My KS18S Review and Ongoing Observations

[Smoother]

Am I the only person who heard the Oregon commuter say at the front of his video, "I did 31 miles yesterday"? Followed soon after by, "it's 33 miles to work". He didn't say, he charged it between those trips. So if he didn't charge it overnight, then he did a total distance, in two trips, of 64 miles.  How does that factor into the equation? Or did I miss something?

 I understand that he charged it at work, but the return trip is meaningless because we know the distance, and the end percentage of charge, but not the charge he started at. Or did he mention that, because I was skipping around the video looking for clues, I didn't hear everything he said.

[Marty Backe]

I have returned the KS18S to its rightful owner, @Sketch, and will no longer have access to it for further evaluation. But after 130-miles of varied riding I think that I'm in a position to give a fair review of the wheel. Maybe some of you will find this of interest

 

[abinder3]

7 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

Sure. 90% of my test was performed on the Rio Hondo and San Gabriel River Trails. Perfect riding conditions. My rides are on the northern sections so the ocean wind isn't  much of a problem.

I know that you don't have the S model, but have you tested the range on yours?

Not really. 

I split riding up between 2 days and got about 55 miles with about 20% battery left.  (At least that’s what I believe that I had left, but it’s been awhile since I did it.  Plus at the beach area there’s usually a fair amount of varying the speed when encountering groups of people in the area I usually ride.  Maybe some day I’ll try the San Gabriel River Trail, staring at Seal Beach.)

(I usually don’t go much below 50% because below 50% battery, the top speed drops and I like to be able to keep up with the faster bicycle riders here at the beach area.)

[Marty Backe]

3 minutes ago, abinder3 said:

Not really. 

I split riding up between 2 days and got about 55 miles with about 20% battery left.  (At least that’s what I believe that I had left, but it’s been awhile since I did it.  Plus at the beach area there’s usually a fair amount of varying the speed when encountering groups of people in the area I usually ride.  Maybe some day I’ll try the San Gabriel River Trail, staring at Seal Beach.)

(I usually don’t go much below 50% because below 50% battery, the top speed drops and I like to be able to keep up with the faster bicycle riders here at the beach area.)

A speed demon. Except for when I hit ~25% and the wheel kept me below 19mph, the 18S  allowed me to go about as fast as I wanted to (<22mph). You're more into thrills than me 

[outcast00096]

5 hours ago, Smoother said:

Am I the only person who heard the Oregon commuter say at the front of his video, "I did 31 miles yesterday"? Followed soon after by, "it's 33 miles to work". He didn't say, he charged it between those trips. So if he didn't charge it overnight, then he did a total distance, in two trips, of 64 miles.  How does that factor into the equation? Or did I miss something?

 I understand that he charged it at work, but the return trip is meaningless because we know the distance, and the end percentage of charge, but not the charge he started at. Or did he mention that, because I was skipping around the video looking for clues, I didn't hear everything he said.

Are you talking about Richard Layman? He’s in Georgia. I think I remember at th beginning of the work video that he charged I all the way. But it’s been awhile since I watched the whole thing@Marty Backe

[Marty Backe]

5 hours ago, Smoother said:

Am I the only person who heard the Oregon commuter say at the front of his video, "I did 31 miles yesterday"? Followed soon after by, "it's 33 miles to work". He didn't say, he charged it between those trips. So if he didn't charge it overnight, then he did a total distance, in two trips, of 64 miles.  How does that factor into the equation? Or did I miss something?

 I understand that he charged it at work, but the return trip is meaningless because we know the distance, and the end percentage of charge, but not the charge he started at. Or did he mention that, because I was skipping around the video looking for clues, I didn't hear everything he said.

He said in the video, at the beginning of his trip home, that he topped the battery off at work. I take that to mean that he recharged it to 100%. And then he specifically says that when he got home the wheel was at 34%. There wouldn't be much point in mentioning that unless he had started at 100%.

[electricpen]

For what its worth I frequently ride on hills with a slightly lower riding weight (around 160 lbs) to @Marty Backe  on my KS-16s and it has much less range than I had assumed based on consumption numbers floated around this forum. It has a 100%-5% range of approximately 25 miles. If it were to have double the capacity that would be approx 50 miles which would be close to what you have seen in your tests. I do not know how an 84v wheel would compare in my usage though since I don't have one yet (I can revisit this next year when I plan to buy one - perhaps a new ACM or Msuper with the Tesla upgrade.

I also know that on mostly flat terrain I get closer to 35 miles. Hills are pretty harsh on range expectations in my experience.

 

[US69]

Just some last words on some observations here that go like:

"The last 20% of my battery charge is going much faster down than from 100-80%"

Yip, thats totally normal!

All our wheel just display a percentage of 100%=67/84Volt and 0%= 50V/66Volt(or neary that voltage numbers). And not a percentage of available Watthours!

When you think about it...to produce for example 1000Watt on a 80Volt wheel needs 12,5 Ampere.

Producing the same wattage/power at 60Volt needs 16,6Ampere.

What does that mean? That means, when your battery is more depleted it needs more Amperage to produce the same amount of power! Which means, yes, the voltage is going down faster as lower as it is!

As ALL wheels just measure the voltage of the battery in  percentage....and not the real available watthours, this is normal to all wheels, 67Volt or 84 Volt doesnt matter. As soon as the voltage goes down, you need more amperage to produce the same power, means the battery depletes faster than when it is a full battery. So yes, extrapolating any range numbers from a (for example) 90-100%charge to get the math for the total range makes no sense and is not very exactly!

(I have NOT done that on my examples, btw ;-) )

Just meant for interest and to explain the effect....

[Imarconi]

@Marty Backe How much range do you get from your Monster? Is it 1600 or 2400?

thanks!

[Marty Backe]

4 hours ago, Imarconi said:

@Marty Backe How much range do you get from your Monster? Is it 1600 or 2400?

thanks!

55-miles on my 1600wh MSuper. Now that I have my MSuper back I plan on repeating the identical 42-mile ride that I did with the KS18S and ACM V2s.

[Marty Backe]

5 hours ago, KingSong69 said:

Just some last words on some observations here that go like:

"The last 20% of my battery charge is going much faster down than from 100-80%"

Yip, thats totally normal!

All our wheel just display a percentage of 100%=67/84Volt and 0%= 50V/66Volt(or neary that voltage numbers). And not a percentage of available Watthours!

When you think about it...to produce for example 1000Watt on a 80Volt wheel needs 12,5 Ampere.

Producing the same wattage/power at 60Volt needs 16,6Ampere.

What does that mean? That means, when your battery is more depleted it needs more Amperage to produce the same amount of power! Which means, yes, the voltage is going down faster as lower as it is!

As ALL wheels just measure the voltage of the battery in  percentage....and not the real available watthours, this is normal to all wheels, 67Volt or 84 Volt doesnt matter. As soon as the voltage goes down, you need more amperage to produce the same power, means the battery depletes faster than when it is a full battery. So yes, extrapolating any range numbers from a (for example) 90-100%charge to get the math for the total range makes no sense and is not very exactly!

(I have NOT done that on my examples, btw ;-) )

Just meant for interest and to explain the effect....

I must say that my Gotway wheels do not drain as fast as the KingSong wheels, for the last 30%. It's my impression anyways. I haven't done any scientific data gathering to back this up.

[US69]

6 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

I must say that my Gotway wheels do not drain as fast as the KingSong wheels, for the last 30%. It's my impression anyways. I haven't done any scientific data gathering to back this up.

The effect might be slower on a 84Volt wheel as the voltage is in general higher, but that lower voltage needs more amperage to produce the same power is just a physical/electrical law. 

[Bambino]

14 hours ago, KingSong69 said:

Just some last words on some observations here that go like:

"The last 20% of my battery charge is going much faster down than from 100-80%"

Yip, thats totally normal!

All our wheel just display a percentage of 100%=67/84Volt and 0%= 50V/66Volt(or neary that voltage numbers). And not a percentage of available Watthours!

When you think about it...to produce for example 1000Watt on a 80Volt wheel needs 12,5 Ampere.

Producing the same wattage/power at 60Volt needs 16,6Ampere.

What does that mean? That means, when your battery is more depleted it needs more Amperage to produce the same amount of power! Which means, yes, the voltage is going down faster as lower as it is!

As ALL wheels just measure the voltage of the battery in  percentage....and not the real available watthours, this is normal to all wheels, 67Volt or 84 Volt doesnt matter. As soon as the voltage goes down, you need more amperage to produce the same power, means the battery depletes faster than when it is a full battery. So yes, extrapolating any range numbers from a (for example) 90-100%charge to get the math for the total range makes no sense and is not very exactly!

(I have NOT done that on my examples, btw ;-) )

Just meant for interest and to explain the effect....

Uau, what a good explanation!!!

Thanks @KingSong69

[Marty Backe]

Range Test Follow-up Follow-up 

Today I took my MSuper V3s+ (1600wh) for the same ride that I did with the KS18S and ACM.

Here I am, at the halfway point

And here are the statistics from this run

 

When I ended the ride I had 18% battery remaining, about ~10% battery under load. The average speed was lower because I did some filming on this ride so there was more stopping.

Certainly better than the KS18S, but not as good as I was expecting. I think 48-miles would have been possible if I ran it down to 1% like I did with the KS18S. However, the MSuper is easier to ride faster than the KS18S (less leaning is required) due to the more powerful motor. As a result it's easier to go faster as can be seen by the numbers. So if I ran the MSuper slower to match the KS18S I'm sure I would have gotten at least 50-miles.

So I'm going to stick with my assertion that the MSuper has a longer range than the KS18S. I've run three wheels now over the same test track and the KS18S received the lowest score.

[meepmeepmayer]

How much % remaining did you get with the ACM? The msuper seems a little less efficient, or maybe it's just the higher speeds. But I guess 45miles/72km is more or less ok for 1600Wh from 100% to 20% (where I consider the battery practically empty). On a good (= hot) day and with slow-ish riding (25km/h or less most of the time) I got that with my 1300Wh ACM. But higher speeds really eat battery, so I guess your result is very plausible.

--

Small tip: In Geotracker, hit that floppy drive button, and it saves a "screenshot" of the entire stats screen instantly. You can import that to your PC just like your actual screenshots, but it's one image and without the phone status bars etc. Example:

[Marty Backe]

4 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

How much % remaining did you get with the ACM? The msuper seems a little less efficient, or maybe it's just the higher speeds. But I guess 45miles/72km is more or less ok for 1600Wh from 100% to 20% (where I consider the battery practically empty). On a good (= hot) day and with slow-ish riding (25km/h or less most of the time) I got that with my 1300Wh ACM. But higher speeds really eat battery, so I guess your result is very plausible.

--

Small tip: In Geotracker, hit that floppy drive button, and it saves a "screenshot" of the entire stats screen instantly. You can import that to your PC just like your actual screenshots, but it's one image and without the phone status bars etc. Example:

The ACM had 25% percent as reported here:

Hey, thanks A LOT for the floppy disk tip. That would have saved me time. DUH!

Now that I know how to better capture these screen shots, I repeat them here.

KS18S - 1% Remaining

ACM - 25% Remaining

MSuper - 18% Remaining

 

[The Fat Unicyclist]

Was there much environmental difference (particularly temperature and wind) between the KS18 and MSuper runs?

[Marty Backe]

25 minutes ago, The Fat Unicyclist said:

Was there much environmental difference (particularly temperature and wind) between the KS18 and MSuper runs?

The temperatures were very close, but I forgot to mention that yesterdays run with the MSuper had a lot of wind relative to the previous runs.

[The Fat Unicyclist]

10 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

The temperatures were very close, but I forgot to mention that yesterdays run with the MSuper had a lot of wind relative to the previous runs.

Headwind or tailwind? 

[Marty Backe]

16 minutes ago, The Fat Unicyclist said:

Headwind or tailwind? 

Cross-wind to headwind.

[US69]

12 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

So I'm going to stick with my assertion that the MSuper has a longer range than the KS18S. I've run three wheels now over the same test track and the KS18S received the lowest score.

So now its enough :-) 

Thats all just nonsense to hear that from someone who has -just-a 120-150miles experience on a KS18S, Sorry!

Like i said before something is fishy here. Even even when i never, ever drove down my 18S more down than 30% this -ridiculous low- range numbers brought me to change that...so here my latest numbers on my 18S 1680wh....

So just some numbers around that:

I am 87kg at the time without clothes....192 lbs....198 WITH clothes

The temperatures here in Germany when i was riding where just  around 3-8degree celsius....37-46 Fahrenheit.....

My main riding speed is ALWAYS about 30kmh or 19mph...while here i am almost everytime comuting or around with my dog and doing a lot of back and forward idling and reverse trying all the time which consumes a LOT more energy then just gliding around.

 

So here some prove photos and numbers:

15% left...done 88,2km...54miles on freezing temperatures and 195lbs++:

Prooved by the charge doctor...1540wh for 88km which are 17wh per km,as after that i reloaded to fully charged:

 

This is "slightly" higher than my other experienced range/whathour consumptions that i posted before...as its fu$%&/ freezing cold now....normal is:

 

1577km now....with exactly 24 charges x 60-70%loads...all documented by the charge doctor: 19x900wh, 5x1000wh= ca. 22000wh diversed by 1570km = 15wh/km..... 

i have absoulty NO clue....how Marty achieved to get the 18S to a consumption of 26wh/km(50%more???) and that on his much lower 170lbs weight and normal temperatures! i really doubt all battery in his wheel worked then...no other 18S driver ever reported anything other than 12-20wh!?

From MY experience with the 18S, the GW V3, the Ks16, the Tesla and whatever powerfull wheels i have ever ridden AND know from other riders, they are ALL about 14-17wh per km! And that just makes sense, as this is the physical needed power to transport a human upright.

There is an slightly advantage for smaller wheels, and thats logic...but that all doesnot make such a big difference!

 

 

 

[Marty Backe]

56 minutes ago, KingSong69 said:

So now its enough :-) 

Thats all just nonsense to hear that from someone who has -just-a 120-150miles experience on a KS18S, Sorry!

Like i said before something is fishy here. Even even when i never, ever drove down my 18S more down than 30% this -ridiculous low- range numbers brought me to change that...so here my latest numbers on my 18S 1680wh....

So just some numbers around that:

I am 87kg at the time without clothes....192 lbs....198 WITH clothes

The temperatures here in Germany when i was riding where just  around 3-8degree celsius....37-46 Fahrenheit.....

My main riding speed is ALWAYS about 30kmh or 19mph...while here i am almost everytime comuting or around with my dog and doing a lot of back and forward idling and reverse trying all the time which consumes a LOT more energy then just gliding around.

 

So here some prove photos and numbers:

15% left...done 88,2km...54miles on freezing temperatures and 195lbs++:

Prooved by the charge doctor...1540wh for 88km which are 17wh per km,as after that i reloaded to fully charged:

 

This is "slightly" higher than my other experienced range/whathour consumptions that i posted before...as its fu$%&/ freezing cold now....normal is:

 

1577km now....with exactly 24 charges x 60-70%loads...all documented by the charge doctor: 19x900wh, 5x1000wh= ca. 22000wh diversed by 1570km = 15wh/km..... 

i have absoulty NO clue....how Marty achieved to get the 18S to a consumption of 26wh/km(50%more???) and that on his much lower 170lbs weight and normal temperatures! i really doubt all battery in his wheel worked then...no other 18S driver ever reported anything other than 12-20wh!?

From MY experience with the 18S, the GW V3, the Ks16, the Tesla and whatever powerfull wheels i have ever ridden AND know from other riders, they are ALL about 14-17wh per km! And that just makes sense, as this is the physical needed power to transport a human upright.

There is an slightly advantage for smaller wheels, and thats logic...but that all doesnot make such a big difference!

 

 

 

As I've said before, I can't argue with your experience. All I can do is demonstrate what I did and back it up with whatever data I could.

If anything my MSuper test supports my KS18S test. Sure, the MSuper did better, but not day-and-night better. For my riding conditions (speed and elevation changes), the numbers are what they are. And more than one other user on the forum has indicated that they also don't get spectacular mileage from their wheel.

[The Fat Unicyclist]

If we go back to physics here... You can't create or destroy energy, only convert it - in our case from stored energy to kinetic energy.

So it MUST take the same amount of energy to move the same mass the same distance! Though there will be some energy converted to other forms (heat, noise, friction, et cetera). But that would only be nominal, surely?

Do King Song wheels run significantly hotter than Gotway wheels?

Are they noisier? 

Would different tread patterns on a wheel have much impact on performance? - And if so, are the tread patterns different between the KS used by @Marty Backe and the one used by @KingSong69?

And what about the difference between modes? Would "comfort" modes use more energy to soften the ride, while "sport" modes don't?

[Marty Backe]

2 hours ago, The Fat Unicyclist said:

If we go back to physics here... You can't create or destroy energy, only convert it - in our case from stored energy to kinetic energy.

So it MUST take the same amount of energy to move the same mass the same distance! Though there will be some energy converted to other forms (heat, noise, friction, et cetera). But that would only be nominal, surely?

Do King Song wheels run significantly hotter than Gotway wheels?

Are they noisier? 

Would different tread patterns on a wheel have much impact on performance? - And if so, are the tread patterns different between the KS used by @Marty Backe and the one used by @KingSong69?

And what about the difference between modes? Would "comfort" modes use more energy to soften the ride, while "sport" modes don't?

The KS18S motor could be less efficient, and the electronics too. The KS18S is much taller, so perhaps it has a higher drag coefficient?

And lets not forget that the ACM and MSuper are 84-volt wheels. When 84-volt wheels started arriving (V8 was the first?) there was a lot of talk about it getting more miles/wh.

[Chriull]

On 27.12.2017 at 4:02 AM, Marty Backe said:

I have returned the KS18S to its rightful owner, @Sketch, and will no longer have access to it for further evaluation. 

 

9 hours ago, KingSong69 said:

...

Like i said before something is fishy here. Even even when i never, ever drove down my 18S more down than 30% this -ridiculous low- range numbers brought me to change that...so here my latest numbers on my 18S 1680wh....

...

Prooved by the charge doctor...1540wh for 88km which are 17wh per km,

...

 

8 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

As I've said before, I can't argue with your experience. All I can do is demonstrate what I did and back it up with whatever data I could.

If anything my MSuper test supports my KS18S test. Sure, the MSuper did better, but not day-and-night better. For my riding conditions (speed and elevation changes), the numbers are what they are. And more than one other user on the forum has indicated that they also don't get spectacular mileage from their wheel.

It's maybe overcautious, but maybe @Sketch should once look with a charge doctor how much capacity his battery really has.

With different riding conditions the range differences can be huge and everything could be "ok", but there could still be the possibility of some not so good/bad/mismatched cells in his packs which brings down the whole pack capacity. Maybe even one of the packs bms shut down (? Or is not properly connected?) and does not contribute anything anymore... 

Such "cell mismatches" should normally happen once they are aged, but with not 100% quality controll everything is possible. 

Unbalanced packs are a big danger for sudden stops and by this faceplants...

... Beside the different riding conditions the different ranges could also come from different cell capacities? Don't know how much they can differ between various patches...