How far back are your feet positioned? To make it easier on my legs and feet I stand forward enough so that I can maintain a travel speed without tiring my calves and feet. This makes the rear end of my shoes line up with the rear end of the pedals, which often is recommended as a starting point.

I would stand forward even more, but that makes fast braking very unstable or even impossible.

My feet are positioned with the very back of my heels on the back of the pedals(no heel overhang). Toes overhand in the front, as on the msuper it feels better for accelerating. On my Ks18s I put my feet in the middle with equal heel and toe overhang since that accelerates effortlessly. 

What are your thoughts on the msx effort to accelerate? My thoughts are that Acceleration is good, but you have to put the effort in to get it. 

[Darrell Wesh]

3 hours ago, RockyTop said:

@Darrell Wesh  Welcome, It's an honor to have you. It should not be hard to get the wheel to go fast. You do not bend at the waist. You should bend at the ankles and knees. I know you said you are pretty good at riding and I am certainly not going to question your athletic abilities to adapt quickly but I do suggest that you watch the Chooch YouTube videos and pay attention to his positioning. Watch where he places his weight to perform his turns and hit obstacles or ever turn his body to look behind him

I’ve watched a lot of chooch! I think it’s just me getting used to gotway wheels as this is my first true “normal” 18”+ wheel. The Ks18s with the tall body shell is very different from the usual shorter body shells. Also I was being careless and squatting, especially careles since it was at a speed I had never been at before.

This was my second EUC fall. I always wear gear because I care about my body haha; the first fall was on the Ks18s where I was going through grass around 12mph and about to get out of the grass onto sidewalk when what looked to be a short curb was actually far deeper. That made my wheel come to a dead stop but sent me flying. Had to replace the inner tube as well from that m as the tire went flat instantly. I Had no damage from that and the Ks18s tank shell suffered nothing. 

[Darrell Wesh]

3 hours ago, Ipsiain said:

have you timed a 100m dash on your wheel to try and beat your p.b.?  Id imagine crossing the line at full speed might be an issue 

That’s a funny idea haha. My friend has a Ks14s (18.6mph) so I might just race that and make a video : )

No way I’d beat the super or Ks18s! My personal best is 10.04 seconds. 

[RockyTop]

Got it. Yes the MSuper does take a little more effort. It has more power but you have to squeeze the wheel and pry it over or place one foot forward and one back. ( one foot is the gas pedal the other brake) takes some practice. Be carful though. 

[Darrell Wesh]

5 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

Fun story to read, and I'm glad that you're basically OK. Yeah, definitely dump any protection that doesn't have the hard plastic shell!

At least now you don't have to worry about babying your wheel since you've christened it 

I know the hard accelerations can be fun, but you'll probably realize at some point it's not worth the risk. I know the acceleration didn't cause this fall, but hard accelerations are the most stressful for the wheel. If it's going to cutout due to lack of power, that's when it's going to happen. 2-years in, I'm an easy-going accelerator now.

Enjoy it now before your brain turns you into a fearful accelerator 

@Marty Backe oh I’ll still baby it!! I plan on using my car paint polish to tidy it up. I wish it was a gloss paint job like my other two wheels. Waxed and always cleaned after a ride ? my INMOTION v5 I practice tricks on so I have the cover for that but I like how it looks without it so every once in a while I touch it up with black paint and then buff it with car polish and then wax. Gotta keep your wheels clean!

[Michael Vu]

Damn hopefully your knee isn't too bad. Glad that it seems everything else is fine with the gear protecting you. Just curious, how often do you ride on the rubber track? My experience from riding on it is that any wheel will not be as responsive on a rubber track than actual asphalt road, but then again I haven't ridden the MSuperX that much.

[dieterGRAMS]

Ah man, Wrist guards are always a must. Bare minimum imo. Glad you're good tho. 

I think this is a common theme where people are getting spooked by not hearing a beeper from the MSX. Its there tho! I've heard it on rare occasions 

[mrelwood]

10 hours ago, RockyTop said:

You have a MSX and size 13 shoe?  Do I remember correctly ?

I guess EU46 translates to US13, yes. Surprisingly the heel-to-the-edge theory seems to work rather well for all shoe sizes.

6 hours ago, Darrell Wesh said:

What are your thoughts on the msx effort to accelerate? My thoughts are that Acceleration is good, but you have to put the effort in to get it. 

I absolutely agree. First feeling was disappointment. Over all the MSX is a very physical wheel compared to an old Msuper V3, the X requires a lot more weight shifting for the same end result. I think the overly stiff software doesn’t translate well to a wheel this size. KS medium mode lets the pedals tilt slightly immediately, while the MSX fights back and tries to counteract your weight shifting right away.

MSX medium mode is no different, as it is also rock hard and only starts tilting slowly a lot after you start to accelerate. Like a slowly rocking boat.

For this reason angled side pads are a must on the MSX. I went DIY, but EUC GUY sells some.

Only after 1000km or so I started to find an area of unleashed accelerating power. I think it’s when I finally manage to tilt the MSX forwards a bit, and the software goes all in to keep it upright. It’s like a turbo engaging, very powerful! But it takes a lot of effort to get out even for a short while.

Too bad the tire is not at all suitable for wet nature. It would make the MSX a true king of EUCs in the woods.

[Darrell Wesh]

What tire pressure do you guys use? I have it at 37psi or 2.55 bar. 

[Zenko]

16 hours ago, Darrell Wesh said:

I really believe the only reason I fell was because I squatted down to try and hear the beeps

Yes indeed, had this experience as well on my ACM16, when you squat down, you release pressure on the wheel with your legs, we tend to spread legs when we squat, that's kind of natural. You can try again by consciously squeezing your legs, while going down, you'll keep your stability, but this is risky to do at high speed, the tiny pressure release kills your stability and throw you off.

Since I wasn't really going fast, I didn't fall, but had the fearing wobble while trying this for the first time.

Good to know your fall is from a little pilot mistake, and you didn't get any injuries.

[RockyTop]

3 hours ago, Darrell Wesh said:

What tire pressure do you guys use? I have it at 37psi or 2.55 bar. 

At 170 pounds the chart says 33 psi is the minimum. I think you are about right. I think you can go as high as 45 psi

One mistake that people make is trusting the auto fill feature on the automatic air pumps. They do pump up to the proper pressure but when you remove the filler you lose a lot of pressure. The screw on type are the worst but the clamp type lose more than I would have expected.

[Charles McLean]

Glad you're ok!  Stay safe!  Thank goodness you were wearing the appropriate safety gear.  Many people learn that lesson the hard way.  I highly recommend wrist guards.  They've saved me from a broken wrist once and saved the skin on my palms several times.  Good luck!

[LanghamP]

A crash that you walk away from like in your case is a good crash.

Squatting is odd; the first couple of times I squatted deeply in order to turn on the lights of my KS16S I did wobble a lot, but then in order to figure out why this was so I wobbled less and less until, finally, I didn't wobble at all.

In other words, by squatting many times to try to get my wheel to wobble, I stopped wobbling without before understanding what causes the wobble in the first place.

Therefore, I think squat wobbles are probably just rider-induced oscillations that can be practiced away in mere minutes, similar to sitting on your EUC (I don't sit).

[mrelwood]

14 hours ago, Darrell Wesh said:

What tire pressure do you guys use? I have it at 37psi or 2.55 bar. 

2.7 bars (+- gauge offset) is the sweet spot for me between easy tight turns, effortless gliding, and comfort. I weigh a hair under 200lbs. I use a mechanical gauge that doesn’t let any air out when removed, but it is calibrated only to the local automatic gas station pumps.

The pressure is very picky for me on the MSX; 2.6 and it gets hard to turn, 2.8 and the small bumps get uncomfortable.

[Hunka Hunka Burning Love]

10.16 in the 100 m?    Sweet.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darrell_Wesh

I’m 167 lbs, and I used to run 60 psi on my Tesla.  That might have been too much maybe, but it worked well for me until I hit some sidewalk bumps too fast.  Maybe 50-55 would have been better.

[SanDiegoGuy]

Wow, Darrell Wesh, you did 10.16 in the 100 m dash.  That is fast.  I was in track and field when I was in high school and my 100 yard dash (not 100 m) was 10.45 sec.  I also did long jump and triple jump and 440 relay.  Those were the good old times.

[Darrell Wesh]

3 hours ago, mrelwood said:

2.7 bars (+- gauge offset) is the sweet spot for me between easy tight turns, effortless gliding, and comfort. I weigh a hair under 200lbs. I use a mechanical gauge that doesn’t let any air out when removed, but it is calibrated only to the local automatic gas station pumps.

The pressure is very picky for me on the MSX; 2.6 and it gets hard to turn, 2.8 and the small bumps get uncomfortable.

Just did 2.7 bar and it’s WAY easier to turn and no longer feels like it’s dragging. Much more responsive! I had previously knocked it down to 2.3 bar to see what it was like and it was difficult to turn but I thought it was just the wider tires fault.