2018 who is getting what this year......?

[Scott Henley]

1 hour ago, outcast00096 said:

You forgot the OneWheel, bro.

Well , given my long list of purchases the obewhymight have to wait a while unless I want a divorce.

Wouldnt guess you knew any single ladies interested in a freshly divorced guy with a huge ....................

euc collection would you? ?

[outcast00096]

LOL, that's a euphemism, right? Ladies like a guy who rides EUC's and Onewheels.  

[WARPed1701D]

12 minutes ago, outcast00096 said:

LOL, that's a euphemism, right? Ladies like a guy who rides EUC's and Onewheels.  

@LanghamP once postulated that by exhibiting the superior motor and balance skills required to ride an EUC women would be begging to bear you biological fruit and secure access to your clear genetic superiority. And @LanghamPknows all when it comes to women. 

[Holt]

new kingsong 18s - my 2018 purchase.  looking forward to many long rides in beautiful North Carolina this year.

[electricpen]

Well, I have an ACM2 coming already to replace my heavily damaged KS16s so that will be my first wheel of 2018. Past that I think I am still looking for a large wheel but I'm content to wait and see what comes of this next generation of wheels this year. The Z10, KS18L, MSuper VS3+ + Tesla motor, and potentially Gotway 20" wheel and any others are all on the list but I'd probably only get one of these so I'm waiting a bit to see what actually ships and see what people think of these wheels before deciding.

[Demargon]

I need help. I already hapy with my v5f, but don't looks very nice. Should I change the shell or maybe there is time to change euc?

I love the big wheels and intended to use off road but I need something light weight, high pedals and minimum shell surface (wheel exposed) 

Maybe the ninebot (edit: z10) z6 is the winner. What do you think?

 

[Marty Backe]

16 minutes ago, Demargon said:

I need help. I already hapy with my v5f, but don't looks very nice. Should I change the shell or maybe there is time to change euc?

I love the big wheels and intended to use off road but I need something light weight, high pedals and minimum shell surface (wheel exposed) 

Maybe the ninebot z10 is the winner. What do you think?

 

I know of no wheels that meet your criteria 

[FreeRide]

On 2/14/2018 at 1:01 PM, dmethvin said:

The problem seems to be that once you put a bunch of 18650 in series to get high voltages you end up needing to parallel a few to have an acceptable internal resistance so the voltage slump won't be too bad. So we end up with a ton of cells again, which leads us back to big heavy battery packs. Plus we're losing all the space used between packed cylindrical batteries. So maybe we need a new form factor other than 18650 to fix this. It's just hard to overcome a popular form factor, even the Tesla cars use it.

They could start by switching to 21700 Cells, these wheels need to be on the latest tech.  

[US69]

32 minutes ago, FreeRide said:

They could start by switching to 21700 Cells, these wheels need to be on the latest tech.  

These cells dont bring that much of an advantage...Yes, the range (mah) is sligtly higher, but unfortunatly only that higher in percentage than the weight and volume...

In the end its the same battery tech...means that for a certain volume/weight you get the same energy density than on a 18650 cell.

[FreeRide]

9 minutes ago, KingSong69 said:

These cells dont bring that much of an advantage...Yes, the range (mah) is sligtly higher, but unfortunatly only that higher in percentage than the weight and volume...

In the end its the same battery tech...means that for a certain volume/weight you get the same energy density than on a 18650 cell.

That is incorrect.  They are new tech because they have a higher power density.  The size increase, in volume, is less than their increase in capacity.  Having almost a 50% increase in capacity from a mAh specification they may achieve even more than that in real world use if the good cells are used.  This means it is possible to create a nice EUC maybe with less parallel packs if one wants to reduce bulk, with a lower loss in capacity that may be acceptable.  Some other would not care about the increase in bulk say on a big wheel for a 50% increase in capacity.  They can also support a faster charge rate, so the extra capacity does not increase recharge time if a good charger is used.  So they may not be a big miracle, but they do bring many advantages, depending on the desired end result.  There are few others options these days that are suitable for EUCs, but hopefully they are coming as the technologies are refined for consumer use.

 

[Chriull]

47 minutes ago, FreeRide said:

They could start by switching to 21700 Cells, these wheels need to be on the latest tech.  

 

13 minutes ago, KingSong69 said:

These cells dont bring that much of an advantage...Yes, the range (mah) is sligtly higher, but unfortunatly only that higher in percentage than the weight and volume...

In the end its the same battery tech...means that for a certain volume/weight you get the same energy density than on a 18650 cell.

The 20700, as used in the slim ?i5? Wheel could bring some advandage. Also if the capacity just raises proportional to weight/volume they have also a higher nominal current. So theoretically they could offer more capacity for the same load compared to a 18650 with less nominal current. But this idea has the be looked at in detail with discharge curves like at dampfakkus.de

[US69]

I dont see that...

The best 21700 cells(high draw capable) now deliver 4250mh instead of 3500 for a 18650 cell.

Thats nearly exaclty the same percentage "plus" what they are bigger, or have more volume! As its also the same chemistry.....no new invention here...

Yes, they can deliver a 50% rise in amps, 15 Amps instead of 10amps than our 3500mah cells. So they are good for such wheels like the I5.

A small wheel with only one parallel system. For that usage they are great!

But whats the purpose on our long range wheels like 18S, v3s+?

On this wheels, you might be able to bring the 18650 6p or 8p parallel setup down by 2 to a 4p or 6p setup.....just to have the exact same weigth and volume as before and also the same amp draw capability.

 

So (for me) they dont bring that great advantage, at least  not for the type of wheel i prefer riding.

 

[houseofjob]

@FreeRide Maybe in the future 21700 cells can be engineered to be more energy dense than 18650s, 

..... but.... AFAICS, with the current production cells able to be purchased,

@KingSong69 is right, 18650s are still more energy dense (plus more cost efficient) than 21700s. MJ1's are still the king of energy density.

 

Samsung 48G 21700 4800mAh

• Weight: 67.4g
• 71.22 mah/g

 

LG MJ1 18650 3500mAh

• Weight: 46.9g
• 74.63 mah/g

Sanyo NCR18650GA 3500mAh

& Sony VC7 18650 3500mAh

• Weight: 47.1g
• 74.31 mah/g

Samsung 35E 18650 3500mAh

• Weight: 47.9g
• 73.07 mah/g

 

[FreeRide]

2 hours ago, houseofjob said:

@FreeRide Maybe in the future 21700 cells can be engineered to be more energy dense than 18650s, 

..... but.... AFAICS, with the current production cells able to be purchased,

@KingSong69 is right, 18650s are still more energy dense (plus more cost efficient) than 21700s. MJ1's are still the king of energy density.

 

Samsung 48G 21700 4800mAh

• Weight: 67.4g
• 71.22 mah/g

 

LG MJ1 18650 3500mAh

• Weight: 46.9g
• 74.63 mah/g

Sanyo NCR18650GA 3500mAh

& Sony VC7 18650 3500mAh

• Weight: 47.1g
• 74.31 mah/g

Samsung 35E 18650 3500mAh

• Weight: 47.9g
• 73.07 mah/g

 

You are looking at weight... look at volume.

[FreeRide]

2 hours ago, KingSong69 said:

I dont see that...

The best 21700 cells(high draw capable) now deliver 4250mh instead of 3500 for a 18650 cell.

....

4800mAh for consumer available ones.  And none of the 3500mAh cells actually reach that in EUC applications or most any application.  The 4800 mAh cells probably don't either I can't remember right now, but they will come closer to their spec just because of their discharge specifications.  You are not going to gain on all fronts, but you can adjust the configuration to take advantage of them for some designs.  If you have the space, then I think you win across the board.

[US69]

8 minutes ago, FreeRide said:

4800mAh for consumer available ones.  And none of the 3500mAh cells actually reach that in EUC applications or most any application.  The 4800 mAh cells probably don't either I can't remember right now, but they will come closer to their spec just because of their discharge specifications.  You are not going to gain on all fronts, but you can adjust the configuration to take advantage of them for some designs.  If you have the space, then I think you win across the board.

Yip...at 2-3 times the price for one cell, you get 30% more range at 25% more volumen and weight.

Where is the benefit? It is just the same cell chemistry,  so i cant be better than the 18650  in power density.

Thats at least my opinion....

 

[FreeRide]

8 minutes ago, KingSong69 said:

.... It is just the same cell chemistry,  so i cant be better than the 18650  in power density.

...

 

Do some research, they didn't switch to the 21700 format for nothing. 

[US69]

3 minutes ago, FreeRide said:

Do some research, they didn't switch to the 21700 format for nothing. 

You are free to explain.....i am always willing to learn something!

So what chemistry is it then? Is it a totally new invention of battery technologie? Or just the same as before in a bigger envelope, and they just switch to it as it has some advantages in using the space that is needed in the automobile industry?

What still stays is that it is bout 2,5 to 3 times more expensive than a top notch 18650 3500mah cell by only providing 30% more energy, at least as long as the buyer dont has the name "Tesla".

 

 

[houseofjob]

@FreeRide I'm just as willing to learn as @KingSong69 is, but I've yet to hear an argument here backed up with factual data to change my mind.

[FreeRide]

Making up your own mind is good.  Considering Samsung, Panasonic, and Tesla have long range plans to manufacture this cell, one might want to consider their starting position though. Of course every device makes engineering compromises at every level.  

No company gives their precise chemistry and many companies actually use even the basic chemistry designators IMR/INR/etc. without regard to their original designation.  They may use an incorrect one because they think the cell has performance characteristics similar to that basic chemistry. The switch to 21700 though has nothing to do basically with chemistry although it may have been helped by it.  Take 18350 cells, 1/2 the volume of 18650 cells ... they don't have 1/2 the capacity, at the very best they have 1/3 the capacity and very different discharge performance.  

Performance is not just about the mAh capacity rating, and when put into an application it gets even more complex.  One should start my looking at the Wh capacity of the battery, but one must look at the power (W) delivered over the typical discharge in it's intended application.

Take the Samsung 48G  since it is the only one with a bit of leaked information out there,  It has discharge specs close to a 18650 GA interns of typical; GA roughly 10A typical, G48 9.9A.  A GA is spec'd at typical 3350mAh at 1.5C I believe, and the 48G is listed at 4700mAh.  I would find people who have done real discharge curves though as the spec sheets for both are dated, and EUCs typically use more than 1-1.5C discharge.   On the face of it though that start at a 40% advantage for the 21700 (48G), and it does not have a 40% increase in volume.

Pricing is always a valid point, but that depends on many things and we're not privy to the deals that some manufactures can get.  the GA is a relatively inexpensive cell really because Panasonic has the manufacturing down good.  Currently by the piece a 48G does cost double a GA shopping with proper wholesalers.  For manufactures though it is impossible to say.  Strictly speaking this discussion is not about cost, but real performance in an EUC. A difficult thing to calculate.

The GA is a good starting-point battery in a multi-parallel pack.  Still most battery packs opt for cheaper batteries.  I don't think I've seen one EUC with a confirmed top rated battery for high discharge and high power delivery for the main part of it's discharge curve at say 10-20A.  Cells like the HG2, VTC6, and even the 30Q.  Although I suspect the 30Q may be used in some.  So the price compared to 18650 I think is only relevant when comparing specific batteries and packs actually used.

There is a lot of information out there, but there is a lot that is not said.  However.... follow the money as they say.  Checkout the discharges for the 48G, it lives up to it's specs.  To me that is better, and yes it may cost more.  It's not for every pack.  Some of the more recent packs that do use 21700 for bikes and such tend to use lower capacity varieties because they want a typical higher discharge capability.  To them it's a good tradeoff, and the overall performance meets their design goals.  The 48G though looks like a good replacement for a design that is optimized for GA cells.

This is not intended to convince anyone of anything , but maybe people will find something to think about. 

 

[dmethvin]

We're kind of limited because we have to series enough batteries to get up to 50+ volts. With the increased current draw allowed by 21700 cells it's possible we could use lower voltages but we've seen what happens when the wires elsewhere aren't thick enough so I think higher voltages are here to stay. I'd also be extremely worried about dropping down to just one series pack and not having a parallel set to provide some redundancy in case of battery issues. So it seems like the 21700 isn't really solving the problem although it might marginally increase range or current surge capacity.

[yourtoys7]

we hear that Gotway may have Msuper V4....... interesting, 

maybe new 20" wheel............ interesting, 

for sure, Ninebot Z10 coming, one of the wheel to have, 

So, here is the plan, Z10, Testla/ Msuper v4/ new Monster or the 20" gotway wheel, 

 

[claudioagmfilho]

I have a KS 16s, and I want to buy a second wheel, I don’t like tesla, I think they are cheaply made, so maybe the 18L

why is this tendency of thicker wheels? 

I think I prefer the thinner wheels they are more agile... 

I don’t want another 16’ wheel so, I am thinking of the 18L or maybe the z10...

 

[Marty Backe]

9 minutes ago, claudioagmfilho said:

I have a KS 16s, and I want to buy a second wheel, I don’t like tesla, I think they are cheaply made, so maybe the 18L

why is this tendency of thicker wheels? 

I think I prefer the thinner wheels they are more agile... 

I don’t want another 16’ wheel so, I am thinking of the 18L or maybe the z10...

 

The Mten3 has a 3-inch tire and it's the most agile wheel on the planet. I think agility is more a function of wheel diameter and motor torque than wheel thickness.

I agree with your choice. You should exhaust all of the different wheel diameters before getting a second wheel of the same diameter.

If you're going to buy a wheel sight unseen, I'd buy the 18L because of its pedigree. The Z10 is more of an unknown.  However, I am buying a Z10 because it's very unique and I already have a 18L type wheel (the MSuper - a fantastic wheel IMHO). 

[UniVehje]

Are there any new 16” wheels coming this year? Seems like all the new stuff is towards 18” or even 20”. 

I’ve been riding with Ninebot one S2 for a while now and looking to upgrade. So far KS 16S seems like the right choice. Z10 seems interesting but I’m worried it might be too big. I’d like to take the wheel inside shops, bars and trams etc. I like the size of the S2.