My KS18S Review and Ongoing Observations

[US69]

1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

No, unfortunately I did not record any voltage. I wasn't in a troubleshooting mode, just doing a brute range test.

I"m still not convinced that there's a problem with the KS18S. I'm waiting for a response from @KingSong69 (or anyone else) to see if they have actually done a continuous 100% to 10% range test like I did. Not a 20-mile (32-km) ride and than extrapolate to a theoretical range. I don't believe those kind of numbers.

The only numbers that I'll believe from someone else is if they do a continuous full battery drain range test like I did. I certainly can't be the only one that can ride continuously for 40+ miles???

Like i said in the PM...my numbers are not extrapolated.

Mostly i drive down my 18S to 35-40% and have about 65- 75km...the most was going down to 20-25% and having about 90km. That goes with the experiences of the guys from the French Forum.

Its NOT extrapolating a 10% ride....

 

In the end ...i only want to defend the 18S from having a "worse consumption" rate than other wheels!

We all know that the producer values for our wheels are more or less a bad joke! Divide them by 2 and you are good to go. I just can NOT see the 18S any worse than any other wheel i owned. Then i have to disagree! In the end ALL of my wheels have been consuming about 12-18wh per km....whatever wheel it was, whatever Voltage it had...

 

 

[Marty Backe]

4 minutes ago, KingSong69 said:

Like i said in the PM...my numbers are not extrapolated.

Mostly i drive down my 18S to 35-40% and have about 65- 75km...the most was going down to 20-25% and having about 90km. That goes with the experiences of the guys from the French Forum.

Its NOT extrapolating a 10% ride....

 

In the end ...i only want to defend the 18S from having a "worse consumption" rate than other wheels!

We all know that the producer values for our wheels are more or less a bad joke! Divide them by 2 and you are good to go. I just can NOT see the 18S any worse than any other wheel i owned. Then i have to disagree! In the end ALL of my wheels have been consuming about 12-18wh per km....whatever wheel it was, whatever Voltage it had...

 

 

For the purposes of people reading this Forum, could you please address the elevation change that I have mentioned multiple times. What are the elevation conditions behind the range numbers that you are giving. From my chart above you can see the elevation change that is occurring over the 42-miles that I was riding. It's not flat ground.

Richard Layman, as reported in the video above, used 66% of his battery to go 33-miles. Not on flat ground. His numbers are closer to mine. This makes me think that there's nothing wrong with my battery, it's just the riding conditions are different from yours.

[US69]

Unfortunatly i cant give any elevation changes, as i dont track them on my rides.

And "for the purpose of people reading that forum", what makes this numbers suspicious or "unbelievable" bad...is/are not the number of 42 miles alone! It is the fact that on the EXACT SAME ride the Acm needed only 900-950wh, while the 18S is supposed to use 1650wh! That is something where i say : nope thats not possible, something must be defect, or whatever!

The ACm -as a 16inch wheel- might have a slightly bit better consumption, as it doesnt have to move such a wheel mass and accelerates more easy. But not that large of a advantage! Yes, if the ACM needs 900wh, another wheel/the 18S might need 1000/1100wh...but not nearly 1700wh.

Thats why i say something might be mushy....i dont know the exact ride/road...but what i know is that 16/18inch GW/KS dont have that much of a different consumption...at least not from my experience.

[Marty Backe]

12 minutes ago, KingSong69 said:

Unfortunatly i cant give any elevation changes, as i dont track them on my rides.

And "for the purpose of people reading that forum", what makes this numbers suspicious or "unbelievable" bad...is/are not the number of 42 miles alone! It is the fact that on the EXACT SAME ride the Acm needed only 900-950wh, while the 18S is supposed to use 1650wh! That is something where i say : nope thats not possible, something must be defect, or whatever!

The ACm -as a 16inch wheel- might have a slightly bit better consumption, as it doesnt have to move such a wheel mass and accelerates more easy. But not that large of a advantage! Yes, if the ACM needs 900wh, another wheel/the 18S might need 1000/1100wh...but not nearly 1700wh.

Thats why i say something might be mushy....i dont know the exact ride/road...but what i know is that 16/18inch GW/KS dont have that much of a different consumption...at least not from my experience.

You don't know anything about your elevation changes??? Do you live in a basically flat area. I think elevation changes can have a big impact.

But I agree that the most suspicious item is the difference in performance between the ACM and the KS18S. Yet you've never ridden (for many hundreds of miles) an 84-volt wheel.

I take that back - you have your Tesla, and I seem to recall how you said that it had great efficiency. You gave me the impression that you thought it was more efficient than other 67-volt wheels.

Just maybe, the 84-volt Gotway wheels are more efficient than you think they are.

Someday maybe another KS18S user will do a true range test although I'm beginning to think most people never do one (they just extrapolate the numbers based on a shorter ride).

I guess I'm unusual that I can ride continuously for 50-miles so these range tests are easy for me to do.

[mezzanine]

3 hours ago, KingSong69 said:

What Watthour version do you have? The Consumption of the 18S should in average go to 16wh per km...perhaps 20wh when stressing the wheel. But not more! Those numbers are btw just comparable if you are doing long trips...Steady braking and accelerating are the worst power consumers....

That all is not meant as offense in anyway...but Sorry.

Even the 840wh 14S has done 42miles. If i have a wheel double that battery, and it would only do the same mileage, something is wrong or suspicious! Especially that the ACm has done the same ride with 300-350wh left. Yes, perhaps the efficeny is a "bit" better or worse...(i personally found 84V less efficient) but certainly not on the factor 2 or with numbers that would work out to 25wh per km. Thats just to much of a difference. Btw. Doing the math for the ACM also works out to 15-16wh per km. That are the normal numbers for  nearly every GW and KS wheel. 42miles/67km for a 1680wh battery pack = 25/26wh, thats just to much, i am doing such a range and have minimum 40% battery left.

i Dont know exactly how much 18S owners are on the French Forum, but there should be some more then here....and they btw all report the same consumption numbers 

 

Mine is 1680wh. 

I understand Marty's desire to be as precise and measured as possible in analyzing this question because it's the only method that can provide definitive answers.  I may try to do a range test of my own and will post the results if I do. 

@eddiemoy is the only poster on either forum with an 840wh version and he would surely have noticed any reduced capacity and posted about it.  It's safe to conclude his wheel is operating within expectation for that capacity, but I hope he chimes in. 

[Marty Backe]

8 minutes ago, mezzanine said:

Mine is 1680wh. 

I understand Marty's desire to be as precise and measured as possible in analyzing this question because it's the only method that can provide definitive answers.  I may try to do a range test of my own and will post the results if I do. 

@eddiemoy is the only poster on either forum with an 840wh version and he would surely have noticed any reduced capacity and posted about it.  It's safe to conclude his wheel is operating within expectation for that capacity, but I hope he chimes in. 

Yes, please chime in if you ever do a range test.

@eddiemoy, have you done a range test on your KS18S. What numbers did you get?

[mezzanine]

While I agree with the reasoning behind wanting more precise data for comparison, I'm not so quick to dismiss @outcast00096 or my own subjective observations that seem to agree with Marty's result.  I'd again point out that I was immediately concerned about my battery capacity upon getting the wheel.  My observation seemed outside the margin-of-error, regardless of specific numbers to confirm the belief.

[WARPed1701D]

@Marty Backe As the 18S is of great interest to me this thread is proving an invaluable source of information. I'll be happy to send you my Charge Doctor and pay for return shipping when you are done to determine if the battery is operating correctly. Let me know if interested. I'll remove all charge limitations and reset the Wh counter. All you'll need to do is empty the battery and then charge the wheel to full with the CD inline between the charger and the wheel. Record the Wh amount when done. 

@Jason McNeil or @KingSong69. What is the 0% voltage on the KS16S? As proven with my V8 just because a pack has x amount of Wh available the wheel will never drain it flat. I only get 420Wh from my 480Wh pack with 68V (84v wheel) being considered empty. 

[mezzanine]

19 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Someday maybe another KS18S user will do a true range test although I'm beginning to think most people never do one (they just extrapolate the numbers based on a shorter ride).

I guess I'm unusual that I can ride continuously for 50-miles so these range tests are easy for me to do.

Definitely.  My own experience is that, even though I believed I sensed something abnormal with the range I was getting, once you're over 1000wh, most people won't really care or concern themselves.  That's why I could imagine this issue existing without anyone raising it before. 

 

[outcast00096]

@Marty Backe , how do you set up your tests? If you're willing to go 1% then I must think that you have a backup plan to get home or to your car. In my rides, I go straight from the house. I'd love to a range test... More on that later, I deleted a response that basically said my 22-mile ride was a warm up to me seeing if I could actually make the 38 miles to work on the KS18 because, theoretically, based on the numbers quoted, I should with 12 miles to spare. If i ran to 1% in my current testing style I'd be stuck out in the middle of nowhere with a 45 lb paper weight.

[US69]

12 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

You don't know anything about your elevation changes??? Do you live in a basically flat area. I think elevation changes can have a big impact.

But I agree that the most suspicious item is the difference in performance between the ACM and the KS18S. Yet you've never ridden (for many hundreds of miles) an 84-volt wheel.

I take that back - you have your Tesla, and I seem to recall how you said that it had great efficiency. You gave me the impression that you thought it was more efficient than other 67-volt wheels.

Just maybe, the 84-volt Gotway wheels are more efficient than you think they are.

Someday maybe another KS18S user will do a true range test although I'm beginning to think most people never do one (they just extrapolate the numbers based on a shorter ride).

I guess I'm unusual that I can ride continuously for 50-miles so these range tests are easy for me to do.

no, i am not living in a totally flat area :-) I is just that i dont track that ....

Yes, the Tesla has -from what i recognized until now- a very nice efficiency. I dont think that can be adopted for the other, older GW 84v  wheels.

Especially when i hear about 65miles on a 2400wh Monster ;-) Doesnt seam like great efficiency....

 

The link i provided to the French Forum, Phillippe Chiu, he is commuting with his 18S all the time and that on a really "long" commute/range. He has also provided videos about that!!! So i guess you are not the only one doing "real" range tests. Even if my numbers are not from only "one" long ride...they are not extrapolated. It is just that i use my wheel for 3-4 commutes before i charge again. I dont think that will make these numbers worse...

 

For other 18S users, please keep in mind we are talking about real long range tests for longer tracks/commutes. When you are taking numbers only for small rides, for only some minutes, or even just for learning on the wheel, you can not take this as real range tests.

As long as you are accelerating/braking/stopping/starting all 200/300meters or even less, that will bring down the range on EVERY wheel!

 

 

[Marty Backe]

6 minutes ago, WARPed1701D said:

@Marty Backe As the 18S is of great interest to me this thread is proving an invaluable source of information. I'll be happy to send you my Charge Doctor and pay for return shipping when you are done to determine if the battery is operating correctly. Let me know if interested. I'll remove all charge limitations and reset the Wh counter. All you'll need to do is empty the battery and then charge the wheel to full with the CD inline between the charger and the wheel. Record the Wh amount when done. 

@Jason McNeil or @KingSong69. What is the 0% voltage on the KS16S? As proven with my V8 just because a pack has x amount of Wh available the wheel will never drain it flat. I only get 420Wh from my 480Wh pack with 68V (84v wheel) being considered empty. 

Thank you for the offer, but I've concluded my testing of the KS18S. I've put 130-miles on the wheel and it's time to return it to @Sketch - and my other wheels are suffering from neglect 

I'm going to stick with my observed mileage numbers when I publish my video review, with the caveat that there is some disagreement with my conclusions, and a possibility of a problem within the wheel (not all of the battery packs are connected because of a blown fuse?).

Yet I've not seen any other 1680wh KS18S range tests (100% to 10%) to refute my numbers, along with relevant elevation data. There are a million GPS phone apps out there which can provide the salient information (range, elevation, speed) for anyone who wants to do a range test - this is not brain surgery . All I can do is provide my data points. Most people probably don't care, so it is what it is.

 

[Marty Backe]

11 minutes ago, outcast00096 said:

@Marty Backe , how do you set up your tests? If you're willing to go 1% then I must think that you have a backup plan to get home or to your car. In my rides, I go straight from the house. I'd love to a range test... More on that later, I deleted a response that basically said my 22-mile ride was a warm up to me seeing if I could actually make the 38 miles to work on the KS18 because, theoretically, based on the numbers quoted, I should with 12 miles to spare. If i ran to 1% in my current testing style I'd be stuck out in the middle of nowhere with a 45 lb paper weight.

Well, I have a sense of the range that I can expect and I chose a route that will be within that range. Than I can burn off the final miles within an area surrounding my house. In this particular case I was actually surprised by the reduced range and was sweating the last few miles, hoping I would make it home. In the worst case I would have to walk it a mile or so to the nearest road and have my wife pick me up.

For the 18S I had just enough juice to make it to the front door. If you look at my chart above you can see the gradual speed reduction that the KS18S was inflicting on me as I was trying to get home. A steady downward slope in the speed. It's pretty telling. The ACM had no such issue.

[Marty Backe]

19 minutes ago, KingSong69 said:

no, i am not living in a totally flat area :-) I is just that i dont track that ....

Yes, the Tesla has -from what i recognized until now- a very nice efficiency. I dont think that can be adopted for the other, older GW 84v  wheels.

Especially when i hear about 65miles on a 2400wh Monster ;-) Doesnt seam like great efficiency....

 

The link i provided to the French Forum, Phillippe Chiu, he is commuting with his 18S all the time and that on a really "long" commute/range. He has also provided videos about that!!! So i guess you are not the only one doing "real" range tests. Even if my numbers are not from only "one" long ride...they are not extrapolated. It is just that i use my wheel for 3-4 commutes before i charge again. I dont think that will make these numbers worse...

 

For other 18S users, please keep in mind we are talking about real long range tests for longer tracks/commutes. When you are taking numbers only for small rides, for only some minutes, or even just for learning on the wheel, you can not take this as real range tests.

As long as you are accelerating/braking/stopping/starting all 200/300meters or even less, that will bring down the range on EVERY wheel!

 

 

I don't understand why not. Does the Tesla have a magic motor. I think 84-volt wheels are more efficient in general than 67-volt wheels.

The Monster has a reduced range because it rides much faster and of course is much heavier with a very large wheel. BTW, when I did a range test limiting my maximum speed to 15-mph I achieved 95-miles on the Monster.

[abinder3]

Would the San Gabriel River Trail be a good place to check the range of the 18s? 

(Park near the end at Seal Beach, ride away from the beach, and then come back toward the beach.  Seems to be relatively flat.  Wind there can be a problem later in the day though.)

[eddiemoy]

1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

Yes, please chime in if you ever do a range test.

@eddiemoy, have you done a range test on your KS18S. What numbers did you get?

I've only done a 3 hour ride in the city...  About 15 miles if I remember correctly and still had ~70% battery left.  I think I mentioned it in one of the posts.  I'm unable to ride more than that and have never rode it past the 50% mark on any of my rides.  

[eddiemoy]

Oh, recently found a app called Strava to track runs.  It is really cool!

[Marty Backe]

11 minutes ago, abinder3 said:

Would the San Gabriel River Trail be a good place to check the range of the 18s? 

(Park near the end at Seal Beach, ride away from the beach, and then come back toward the beach.  Seems to be relatively flat.  Wind there can be a problem later in the day though.)

Sure. 90% of my test was performed on the Rio Hondo and San Gabriel River Trails. Perfect riding conditions. My rides are on the northern sections so the ocean wind isn't  much of a problem.

I know that you don't have the S model, but have you tested the range on yours?

[eddiemoy]

This is the path I took, about 12.6 miles, had 70% battery left after.  

[Marty Backe]

22 minutes ago, eddiemoy said:

This is the path I took, about 12.6 miles, had 70% battery left after.  

I'm just warming up after a dozen miles 

This is the problem when trying to determine expected ranges of wheels. Many people such as yourself just don't use their wheels much, so it's hard to arrive at average mileage rates.

The battery discharge rate is not linear (in my experience) and shorter rides (such as yours) don't provide a good yardstick to compare against.

[Rehab1]

15 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

This is the problem when trying to determine expected ranges of wheels. Many people such as yourself just don't use their wheels much, so it's hard to arrive at average mileage rates.

Sooo glad I don’t fall into that category. 

[Marty Backe]

4 minutes ago, Rehab1 said:

Sooo glad I don’t fall into that category. 

I just learned that @Duf has 55km on his Mten3. I have 320km on mine. Have you broken the 300km barrier yet 

[US69]

1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

Sure. 90% of my test was performed on the Rio Hondo and San Gabriel River Trails. Perfect riding conditions. My rides are on the northern sections so the ocean wind isn't  much of a problem.

I know that you don't have the S model, but have you tested the range on yours?

Btw Range for older KS18A models experience can be seen also on the French Forum...for example 120km on a 1360wh 18A version ;-)

And we have an German user here, that has an KS18AY 1200W 680wh Version...doing 40km rides on it @Lukas83

[meepmeepmayer]

I can help! Anyone want to send me a 1680Wh 18S, and I'll do all the range tests and comparison to my ACM you desire

[WARPed1701D]

2 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

I can help! Anyone want to send me a 1680Wh 18S, and I'll do all the range tests and comparison to my ACM you desire

Get in line!