Robse Posted March 1 Share Posted March 1 1 minute ago, techyiam said: Interesting. Curious. Are you referring to riders you have seen in Denmark. The reason I ask is because around the routes I ride, I don't observe the same. In the first place, there aren't many riders on the road. And secondly, I don't see the yahoo types. Sure, there are some very fit speeders, but they aren't riding especially recklessly compared to the typical cyclist, and they are cyclists, not rider on e-bikes. I found that e-bikers mostly go at a reasonable pace. By far, the euc guys are the fastest riders. Mind you, there are very, very few of those along the routes I ride. Other than in the videos, I don't see lunatics on PEV's. Denmark. We are the number 2 "cycling country" in the world - after the Netherlands, and yet it is crazy. Maybe it's a bit wrong to call them lunatics, but the fact is that a lot of "older" people, who probably haven't ridden a bike in the last 40 years, buy an electric bike, and there it is. Not because they drive absolutely insane, but they clearly have no sense of speed, surroundings, braking distance etc. A very good example is that, although they obviously have the right of way on their side (doesn't help much when you're 5 feet below), then they don't understand that no motorist expects an old lady of 80 to come speeding up a hill past an exit that turns over a cycle path. That's the thing about thinking ahead in relation to the speed with which you move. Something that as a motorcyclist you are very aware of. But a cyclist with zero experience. Nope. In addition the good acceleration - there have even been a few cases where people on e-bikes waiting in line for a red light behind other cyclists have "happened" to burst into the back of those in front when the light turned green. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robse Posted March 1 Share Posted March 1 This is from Switzerland. You can then multiply that by a factor 2 or 3... 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
techyiam Posted March 1 Share Posted March 1 18 minutes ago, Robse said: Denmark. We are the number 2 "cycling country" in the world - after the Netherlands, and yet it is crazy. Maybe it's a bit wrong to call them lunatics, but the fact is that a lot of "older" people, who probably haven't ridden a bike in the last 40 years, buy an electric bike, and there it is. Not because they drive absolutely insane, but they clearly have no sense of speed, surroundings, braking distance etc. A very good example is that, although they obviously have the right of way on their side (doesn't help much when you're 5 feet below), then they don't understand that no motorist expects an old lady of 80 to come speeding up a hill past an exit that turns over a cycle path. That's the thing about thinking ahead in relation to the speed with which you move. Something that as a motorcyclist you are very aware of. But a cyclist with zero experience. Nope. In addition the good acceleration - there have even been a few cases where people on e-bikes waiting in line for a red light behind other cyclists have "happened" to burst into the back of those in front when the light turned green. I see. Then it is very different from what I observed here. The older riders I see are cyclists who can be very fit. On e-bikes, I mostly see commuters on them. Since it is winter right now and it rains a lot, I mostly see commuters when I go out. I see your point though. I see can new riders on e-bikes that are new to interacting with traffic can get into trouble if they are not careful. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
techyiam Posted March 1 Share Posted March 1 6 minutes ago, Robse said: This is from Switzerland. You can then multiply that by a factor 2 or 3... OK. You guys have way, way more cyclists. But in the video, I don't really see the yahoo types, just riders who don't know. or care to follow the rules of the road. And I don't see them going fast. Euc riders will pass them in no seconds flat. If some of these bad riders ride a motorcycle, they would be dead even quicker. Yup, some of these riders have no road-sense. But then, many riders I see on this side of the pond are the same. I think the biggest difference is that we have way, way fewer riders. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unventor Posted March 1 Share Posted March 1 40 minutes ago, techyiam said: Interesting. Curious. Are you referring to riders you have seen in Denmark. The reason I ask is because around the routes I ride, I don't observe the same. In the first place, there aren't many riders on the road. And secondly, I don't see the yahoo types. Sure, there are some very fit speeders, but they aren't riding especially recklessly compared to the typical cyclist, and they are cyclists, not rider on e-bikes. I found that e-bikers mostly go at a reasonable pace. By far, the euc guys are the fastest riders. Mind you, there are very, very few of those along the routes I ride. Other than in the videos, I don't see lunatics on PEV's around here. I guess, for most of the year, since it rains so much around here, I see mostly commuters. And on the very, very rare occasion when a cyclist wants to race me going downhill, that is when the cyclist may take a little more risk. Otherwise, I don't see anything crazy. Bicycling in the US is very different to Denmark. Especially in big cities. There is less space and to accommodate the traffic many years ago bikelanes got push in the traffic and to a point forcing the cars out due to no parking spaces. And in traffic role the bigger party has to give way for smaller and softer type of traficants. So you get a bicycle rules the traffic once they are in bigger numbers. So of these ride as delivery guys in movies. But eith electric bicycles people can now travel without understanding the risk of motor powered speed and energy. This is a way to slow the traffic down to avoid big accidents. But it only work to an extent. Escooters are a menace in these areas. They have been targeted by police. If you hold a driver's license and you are caught speeding or riding under influence of alcohol or drugs you will loose the drivers license. This have bought some by suprise. My view is rouge driving and aggressive behaviour do not belong in public traffic spaces. This should be a safe area for all as this benefit all. What people do on closed areas as a race track or designated area that is where a rider/drive can do their crazy stuff as this is an area people being know this can happen. I view that same goes for EUCs. And that we would benefit if we had a mandatory license. This way misbehaving in traffic means only the guilty rider gets punished and not all. The more confined spaces people have to share the big the need for rules so it works. I guess that US being huge country there has not been that big a need for regulation. So again each region has different cultures developing for things to work. But I still believe that very fast EUCs are a bad thing. As physics do not care about culture. A puncture of a blown MOSFET at 150kmh is going to teach a rides that only a very few are immortals or lotto lucky. Now I think this kind of post had a better place than this thread but since the discussion is here I chose to post this. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
techyiam Posted March 2 Share Posted March 2 (edited) 2 hours ago, Unventor said: My view is rouge driving and aggressive behaviour do not belong in public traffic spaces. This should be a safe area for all as this benefit all. But even in the video posted a couple of post above regarding Switzerland, I didn't see much of the rogue driving or even much aggressive behaviour. I thought what was absent was a lack of good defensive driving. For those who are racing in the streets, existing laws can already deal with that. I think a big difference is that in some regions in the US, PEV riders can ride in traffic with cars at flow of traffic speeds, and the police don't interfere. Hence, I can see why there is a big demand for fast euc's in the US. Where I am, I don't see euc's riding in traffic with cars, but mind you, I don't see many euc's in the wild in the first place. Edited March 2 by techyiam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unventor Posted March 2 Share Posted March 2 3 hours ago, techyiam said: But even in the video posted a couple of post above regarding Switzerland, I didn't see much of the rogue driving or even much aggressive behaviour. I thought what was absent was a lack of good defensive driving. It is a collection of constant bad traffic behaviour. Don't look at the rider filming. It is the people around him. Running red light, running overtaking when there is no opportunity or safe space for it. Overtaking on the right side (keep in mind in that overtaking should only be done on left side in right side traffic).. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
techyiam Posted March 2 Share Posted March 2 36 minutes ago, Unventor said: It is a collection of constant bad traffic behaviour. Don't look at the rider filming. It is the people around him. Running red light, running overtaking when there is no opportunity or safe space for it. Overtaking on the right side (keep in mind in that overtaking should only be done on left side in right side traffic).. Exactly. These riders were not riding defensively. They typically hope others will accommodate them, and thus bail them out. Their well being depends on others to yield to them. Well, one day, it won't go their way. And that is why I say, if they were riding motorcycles in a sea of cars, it won't be pretty. There are definitely way more riders on your side of the pond. I can see the problems when riders don't obey the rules of the road. Where I ride, there are so few riders. Problems are more related to cars than with other cyclists or PEV riders. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadpower Posted March 2 Share Posted March 2 Yeah watching that video was cringe inducing. Unfortunately too many people lack sufficient appreciation for rules of the road and/or best practices and little to no training. And it really isn't specific to any particular type of traffic because it goes all the way from pedestrians to professional equipment operators, however it is the least worst with professionals just due to legal/insurance/training requirements and constant experience building. It is also not so terrible with pedestrians since pedestrians are generally aware of their vulnerability (there are some exceptions to this that I won't delve into now). I hate to say the following because I'm not a fan of government* or of heavy handed regulation. People need some training requirements, even ongoing training requirements, if for no other reason than to make people aware of issues and to get them on to the same page of understanding of real world needs as we cross each other's paths during our day. This doesn't have to be either punishing or expensive, just to make people aware and hopefully reasonably competent in their use of whatever machines to transport themselves. *(there is a balance in all things but I suspect that many of us can agree that governments around the world have been over stepping themselves greatly in our era...IMO.) For example, I'm required to take a monthly training session for equipment operation, demonstration of knowledge and operational rules. It's maybe ten to fifteen minutes a month, I do it right at my PC at home. This is easy enough to do and just makes me a better operator. I realize that non professionals aren't going to immediately appreciate this sort of thing until they realize that it is actually benefiting them. Unless they can somehow prove that having their knowledge improved is a net negative that is. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Brahan Seer Posted March 2 Author Share Posted March 2 The Vlog above was quite bizarre. 3/4 of the behaviour was a non issue, prevalent across all forms of travel. Bad behaviour for sure but pretty normal for human beings. 1/4 was extreme shake your head idiocy. Then near the end after complaining about the speed e-bikes go at he demonstrates how much faster he can go on his pushbike. Proceeds to complain that the e-bike riders don't notice him. Which defeats the argument the vlog was trying to make. I imagine 90% of folk ride fine and this is just an example of the other 10% creating all the issues making it look like its everyone (when it isn't). Far too much selfishness and ego seems to happen to people when they are able to propel themselves above walking speed. I guess this is due to impatience and having too high an expectation of how they will be able to get from A to B without any hold-ups. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
techyiam Posted March 2 Share Posted March 2 16 minutes ago, The Brahan Seer said: I imagine 90% of folk ride fine and this is just an example of the other 10% creating all the issues making it look like its everyone (when it isn't). +1 But we have seen this kind behaviour even when the vehicles are regulated. An obvious example are motorcycles. Vehicle license and insurance, and operator license are all mandatory. Yet, there are definitely a small percentage of riders who will create issues. On hindsight, having looked back over the last decades, it is quite apparent, this is how human nature is like. Except on motorcycles, one has to choose between being bold or growing old. It's really not forgiving since the sea of cars are have way, way more momentum, and with a steel cage, and we riders do not have that advantage on our side. The damage that we suffer at impact can be crazy severe, or simply fatal. And the impact severity is proportional to impact speed. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Brahan Seer Posted March 2 Author Share Posted March 2 6 minutes ago, techyiam said: On hindsight, having looked back over the last decades, it is quite apparent, this is how human nature is like. Absolutely. This is just human behaviour. Regulations and laws may help people understand whats expected of them. But we all do our own thing regardless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Brahan Seer Posted March 2 Author Share Posted March 2 14 minutes ago, techyiam said: It's really not forgiving It makes us better at seeing perceived threats, overall awareness on the road and how vulnerable we are. The defence we have on motorbikes is speed and nimbleness to help us navigate the threats. With the faster EUC's this will help us too when on the open road. The transition we have now is realising that these faster and heavier EUC's need to be very careful on bike paths. Or perhaps we shouldn't go on them at all? its a tough one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted March 2 Share Posted March 2 (edited) 17 hours ago, The Brahan Seer said: https://www.globalcyclingnetwork.com/general/news/e-bike-head-injuries-increase-49x-in-five-years-us-study-shows The absolute number of injuries and hospitalization does not tell us anything about the risk. The attempt to fix this problem by comparing the numbers to e-bicycle imports is insufficient and unreliable (for several obvious reasons and probably a few more not so obvious). It is strange to me that the study does not count fatalities or did I miss something? Fatalities should be easy to collect in this process and seem important, so why are they missing? Is it because the number is "embarrassingly" low? Such studies are certainly important, and they may pave the way to some reliable risk estimate (though without fatalities, I don't know). However as is, it is, entirely unjustified to draw any conclusions from this study regarding the risk of ebike cycling, AFAICS. Apart from the observation that even ebiking can lead to injuries and hospitalization, dah. The headline pushes buttons and draws attentions for clicks but this doesn't really contribute to a balanced information and education on the topic. I guess, this also isn't to be expected. EDIT: it is not rocket science to predict that riding an ebike is more risky than riding a bicycle. The question is by how much the risk increases, like by 10% or by 100% or by 300% or by 1000% or 4800% as the article wants us to suggest, and how much that depends on the type of ebike. Edited March 2 by Mono Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Brahan Seer Posted March 2 Author Share Posted March 2 7 minutes ago, Mono said: The absolute number of injuries and hospitalization does not tell us anything about the risk. When determining risk of injury or death we have to decide if something is likely to cause this by a number of means. We need to look at previous accidents to work out why they occurred and what can be done to reduce or eliminate them. So the above does tell you something but not everything. You know that not wearing a helmet increases your risk of a head injury than not wearing one. In the same way you know not wearing a seat belt does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
techyiam Posted March 2 Share Posted March 2 17 minutes ago, The Brahan Seer said: 37 minutes ago, techyiam said: It's really not forgiving It makes us better at seeing perceived threats, overall awareness on the road and how vulnerable we are. The defence we have on motorbikes is speed and nimbleness to help us navigate the threats. It is kind of a conundrum. On the one hand, when we ride in traffic in car lanes, we need the speed to go with the flow of traffic, and the handling to deal with situations and conditions, and on the other hand, we will have to face the reality that at impact, higher speeds means potentially having to deal with much higher impact forces. Experience, skill, and good judgement become even more important. 29 minutes ago, The Brahan Seer said: With the faster EUC's this will help us too when on the open road. The transition we have now is realising that these faster and heavier EUC's need to be very careful on bike paths. Or perhaps we shouldn't go on them at all? its a tough one. I don't know about that. Riders of 150+ horsepower sport bikes or open class motorcycles have no problem riding at slower speeds. Personally, I don't have problems riding my Abrams around town on bike paths and pedestrians-shared paths. What it comes down to is the riders' considerations for the safety of others sharing the same paths. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Brahan Seer Posted March 2 Author Share Posted March 2 3 minutes ago, techyiam said: I don't know about that. Riders of 150+ horsepower sport bikes or open class motorcycles have no problem riding at slower speeds. Personally, I don't have problems riding my Abrams around town on bike paths and pedestrians-shared paths. What it comes down to is the riders' considerations for the safety of others sharing the same paths. Yes I'm the same. But will we have 10% that can't control their impulses? I think we are lucky at the moment with so few of us. Imagine living in a world with hundreds of EUC riders locally, with current infrastructure and some of the EUC mentality. That would be an absolute nightmare. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
techyiam Posted March 2 Share Posted March 2 8 minutes ago, The Brahan Seer said: I think we are lucky at the moment with so few of us. Imagine living in a world with hundreds of EUC riders locally, with current infrastructure and some of the EUC mentality. That would be an absolute nightmare. Although, I don't think euc will go mainstream, but if it does, there must be a lot we can learn from other countries like China, India, Taiwan, and many other countries where small displacement motorcycles, gas scooters, or bicycles and PEV's that are in use on roads in large numbers. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Brahan Seer Posted March 2 Author Share Posted March 2 1 hour ago, techyiam said: there must be a lot we can learn from other countries like China, India, Taiwan, and many other countries where small displacement motorcycles, gas scooters, or bicycles and PEV's that are in use on roads in large numbers. Thats a very good point. In some ways the volume of traffic self police things like speed and as you say we probably won't go mainstream anyway. Different countries value life differently too. Very few people die here usually. Whilst in other countries its very common and so becomes de-sensitised. Hence why wearing gear isn't the be all and end all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MetricUSA Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 (edited) Mother of James Barelle on the news.... https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-04-18/unicycle-death-mother-calls-for-tougher-small-e-vehicle-laws/103733522 I didn't know James or how he rode....Sorry, but too many euc riders are becoming elitist snobs and we got tons of YouTube videos to prove it... American riders are the worst... Edited April 22 by MetricUSA 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
techyiam Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 (edited) 5 hours ago, MetricUSA said: Mother of James Barelle on the news.... https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-04-18/unicycle-death-mother-calls-for-tougher-small-e-vehicle-laws/103733522 I didn't know James or how he rode....Sorry, but too many euc riders are becoming elitist snobs and we got tons of YouTube videos to prove it... American riders are the worst... In NYC, euc's are outright banned, never mind being regulated. How is that helping? Even if euc's were legal in Australia where the rider was riding, the speed cap must have been 25 / 32 km/h? And helmet must have been mandatory. But the rider died due to a head impact in a single vehicle accident. So, I can't see how regulations would have helped in this case. Motorcycles are regulated, yet, there are still plenty of fatalities and injuries. People died and get injured riding bicycles (+ other devices) too. And bicycles (+ other devices) are not regulated nor banned. Regulations don't magically make accidents go away. As long as we have people riding these things, people will get hurt or die. Edited April 22 by techyiam 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atdlzpae Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 (edited) Quote Ms Barella said her son had been an "adrenaline junky" all his life but was also very skilled at e-unicycle riding, having mastered it on BMX tracks. That's one question answered. Which I suspected from the beginning. I'm not gonna pretend to have empathy for anyone who suffers from a main character syndrome. Edited April 22 by atdlzpae 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alcatraz Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 On reddit people write that he was wearing a helmet. He rode his Lynx on a trail and swerved to pass two bikes when it happened. I'm thinking he must have landed extremely unfortunately. I saw a youtube video of two mountainbikers riding switchback trails, kind of downhill, and one guy went over the handlebars and filmed his own spine injury that paralysed him. Super unfortunate but it happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Planemo Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 36 minutes ago, alcatraz said: I saw a youtube video of two mountainbikers riding switchback trails, kind of downhill, and one guy went over the handlebars and filmed his own spine injury that paralysed him. Its a wake up call video for sure. The best day ever, everything going 110%...until its not. In the blink of an eye. I dont know the riders but from watching them and my own mtb knowledge I believe they are of 'average' skill and the 2nd rider simply overstretched his abilities, cased the jump nose first and went over the bars. If ever there was a video to reign in complacency and to not push harder than your skillset its this one. I suggest any rider, euc/mtb or otherwise to watch it now and again to focus the mind a little and remind yourself that you're not invincible no matter how much gear you are wearing or indeed whether theres any cars/people/unexpected hazards around. Indeed, if there is the risk only goes up, not down. My sadness goes to the rider though, we've all pushed ourselves beyond our skillset at some point so I'm not typing from an ivory tower here. All I can hope by sharing the video is reinforce to people that your worst day is only around the corner, so dont let your guard down or succumb to the adrenaline/likes/kudos. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aztek Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 (edited) Downhill is brutal. The only astonishing part is the statistics - the mortality rate is under 0,2%. I would expect much worse, seeing this. Edited April 22 by Aztek Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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