RIP a very sad day...

[Panzer04]

12 hours ago, Frolic0415 said:

The helmet was found dozens of metres away from the crash site and he was known for riding whilst holding his helmet in his hand. His head trauma also shows pretty concrete signs of this as well.

 

Source: He's passed me multiple times on rides at high speeds whilst holding his helmet, including on this specific trail.

 

Why talk about the learning from the correct lessons if you then proceed to not learn from them? Why would you tell me I'm wrong if you have no idea? Quite rude, please don't spread misinformation.

It would be good to know if he was wearing it or not during the accident. I gathered he was as it was apparently damaged, but I suppose it doesn't make sense for the helmet to be some distance away in that case - and I suppose a helmet scraped up bouncing on the ground could be misconstrued as damaged.

I have been acquainted with James, and I saw similar behaviour - he would be doing jumps at a skate park while holding his helmet!

Putting side the helmet, it would also not surprise me if he was travelling at undue speed - many riders get into the habit of assuming such paths are relatively empty and take blind corners at unsafe speeds :(. The police do not have evidence, but it appears implied by their report that he was likely going too fast.

Unfortunately we are largely reduced to making guesses at what contributed to his accident, and I don't want to cast aspersions on James if I am wrong. It is a reality check for a community that up until now has yet to have a known death at speed caused solely by the rider.

 

[DavidB]

I only have the photo in the news article to go off but I don't think the helmet he was wearing in that photo would have done much good anyway. It looked like a snow helmet with headphones.

Edited February 23 by DavidB

[DavidB]

Panzer04 "I gathered he was as it was apparently damaged, but I suppose it doesn't make sense for the helmet to be some distance away in that case - and I suppose a helmet scraped up bouncing on the ground could be misconstrued as damaged."

I have seen tightly fastened M/C helmets dislodged in accidents. (MotoGP) and their round shape ensures they travel some distance until something stops them. The photo of James shows the strap very loosely fastened.

[Bizra6ot]

@DavidB On the reddit thread a local rider wrote that he was most likely riding his Lynx when it happened and I saw a photo where he also had a Sherman S I think, the one in the news must not match he probably had several wheels and helmets for each specific use
If it is confirmed that he was riding a Lynx, the loss of control as described in the article could be a random cut out?
https://www.reddit.com/r/ElectricUnicycle/comments/1avyofh/euc_accident_melbourne/

[mhpr262]

1 hour ago, Bizra6ot said:

If it is confirmed that he was riding a Lynx, the loss of control as described in the article could be a random cut out?

Sure... just like with literally any other wheel. Even if it has never ever happened wth a specific type and brand of wheel before that one individual wheel could still have had a dormant manufacturing defect that suffered one bump or drop too many.

[Bizra6ot]

Yeah ofc but what I mean is that they rushed an update a few days ago because of this specific problem

[Mono]

5 hours ago, Panzer04 said:

It would be good to know if he was wearing it or not during the accident. I gathered he was as it was apparently damaged, but I suppose it doesn't make sense for the helmet to be some distance away in that case - and I suppose a helmet scraped up bouncing on the ground could be misconstrued as damaged.

It still could make sense, as many people don't use the chin strap properly and hence the helmet may well come off during a crash.

In either case, the belief that ATGATT will prevent all or even a large majority of crash fatalities is a heartbreakingly sad overestimation of its effectiveness.

Edited February 23 by Mono

[Cerbera]

1 hour ago, Mono said:

In either case, the belief that ATGATT will prevent all or even a large majority of crash fatalities is a heartbreakingly sad overestimation of its effectiveness.

This unfortunate event does warrant a slight shift in perception of how safe we actually are - whilst I'm sure we all expect the possibility of the odd fall or crash every now and again I think most of us are expecting to be able to get up and walk away from the majority of them, and I don't think many of us are expecting to die or get life-changing injuries as a result of riding these in an 'every day' sort of way.

Perhaps we will get more information as time progresses, but without much in the way of specifics it seems the main lessons we can learn here are 'armour tight, less speed, more caution', broadly speaking. I hope we get enough information about the circumstances of the crash to be able to learn more specifically from it, and to find out if was machine error in any way or just a loss of control / overlean etc. And as others have speculated, if this was the Lynx, could something like road-side WiFi repeaters or similar have caused his loss of balancing ?

 

Edited February 23 by Cerbera

[DavidB]

I guess there has been over a million km on the Lynx. (1000 units/averaged a 1000km each) for one claimed random cutout. Given the trail is winding and narrow. The rider's own friends said he road fast and often without a helmet and the police said the accident happened when he tried to avoid oncoming cyclists. So to suggest a Lynx cutout as a cause at precisely that moment seems libelous to me.

[Rawnei]

Not sure you guys are aware but there are cases of Lynx cutting out due to IMU interference from the DC-DC converter (according to LeaperKim) and a new firmware to address that specifically which came out a few days ago.

[MadVlad]

RIP to the rider, dying is the price of living.

[Roadpower]

Assuming that it is true that he wasn't wearing his helmet I offer this. A helmet won't necessarily keep you alive but it sure increases the chances, dramatically increases them. My condolences to his family.

And now for two short stories. The first one actually comes from a motorcycle oriented podcast that I was listening to about ten years ago. The rider was in a parking lot doing a low speed maneuver, somehow he fell and did something bad to his jaw. From this he had several operations but ended up expiring from the accident anyway. The key takeaway on that is that he was wearing a helmet, but it wasn't a full face helmet.

The second story is personal to me as I had a work colleague who I become friends with as he was a very long time experienced rider while I was a new rider that got a motorcycle for the explicit purpose of commuting while he was a rider for the joy or sport of riding. He rode a sports bike. One weekend he went out for a ride with fellow riders (I personally never do group rides and have zero interest them), he got behind the pack and then he had to catch up. Somehow, maybe on a turn he lost control and slid into a guide wire or guard rail, his neck was sliced or gravely injured causing him to die at the scene of the crash.

He was of course wearing a full face helmet as sport bike riders typically do. Unfortunately it did not save his life.

I think the moral of these stories is that you have to stack the odds in your favor, sometimes more than you think you do. I've been watching a lot of videos about general aviation (non professional) in the last year and as you can imagine the topic of good decision making is a huge topic in GA. Please notice that I did not say "safety", I said good decision making. The decision making is the pathway to safety. Obviously experience and maintenance are huge factors as well but once you have a pretty good handle on those your outcomes are going to generally depend on the decisions you make.

Have a good weekend all.

[xiiijojjo]

Rest in peace brother.

 

We're all freedom fighters on the frontlines of the war on speed, and not all of us are gonna make it.

If anything this is a good time to review your protective equipment and its efficacy. Also reevaluate your driving speeds relative to where you drive and most importantly this is a good time to be reminded of the fragility of our carnal vessels, and the permanence of death.

I've accepted that driving EUCs is the most likely to take my life, unless I live long enough for lung-cancer to claim me.

Death is coming to claim us, let it come as no surprise: Even the best of us get laid to rest:

 

[Mono]

12 hours ago, Roadpower said:

A helmet won't necessarily keep you alive but it sure increases the chances, dramatically increases them.

I suggest it increases survival chances less dramatically than we are tempted to believe. For example, even in countries where virtually all motorcyclists wear a helmet, motorcycling remains the most dangerous form of transportation by far. For example, head injuries account for roughly half of the fatalities of cyclists. Even if helmets could prevent all fatal head injuries 100% of the time, and they can't, but even then, wearing a helmet would only roughly halve the cycling fatality rate. For example, if we look at cycling fatalities and helmet wearing by country, we tend to find a positive correlation: more fatalities are associated with more people wearing helmets. Taking the US, France, Germany, Denmark, and The Netherlands, this correlation is even perfect, they a ordered in the same way by decreasing fatality and decreasing helmet wearing rates. If helmets would dramatically reduce fatality rates, we would expect to see a negative correlation.

Edited February 24 by Mono

[Funky]

Defensive riding.

Looking out for any danger a head of time are way better, than any gear.. Mitigating chances of getting into accident in first place makes gear absolute. Gear is somewhat useful - only when it's too late.

By riding slower, watching out for incoming dangers, things that may make you crash are much better. Than relying on gear that may or may not save you..

 

 

Viewpoint from someone who doesn't use gear for his daily commutes. (For reference: I ride empty-straight-sidewalks. And my commute is ~3km. You won't be going crazy speeds on sidewalks in first place..)

Edited February 24 by Funky

[Cerbera]

On 2/23/2024 at 1:20 PM, DavidB said:

So to suggest a Lynx cutout as a cause at precisely that moment seems libelous to me.

There is obviously going to be speculation about a cause in any important situation where the facts are unknown. A Lynx cutout is a reasonable theory to posit and explore because of the several other times Lynxes have cutout seemingly without explanation. Sure, LK have addressed that now, but we don't know, for example if James had got that latest firmware. Personally I have read about at least 2 other non-leaned-induced cut-outs, where it was only luck that nobody got injured. And LK do not have an exactly stellar record in the 'doing weird things for unpredictable reasons' department, like when Wrong Way's V12 suddenly accelerated to maximum for no appreciable reason (again wi-fi, or some sort of external signal was suspected as the cause), and I believe he wasn't the only one to have that either...

Lastly, we are apparently talking about a very experienced rider here, so rider error is not a given, making machine failure a pretty legitimate avenue of enquiry IMO... it might be libelous to boldly state as a 'fact' that the machine failed, but to merely suggest it is a possibility seems perfectly reasonable at this stage...

Edited February 24 by Cerbera

[Mono]

don't forget, unexpected oncoming traffic is a well-know cutout trigger 

[Cerbera]

48 minutes ago, Mono said:

don't forget, unexpected oncoming traffic is a well-know cutout trigger 

Yes indeed. And 'forced rider error' such as what happens when you have to take emergency radical action to avoid imminent hazards seems much more a likely culprit.

Edited February 24 by Cerbera

[Panzer04]

In the interest of helping others avoid a similar crash, the working theory among locals is that James was simply going too fast. The trail in question is concrete, but is covered by a substantial amount of leaf litter in various places.

It is believed that he was travelling at speed, crossed the leaves, lost traction through the (relatively light, it must be said) corner and thereafter lost control. He may have been avoiding oncoming cyclists, increasing his turn angle and increasing the likelihood of slipping, or he lost traction in a classic single vehicle accident - we don't know those details.

I agree with sentiments around good/safe decision making - such as riding at safe speeds for a given environment. One should travel at bike speeds on bike paths and save higher speeds for the open road, which better accommodates it.

 

[novazeus]

what i learned from riding motorcycles and inline skating is that the govt that maintains the roads, sidewalks, multiuse paths, do not care about ur safety at all.

for example, i always tried to use the same route for my motorcycle errands. that way i knew the exact road conditions, or so i thought. one night i turned into this shopping center where my favorite sushi restaurant was, and unbeknownst to me, the county had ripped up the entrance road earlier in the day and just dumped limerock stones in the hole so cars and trucks could get in, not so much for a harley davidson road king. i managed, but if i had been going slightly faster, the bike would have slid out from underneath me. that's why i call outside the ranch, "in the wild". 

around pasco county florida, with all the hoodlums and rednecks around here, i wouldn't be surprised if someone took a swing with a bat at somebody like @Dufriding in the bike lane. 

i've had cops dog me on roads late at night. 

the nice thing about cars and trucks, u have an exoskeleton that takes the energy mostly from an impact.

obviously we have next to nothing. 

i watch @Marty Backeand @roghajvideos and try to get ideas of what to do building safe multiuse paths and what not to do. i use to skate really fast and all i ever  wore besides skates were neoprene shorts. and i fell a couple of times at speed. on nice clean type iii asphalt, nbd. if i fell on my road, i'd bleed out before getting help.

i would bet money there's more euc and scooter deaths out there we don't know about. they are killing a bicyclist every other day in florida. and my county is the worst in the nation.

i saw another post awhile back where a rider fell and hit his head on giant boulders the govt had placed there denoting the curvature of the multiuse path. ur govt is trying to kill u.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/feb/13/florida-county-most-cyclist-deaths-bike

[Mono]

6 minutes ago, novazeus said:

i would bet money there's more euc and scooter deaths out there we don't know about. they are killing a bicyclist every other day in florida. and my county is the worst in the nation.

The article gives cycling fatalities per inhabitant. This, obviously, reflects as much how often people are cycling as it reflects the danger of cycling. Hence, maybe it's just that your county is the best in the nation when it comes to cycling frequency.

[novazeus]

4 minutes ago, Mono said:

The article gives cycling fatalities per inhabitant. This, obviously, reflects as much how often people are cycling as it reflects the danger of cycling. Hence, maybe it's just that your county is the best in the nation when it comes to cycling frequency.

yes, florida in general is popular, but the ne corner of my county is real popular with cyclists because it's rural and hilly, and full of rednecks with pick up trucks. 

haha, i know florida. my great grandfather judge ziba king was the cattle king of florida. still lots of rednecks here that probably think hitting some dude wearing leotards on a bicycle is funny. 

i always carried my glock 27 when i was out inline skating or on a motorcycle.

cagers can be assholes.

my point is, we're just too vulnerable. 

i saw @Forwardnbakvideo, some ditzy female reach out to grab him being flirtatious, not realizing the difficulty of riding a wheel and could have caused a crash. humans have no idea of what we are doing on a wheel. it's like "hey, just stop so i can ask a question". no thanks, leave me alone.

here's a good article.

https://www.transportation.gov/urban-e-mobility-toolkit/e-mobility-benefits-and-challenges/increased-options 

[Funky]

20 hours ago, Panzer04 said:

In the interest of helping others avoid a similar crash, the working theory among locals is that James was simply going too fast. The trail in question is concrete, but is covered by a substantial amount of leaf litter in various places.

 

21 hours ago, Funky said:

Defensive riding.

Looking out for any danger a head of time are way better, than any gear.. Mitigating chances of getting into accident in first place makes gear absolute. Gear is somewhat useful - only when it's too late.

By riding slower, watching out for incoming dangers, things that may make you crash are much better. Than relying on gear that may or may not save you..

 

Very good example.

When ever i see ground covered in wet, slimy, old leaves, (Often in fall) i slow down to running speeds. Especially while taking turn.. Because i know you can lose grip any given moment! 

Same way when riding in/on grass, mud, sand, snow, ice.. Even when one is riding in rain storm, you have to be more cautious about how you ride! Because puddles can hide unseen potholes. Ground simply being wet can make you slip..

[xiiijojjo]

27 minutes ago, Funky said:

When ever i see ground covered in wet, slimy, old leaves, (Often in fall) i slow down to running speeds. Especially while taking turn.. Because i know you can lose grip any given moment! 

Same way when riding in/on grass, mud, sand, snow, ice.. Even when one is riding in rain storm, you have to be more cautious about how you ride! Because puddles can hide unseen potholes. Ground simply being wet can make you slip..

Some of us older riders have a fine-tuned road-scanning ability from years of riding unsuspended.

But I agree that scanning the road is incredibly important and I have this idea that especially newer riders are getting worse at this, because of not needing to as much with suspension.

Yes the street tires can certainly slip if the asphalt is not coarse, especially on inclines, and I've slipped a few times on different types of wet and smooth cobblestone used around European cities.

Frost is probably the easiest way to fall especially in turns. You basically have to slow down and accelerate very slowly and come to a dead-stop before turning, at least that's my experience with a street tire. 

The leaves got me a few times in my first year of riding..

[Mono]

On 2/24/2024 at 12:48 PM, xiiijojjo said:

I've accepted that driving EUCs is the most likely to take my life

it's not at all likely, sorry for the bad news