RIP a very sad day...

[techyiam]

28 minutes ago, Funky said:

Somehow i'm okay and my old man also is okay, and he has ridden even more than me without gear. In mind i'm ready to fall in any given moment - that's how i ride. 

Given what you have said in this forum, I would also agree that your Dad and yourself aren't necessarily exposing yourselves to high risks. More likely, there are many riders riding aggressively with gear who are at higher risk. If you ride mostly at slow speeds, and mitigate your risks to a low level, you would be just taking normal risks.

[alcatraz]

I'm afraid to wear gear because I'll bump up my speed thinking I'm safe. 

I'm trying to figure out how to keep my speed down once I'm wearing gear. Also I ride in heavy traffic so I kind of gravitate towards a bike helmet so I don't obstruct my view.

I'm happy staying at around 30-40km/h.

[techyiam]

35 minutes ago, alcatraz said:

I'm afraid to wear gear because I'll bump up my speed thinking I'm safe.

That is interesting.

I wear gear because if I crash, I will get less hurt. But then, I don't deliberately take more risks because I wear gear.

 

[Mono]

13 hours ago, xiiijojjo said:

As a skilled and experienced rider myself, I used to have this youthful sense of immortality when driving around with no gear.
A couple of trips to the hospital, a handful of broken wrists, and a few close calls later and I invested in a carbon fiber motorcycle helmet, wrist guards, knee & shin protectors, elbow & forearm protectors. 

Interestingly the day after I got my helmet I had a bad crash that was also a really close call, and I'm almost convinced my kneecaps would have been ground down to nothing if not for my knee & shin protectors. 

Riding skill will only postpone the inevitable... Half of my crashes were the fault of other drivers, and no amount of skill could have saved me.

Although I've always been a speed demon and that @Funkyisn't, but I used to think like him, and most of the crashes I had was driving at the low speeds he does (top speeds back then) but that's also the speeds that got me hospitalized. It's probably only a matter of time before drivers like him learn the hard way, but I truly hope that never has to happen, but I don't think we should promote the idea of riding without gear in 2024, even IF you only go slow. 

I was emboldened back then watching riders full send in no gear and thought people looked like dorks with gear on, now I think people without gear look like retards. At this point you can get gear that only takes 1 minute to put on/ take off, and you can get cool gear too, so I don't think there's much of an excuse for riding without anymore. 

Motorcycling is the by far most dangerous mode of transportation, yet it is the only mode where people ride and die in full gear. The implication from this observation is pretty obvious: gear is not the solution to our safety in traffic.

If I needed to make the bet who survives longer, you in full gear and the riding mode which brought you already several times into the hospital, or @Funky, it's an easy bet to make . It would be much more difficult to bet whether your individual gear reduces your individual risk, because your gear seems to make you quite comfortable with embracing a risk taking riding behavior instead of changing it.

13 hours ago, xiiijojjo said:

However you're an adult so choose for yourself, but it's emboldening others to risk their lives more than necessary. 

Right, as long as everybody else stays safe, you do you and I don't mind paying for your hospital bills in the collective.

 

Edited February 27 by Mono

[Mono]

3 hours ago, alcatraz said:

I'm happy staying at around 30-40km/h.

With a V8?

[Mono]

4 hours ago, techyiam said:

That is interesting.

I wear gear because if I crash, I will get less hurt. But then, I don't deliberately take more risks because I wear gear.

But it may be the other way around, that you would take deliberately less risks when not wearing gear.

[Funky]

4 hours ago, Mono said:

Motorcycling is the by far most dangerous mode of transportation, yet it is the only mode where people ride and die in full gear. The implication from this observation is pretty obvious: gear is not the solution to our safety in traffic.

If I needed to make the bet who survives longer, you in full gear and the riding mode which brought you already several times into the hospital, or @Funky, it's an easy bet to make .

 

Yes it's very easy bet to make - the guy who has crashed many times and have been many times in hospital has already learned how to break bones and still live on..

As for @Funky he may die at his first crash.  Because the first guy is geared to the teeth. As for the @Funky, he is riding in T shirt and jeans in summer.. The very first crash may be the last one. So betting on full geared is the right way to go.

 

It even doesn't matter that the full geared guy is riding in so called ZOO city. Where cars are going nonstop. People walking around nonstop. I mean literally a chaos of a city!!!

As for @Funky he is riding empty, smooth, straight, sidewalks maybe encountering 1-5 people on his commute to work. 5-15 people while riding back home. And best having not to worry about cars, riding by lake and other side of sidewalk are some grassy field with few trees. Enjoying peace and harmony. No worry about others hitting him or anything like that.

One positive of living in small city. And the city where i work. They are not busy at all.

Leave house/job 5 mins faster and ride slower.. My commute takes 6 minutes from train to work.. I can add 3 more minutes and go 2/3 speed if i wanna..  

Edited February 27 by Funky

[patrikkpaul]

I feel bad for his family, especially his kids.

[DavidB]

  14 hours ago, xiiijojjo said:

Riding skill will only postpone the inevitable... Half of my crashes were the fault of other drivers, and no amount of skill could have saved me.

I disagree.

13 hours ago, Panzer04 said:

Riding skill helps get you out of sticky situations, riding sense avoids those situations in the first place.

I sort of agree. Is anticipation (riding sense) not a skill? My early MC years had instilled a subconscious riding sense of avoiding accidents by factoring in the what ifs. On the road it was the usual, what if this guy looking straight at me pulls out as if I'm not there or if this guy/girl driving in the lane next to me decides to move into my lane as if I am not there.

I think it a personality thing. Risk takers vs non risk takers. But also awareness. I once had a partner who would do things like put their coffee mug right on the edge of the counter then say "why do these things happen to me all the time" when it falls off. No insight into possible/likely outcomes. Before that a friend was always getting knocked off his MC because he assumed other road users would treat him as a car. He couldn't understand why I had never had an accident. I said you have to ride like everyone is trying to kill you.

EUC crashes are headfirst impacts. When there are solid railings and posts lining the path you need to factor in the what ifs otherwise the consequences can be catastrophic.

Edited February 27 by DavidB

[DavidB]

Funky did you see Speedyfeet's Barn find video from about 6mths ago? (I guess he was channelling the Late Brake Show YT vids)

[Planemo]

2 minutes ago, DavidB said:

I disagree.

I disagree also. As someone trained in the method of Roadcraft it's instilled from the beginning that any collision (bar a natural event or autonomous reaction) is as a result of bad judgement by a driver, plain and simple. It's absolutely true and the method has served me well. It's also why I hate calling any collision an 'accident' and is fittingly why UK Police renamed 'RTA's' (Road Traffic Accidents) to RTC's many years ago.

If all drivers had to drive to Roadcraft standards there would be a huge reduction in RTC's but of course we don't, meaning I am not infallible from the idiocy of others. At some point I have to make the decision to continue or not when theres a car wanting to exit a side turning in front of me but at least I'm looking at them, trying to work out what they are planning to do (can I even see them looking at me?), having already taken on board the braking distance, road surface, weather, my speed etc etc. As opposed to many drivers in my position who would simply take no notice of any of that because they have right of way. A lack of defensive and observant driving in the face of 'I've got right of way' is a driver disease, at least in the UK. Having a right of way won't help much when you're eating from a straw.

[techyiam]

1 hour ago, Planemo said:

At some point I have to make the decision to continue or not when theres a car wanting to exit a side turning in front of me but at least I'm looking at them, trying to work out what they are planning to do (can I even see them looking at me?), having already taken on board the braking distance, road surface, weather, my speed etc etc. As opposed to many drivers in my position who would simply take no notice of any of that because they have right of way. A lack of defensive and observant driving in the face of 'I've got right of way' is a driver disease, at least in the UK. Having a right of way won't help much when you're eating from a straw.

+1

In addition, should a threat doesn't behave as it should, and is about to collide with you, you should be already be in a defensive position and follow through with your contingent strategy to get yourself out safely.

Edited February 27 by techyiam

[Planemo]

1 minute ago, techyiam said:

In addition, should a threats doesn't behave as they should and is about to collide with you, you should be already be in a defensive position and follow through with your contingent strategy to get yourself out safely.

Agreed, but I fully appreciate that it still may not be 'safely' no matter how much careful decision making is made. Whats important however is that either deliberately or even sub consciously, the speed would very likely have reduced which could make the difference between death and say a few weeks in hospital. Point being, just blasting through without any thought is a mugs game and it's only a matter of time before luck runs out.

[DavidB]

Planemo said

A lack of defensive and observant driving in the face of 'I've got right of way' is a driver disease, at least in the UK.

Universal, not just UK. Well at least every country I've been to ... maybe 20+

[techyiam]

14 minutes ago, Planemo said:

Whats important however is that either deliberately or even sub consciously, the speed would very likely have reduced which could make the difference between death and say a few weeks in hospital. Point being, just blasting through without any thought is a mugs game and it's only a matter of time before luck runs out.

Absolutely. 

Never depend on luck nor others to save your bacon.

When riding on a motorcycle or an euc, it won't end well otherwise, at least, not in the long term.

It is just physics. The law of conservation of linear momentum, and the relative mass between a car and a motorcycle or euc, put a rider at a huge disadvantage at impact.

[Funky]

1 hour ago, DavidB said:

Funky did you see Speedyfeet's Barn find video from about 6mths ago? (I guess he was channelling the Late Brake Show YT vids)

Just saw. And? That's how i ride, just lil bit faster.

Perfect old wheel. We need more new models like that. Just with 3" tire and more powerful board/motor. Battery can be anywhere from 500Wh to 1000Wh. No suspension, etc.. We need to go back in time.  

[Mono]

6 hours ago, DavidB said:

Is anticipation (riding sense) not a skill?

Right, it is for sure a skill, but it's also perfectly sensible to make a distinction between the skill of good decision making when riding in complex environments (which is somewhat unrelated to EUCs) and the skill of riding an EUC. I believe only the latter we usually call riding skill. As for the skill of good decision making, it makes also sense to separate out the skill of perception and foresight and the ability to making good decisions despite the flow of adrenaline and testosterone. I suspect this latter ability is the main reason why cycling is considerably less dangerous for women than for men.

[techyiam]

11 minutes ago, Mono said:

I suspect this latter ability is the main reason why cycling is considerably less dangerous for women than for men.

Hmmm.

From what I have observed out on the road, I can't say that is necessarily true.

I have seen also fast female cyclists, and they act just like the male cyclists in traffic.

Granted, most female and male cyclists do not ride dangerously, except for not obeying traffic signals, signs, and right-of-way rules.

And there are more aggressive male cyclists then female cyclists.

At least from what I have observed, female cyclists are not necessarily considerably less dangerous than their male counterparts. They may even ride together.

[Jmac]

6 hours ago, techyiam said:

+1

In addition, should a threat doesn't behave as it should, and is about to collide with you, you should be already be in a defensive position and follow through with your contingent strategy to get yourself out safely.

There have been some really good ideas about defensive riding, thanks

Constant scan and catalog my outs.

Observe the enemy. Expect the worst.

Watch for any deviation from what you predict.

Keep an eye on the pavement in front of you allowing for response time at your speed.  I've twice been bit by shadows that in fact were obstructions.

I would like to hear what riders consider are acceptable escapes (least injuries) when you see an inevitable event.

 

[OldFartRides]

I forget if I mentioned this, but since we’re talking about defensive riding…

I had a green light last week, but instead of going through, I slowed down because the building on the corner blocks the view down the road to the left. Just as I got line of sight, a car cruised through the red at around 25 or so mph.

Ride as if your life depends on it.

Best,

[MadVlad]

It doesnt even have to be a car, it can be a dog or a cat that jumps out from behind a bush, or a kid that runs out in front of you, or a bicyclist that decides to do a u-turn and blocks the entire sidewalk, or a tree limb that falls in your path, or a patch of oil, or some rotting leaves that are slick as ice, or or or. Sometimes you fall, roll, get up and walk away with some bruises and/or some rash. Sometimes you fall, crack your head, wake up (if you wake up) with brain damage. Its a wicked roll of the dice, especially if you are tall and/or heavy. We all know lever arm concept from basic physics, if you are 6 ft tall, your body is a 6 ft lever arm, the wheel is the pivot, your head is the furthest point.

[Mono]

15 hours ago, MadVlad said:

We all know lever arm concept from basic physics, if you are 6 ft tall, your body is a 6 ft lever arm, the wheel is the pivot, your head is the furthest point.

It doesn't have to be that way. Our feet are not glued to the pedals and our bodies are not stiff rods, it's indeed a very bad idea to act as if any of this were the case. If my hip gets in front of both of my knees, I consider myself to have made a serious rider error. However even then, it's still possible to get away with it (that's not me)

 

 

Edited February 28 by Mono

[alcatraz]

22 hours ago, Mono said:

With a V8?

tesla, msx, mcm5, mten3.. I've got a few...

Several have 15000km on the clock.

[winterwheel]

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Pages devoted to a discussion about whether a dude who died wearing a helmet should have been wearing a helmet or not. For the most part a moronic discussion that completely sidesteps what actually happened and what we should be doing differently to ensure we don't repeat this crash. Useless drivel.

[Mono]

23 minutes ago, winterwheel said:

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Pages devoted to a discussion about whether a dude who died wearing a helmet should have been wearing a helmet or not. For the most part a moronic discussion that completely sidesteps what actually happened and what we should be doing differently to ensure we don't repeat this crash. Useless drivel.

Just as about 77% of all threads after the first page.