My KS18S Review and Ongoing Observations

[meepmeepmayer]

Looking forward to see the comparisons, especially between ACM and msuper V3 (should be the same, but who knows). Maybe you want to make another try with the 18S? Also, please record temperatures (ambient, not wheel) for all runs.

Thanks for taking the burden of wheeling in wonderful weather off us. I would if I could

[Rehab1]

33 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Thanks for taking the burden of wheeling in wonderful weather off us. I would if I could

 

33 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

ACM 84V 1300Wh unless it fries on a hill

I just caught this. Very funny! I need to get rid of all my ACM 1600 mods and bring it back to stock. I already have the new side panels. The rest will be easy.  I dumped the wheel in the snow yesterday trying to create some Dali artwork for @Marty Backeand snow entered the cooling fan area. Luckily nothing fried but your signature reminded me of the many hidden causes behind short circuits. 

[The Fat Unicyclist]

1 hour ago, Rehab1 said:

I need to get rid of all my ACM 1600 mods and bring it back to stock. I already have the new side panels. The rest will be easy.  I dumped the wheel in the snow yesterday trying to create some Dali artwork for @Marty Backeand snow entered the cooling fan area. Luckily nothing fried but your signature reminded me of the many hidden causes behind short circuits. 

Don't revert to stock... All you need is a "snorkel mod!"

[Mono]

2 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

I'm absolutely not doubting your numbers. But for my riding I didn't get the range that I would expect based on my 1600wm Msuper.

As noted in my charts, the 42-mile ride included over 2600 ft of climbing.

According to the chart it was something like 330ft elevation. Lifting 100kg by 330ft takes hardly 30Wh (at 100% efficiency or 140Wh at 20% efficiency), so it's not likely to give a full explanation, in particular as you went back to the original level during the trip.

[Rehab1]

56 minutes ago, The Fat Unicyclist said:

Don't revert to stock... All you need is a "snorkel mod!"

Excellent idea!

 

[Marty Backe]

3 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Looking forward to see the comparisons, especially between ACM and msuper V3 (should be the same, but who knows). Maybe you want to make another try with the 18S? Also, please record temperatures (ambient, not wheel) for all runs.

Thanks for taking the burden of wheeling in wonderful weather off us. I would if I could

I'm comparing the ACM to the KS18S because I'm getting subpar (when compared to my Gotway wheels under similar conditions). I'm not planning any ACM vs MSuper testings.

I don't think I'll have any more time to do another 40+ mile on the KS18S (takes a long time). I really don't see how it would change. The air temperature has been ~70-degrees lately.

[Marty Backe]

Range Test Follow-up

Today I completed the nearly identical ride on my 84-volt 1300wh ACM. As I expected, the efficiency of the ACM is much better than the KS18S. I won't argue about absolute range numbers, but I will say that for my personal riding conditions, the 84-volt Gotway wheels will give you a lot more range than a KingSong. If range doesn't matter to you then this information is of little consequence.

Here I am, mid-point in my ~42-mile range test, on top of the Santa Fe Dam

The first two charts are a repeat of my KS18S test from two days ago. The last two charts are from the ACM test completed today.

ACM Data

Yes, it's clear that I was riding the KS18S a bit faster, yet my overall average speed was faster with the ACM. So given this I would expect the KS18S to perform a bit worse than the ACM in terms of battery performance. But get this...

I limped home on the KS18S and ended the ride with literally 1% battery charge showing on the app. Yet I was able to power drive the ACM home (no speed limiter like the KS18 - yes, I continue to dislike that) and ended the ride with 25% battery showing on the app! And personal experience tells me that the final 25% battery would have lasted a long time yet.

That's a huge difference in performance considering that one wheel has 1680wh and the other 1300wh, a 380wh difference. I'm going to chalk up the difference being between a 84-volt wheel and a 67-volt wheel. Higher voltage wins hands down.

I enjoy long rides like this, so these results convince me that Gotway is the wheel of choice for long distance rides. Hopefully the 84-volt (we think) KS18L will improve this situation.

 

[The Fat Unicyclist]

Do you know the maintenance history of your KS18 batteries? 

I'm not suggesting they are bad, but l do know your (borrowed) King Song isn't new. So is there a chance that they are a factor? 

[Marty Backe]

18 minutes ago, The Fat Unicyclist said:

Do you know the maintenance history of your KS18 batteries? 

I'm not suggesting they are bad, but l do know your (borrowed) King Song isn't new. So is there a chance that they are a factor? 

The wheel had 112-kilometers when I started riding it. Essentially a new wheel. I've put 160+ kilometers on it since my riding started.

[outcast00096]

I believe your numbers. Wondering if you took video. How was the ride? More or less comfortable? Based on my experiences on the ks18 I’d have to agree. If your not on flat ground all the time numbers can run low. I’ve been somewhat worried about this and wondering it it would actually make the 38 miles to work. Seems my sneaking suspicion it would not is correct based on my terrain.

[Marty Backe]

2 hours ago, outcast00096 said:

I believe your numbers. Wondering if you took video. How was the ride? More or less comfortable? Based on my experiences on the ks18 I’d have to agree. If your not on flat ground all the time numbers can run low. I’ve been somewhat worried about this and wondering it it would actually make the 38 miles to work. Seems my sneaking suspicion it would not is correct based on my terrain.

No video taken on these rides. The KS18S is a very nice riding wheel. Although it can really handle anything (see stress test videos) I think it's forte is cruising. I only wish that for a cruising wheel with such a large battery, that it had more range. There's absolutely no doubt in my mind that my MSuper V3s+ (1600wh battery) has a far longer range than this wheel. Once I get it back I'm going to take this identical ride again so that I have objective numbers to back up my assertion.

[US69]

It is not that i doubt the 42mile range Marty has get with the 18S!

But Sorry, something is wrong here, definitly! Even people with a 840wh 18S are reporting 35 miles easily or 60km+.

If you take a look at the french Forum, where A LOT drivers have a 18S, they ALL report about 12-16wh per km and that they get about 100km or more with their wheel. So to say the 18S is "not efficient", sorry, Marty is the only one saying that then or experiencing such a crazy low range. 

One example(and there are others saying the same)

https://www.espritroue.fr/topic/3040-review-ks18s/

I also have done some trips getting 70-80km=45-50miles and still had 40% (minimum) left on my battery.

What i suspect is, that that one of the parallel battery packs perhaps blow a fuse, each battery pack(420,420 + 840) is secured by a fuse alone, so maybe Marty is just driving a 840wh or a 1260wh wheel at the moment.

Would be easy to check with a charge doctor(what btw i do all the time)or with a watthour measurement on the powerplug to see if the complete 1680wh are  even available....

 

Also the comparison to the ACM makes it even more suspicious! The same ride and the 380wh lower wheel had still 25% left on the battery? Really? Means the ACM still had about 350wh left...so only needed 950wh for the trip? While the KS18 needed the complete 1680wh? Thats nonsens an not possible, Sorry!

For me another thing pointing towards to not all battery packs working.....

[mezzanine]

@KingSong69  You mentioned a lot of drivers have the 18S on the french forum.  How many, exactly? 

I visited that forum to research the 18S before buying and I think there were maybe three posters I can remember posting about having this wheel. 

Hopefully you're correct about the fuse explanation.  I suspect my 18S is exhibiting similar battery performance as Marty, and it sounds like @outcast00096 is observing something similar. 

[US69]

1 minute ago, mezzanine said:

@KingSong69  You mentioned a lot of drivers have the 18S on the french forum.  How many, exactly? 

I visited that forum to research the 18S before buying and I think there were maybe three posters I can remember posting about having this wheel. 

Hopefully you're correct about the fuse explanation.  I suspect my 18S is exhibiting similar battery performance as Marty, and it sounds like @outcast00096 is observing something similar. 

What Watthour version do you have? The Consumption of the 18S should in average go to 16wh per km...perhaps 20wh when stressing the wheel. But not more! Those numbers are btw just comparable if you are doing long trips...Steady braking and accelerating are the worst power consumers....

That all is not meant as offense in anyway...but Sorry.

Even the 840wh 14S has done 42miles. If i have a wheel double that battery, and it would only do the same mileage, something is wrong or suspicious! Especially that the ACm has done the same ride with 300-350wh left. Yes, perhaps the efficeny is a "bit" better or worse...(i personally found 84V less efficient) but certainly not on the factor 2 or with numbers that would work out to 25wh per km. Thats just to much of a difference. Btw. Doing the math for the ACM also works out to 15-16wh per km. That are the normal numbers for  nearly every GW and KS wheel. 42miles/67km for a 1680wh battery pack = 25/26wh, thats just to much, i am doing such a range and have minimum 40% battery left.

i Dont know exactly how much 18S owners are on the French Forum, but there should be some more then here....and they btw all report the same consumption numbers 

 

[Mono]

44 minutes ago, mezzanine said:

@KingSong69  You mentioned a lot of drivers have the 18S on the french forum.  How many, exactly? 

I visited that forum to research the 18S before buying and I think there were maybe three posters I can remember posting about having this wheel. 

Hopefully you're correct about the fuse explanation.  I suspect my 18S is exhibiting similar battery performance as Marty, and it sounds like @outcast00096 is observing something similar. 

currently 10 members with the 1680Wh version https://www.espritroue.fr/engin?modeleId=252, and zero with the smaller version https://www.espritroue.fr/engin?modeleId=251

 

[Marty Backe]

1 hour ago, KingSong69 said:

It is not that i doubt the 42mile range Marty has get with the 18S!

But Sorry, something is wrong here, definitly! Even people with a 840wh 18S are reporting 35 miles easily or 60km+.

If you take a look at the french Forum, where A LOT drivers have a 18S, they ALL report about 12-16wh per km and that they get about 100km or more with their wheel. So to say the 18S is "not efficient", sorry, Marty is the only one saying that then or experiencing such a crazy low range. 

One example(and there are others saying the same)

https://www.espritroue.fr/topic/3040-review-ks18s/

I also have done some trips getting 70-80km=45-50miles and still had 40% (minimum) left on my battery.

What i suspect is, that that one of the parallel battery packs perhaps blow a fuse, each battery pack(420,420 + 840) is secured by a fuse alone, so maybe Marty is just driving a 840wh or a 1260wh wheel at the moment.

Would be easy to check with a charge doctor(what btw i do all the time)or with a watthour measurement on the powerplug to see if the complete 1680wh are  even available....

 

Also the comparison to the ACM makes it even more suspicious! The same ride and the 380wh lower wheel had still 25% left on the battery? Really? Means the ACM still had about 350wh left...so only needed 950wh for the trip? While the KS18 needed the complete 1680wh? Thats nonsens an not possible, Sorry!

For me another thing pointing towards to not all battery packs working.....

Interesting theory about the battery and fuse. I have gotten over 40-miles on my KS14S. Yet my 1600wh MSuper only gets about 55-miles.

If only 1/2 the battery capacity was functioning I would expect a ~30-mile range based on the numbers that I got with my older 840wh ACM and MSuper.

Unfortunately I don't own a Charge Doctor and it's not my wheel, so the motivation is low for expending any money to further troubleshoot this.

Is there no possibility that my numbers represent a fully functioning wheel? I climbed over 2500-ft in elevation. Maybe if I only rode on level ground I would get a range closer to what you report.

@KingSong69, can you tell me what elevation changes occur during your riding? Have you actually done a range test - one continuous non-stop ride?

[Jason McNeil]

13 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

84-volt Gotway wheels will give you a lot more range than a KingSong

@Marty Backe were you able to take some voltage observations? when the KS18S was at 1%, did it reach 50v? How about about the Gotway?

1300Ft of vertical climb is significant, it's going to take a toll on the range, but since you've conducted the same route with the ACMs+, then like-for-like... I need to book one of those cheap flights to LA, bring a couple dataloggers & get some accurate consumption data on those wonderful Hollywood trails. 

[outcast00096]

2 minutes ago, Jason McNeil said:

@Marty Backe were you able to take some voltage observations? when the KS18S was at 1%, did it reach 50v? How about about the Gotway?

1300Ft of vertical climb is significant, it's going to take a toll on the range, but since you've conducted the same route with the ACMs+, then like-for-like... I need to book one of those cheap flights to LA, bring a couple dataloggers & get some accurate consumption data on those wonderful Hollywood trails. 

I'd be curious about this as well. You and I have talked on your site over chat about my rides and how much I seem to be consuming to ride.  You have an applicable charge doctor I can use on my KS18? I'd be willing to pay to make sure I've got working batteries.

[Marty Backe]

13 minutes ago, Jason McNeil said:

@Marty Backe were you able to take some voltage observations? when the KS18S was at 1%, did it reach 50v? How about about the Gotway?

1300Ft of vertical climb is significant, it's going to take a toll on the range, but since you've conducted the same route with the ACMs+, then like-for-like... I need to book one of those cheap flights to LA, bring a couple dataloggers & get some accurate consumption data on those wonderful Hollywood trails. 

No, unfortunately I did not record any voltage. I wasn't in a troubleshooting mode, just doing a brute range test.

I"m still not convinced that there's a problem with the KS18S. I'm waiting for a response from @KingSong69 (or anyone else) to see if they have actually done a continuous 100% to 10% range test like I did. Not a 20-mile (32-km) ride and than extrapolate to a theoretical range. I don't believe those kind of numbers.

The only numbers that I'll believe from someone else is if they do a continuous full battery drain range test like I did. I certainly can't be the only one that can ride continuously for 40+ miles???

[outcast00096]

Richard Layman did a longer ride he documented. I haven't watched it in a month or two so I don't remember if he mentions how far he got how much he charged. It was at least 33 miles one way.

 

 

[Marty Backe]

10 minutes ago, outcast00096 said:

Richard Layman did a longer ride he documented. I haven't watched it in a month or two so I don't remember if he mentions how far he got how much he charged. It was at least 33 miles one way.

 

 

At the end he says that he had 34% battery remaining and that he started with a fully charged battery. The trip was 33-miles. If his is a 1680wh KS18S than those numbers are consistent with what I got. Nothing to write home about 

[outcast00096]

I haven't watched again because I'm at work so I'll have to look but the total trip was 66 miles. I wonder if charged in between

[Marty Backe]

4 minutes ago, outcast00096 said:

I haven't watched again because I'm at work so I'll have to look but the total trip was 66 miles. I wonder if charged in between

He said that he topped the battery off at work before taking the trip home. So that's 66% battery consumption to go 33-miles. Not great.

[Bambino]

45 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

At the end he says that he had 34% battery remaining and that he started with a fully charged battery. The trip was 33-miles. If his is a 1680wh KS18S than those numbers are consistent with what I got. Nothing to write home about 

Yes, his wheel is 1500w/1680wh...

 

 

[Marty Backe]

15 minutes ago, Bambino said:

Yes, his wheel is 1500w/1680wh...

 

 

Have you done a range test on your KS18S @Bambino?