Mten4 announced!

[mangorides]

Realistic version

[Funky]

4 hours ago, techyiam said:

Actually, I actually ride with my knees bent, in fact, probably more so than average, because the T3 (16x2.125) was my first wheel, and local roads are quite bumpy. 

If bending one knees is all it takes from losing control when going over large bumps and potholes unexpectedly, many riders would not be as reserved while riding in the dark on unfamiliar roads.

Well i said i ride "slower" when wearing only wrist guards. As i know it will hurt when i fall. And extra defensively..  

6 hours ago, FlyingWigs said:

Sure it's about how you ride, your confidence or overconfidence, and the environment around you. You can't control a driver pulling out in front of you, a pedestrian suddenly stepping sideways or a dog that wants to bite your tire. I gear up for prevention of things out of my control, and the times things INEVITABLY happen. The fact you wear gear has zero bearing on when injuries happen, just how badly they'll hurt YOU. 

 

Road rash sucks, and will happen if you have a cutout (which any and every wheel can do at any time) you don't have time to react or prepare, it's not humanly possible. 

I can control all what is happening around me. Simply look around and farther away, not just 10-50Meters in front. Scan everything that is happening and think what could go wrong.

Driver pulling out. - Simply don't ride near cars.. Or behind line of parked cars. Even riding past cars any moment the doors can be opened - so choose your distance wisely. 

Don't go darting past blind corners - that should be number one rule of any rider. Same as looking both ways 2-3x times when passing road.

Passing pedestrians - Slow the duck down.. You going by at 30-40km/h speed is bad anyways. As you can scare them. I especially slow down for older people, kids, dogs. ~10km/h speeds. Sometimes walking speeds, if i'm coming behind and they have not noticed me jet.

I do that even when i'm "geared" doh.. My dad for once wears completely ZERO gear, have passed 6000km mark already. And ZERO injuries. (Sure he has fallen and what not. And still doesn't gear up.)

It comes down more about how/where you ride. We for once don't ride in dark, We have very little people in our city, most paths are empty. Also we don't ride with cars here.

Some people can fall once per 100km. Some people may fall once in 1000-2000km at low speeds. It's more about how you ride...

Edited September 4, 2022 by Funky

[yoos]

2 hours ago, Funky said:

I can control all what is happening around me. Simply look around and farther away, not just 10-50Meters in front. Scan everything that is happening and think what could go wrong.

Driver pulling out. - Simply don't ride near cars.. Or behind line of parked cars. Even riding past cars any moment the doors can be opened - so choose your distance wisely. 

Don't go darting past blind corners - that should be number one rule of any rider. Same as looking both ways 2-3x times when passing road.

Passing pedestrians - Slow the duck down.. You going by at 30-40km/h speed is bad anyways. As you can scare them. I especially slow down for older people, kids, dogs. ~10km/h speeds. Sometimes walking speeds, if i'm coming behind and they have not noticed me jet.

This might work in a rural area, but almost impossible in a city. Even if you "control" 98% of what is happening, the 2% justifies a helmet (for me, at least). Cars are everywhere, so are scooters, pedestrians, birds, dogs. You might scan pretty well but your brain will start prioritizing, filtering and deciding automatically. And sometimes it will fail (which will help the brain to refine its scan-react routine)

Even if you manage to consciously ride carefully and defensively, it is natural human behaviour to slightly push the limits all the time: once you feel really confident you go a little bit faster, pay a bit less attention to aspects that haven't harmed you so far. And then at some point the perfect storm hits: a gust of wind+a bird pooping on you then a loud car accident to the right - you look there and next moment you clip a dog leash because a dog just appeared "out of nowhere".

I would give very experienced riders some leeway and let them decide about gear, but people just learning and starting out should definitely wear some basic gear in my opinion [just like users of scooter-sharing should]. I also think that you get some decent understanding about crashing, falling, all the dangers and possible outcomes only once you have crashed a lot yourself, and this crash-learning is better done while wearing protective gear.

[Funky]

58 minutes ago, yoos said:

This might work in a rural area, but almost impossible in a city. Even if you "control" 98% of what is happening, the 2% justifies a helmet (for me, at least). Cars are everywhere, so are scooters, pedestrians, birds, dogs. You might scan pretty well but your brain will start prioritizing, filtering and deciding automatically. And sometimes it will fail (which will help the brain to refine its scan-react routine)

Even if you manage to consciously ride carefully and defensively, it is natural human behaviour to slightly push the limits all the time: once you feel really confident you go a little bit faster, pay a bit less attention to aspects that haven't harmed you so far. And then at some point the perfect storm hits: a gust of wind+a bird pooping on you then a loud car accident to the right - you look there and next moment you clip a dog leash because a dog just appeared "out of nowhere".

I would give very experienced riders some leeway and let them decide about gear, but people just learning and starting out should definitely wear some basic gear in my opinion [just like users of scooter-sharing should]. I also think that you get some decent understanding about crashing, falling, all the dangers and possible outcomes only once you have crashed a lot yourself, and this crash-learning is better done while wearing protective gear.

Yeah in big cities where it's like ZOO. Cars sitting 1 meter apart and same for people walking around. I agree there you need all the safety gear. (Heck i would not even ride EUC there.. To dangerous in my mind.) Even my country "big city" are to chaotic for my taste - to many cars/people..

I already know what to do when a bug flies into my eye/mouth - no sudden movements or you may crash.. (Don't ask me how i learned that.)  

My paths are long and straight, so i see everything - literally.. I have set my speed alarms at 42km/h (I won't increase it anymore, for safety reasons.)

I for once didn't have gear when i was learning. But as i took up more speed, i saw i need at least helmet/knee guards. Which i use when i go on "fun" rides. (Fun - as in i go higher 35-40km/h speeds.) But when i wear only wrist guards - those are the slower speed rides. I don't need to hurry anywhere, so i can pretty good control my riding speed. (I even check EucWorld and my riding speeds. I'm very good at telling the speed i'm going.) That's why my rule of thumb is - i never ride faster than 25km/h, if i don't wear a helmet. And it has worked so far.

I know i will fall some day, it will simply happen. I'm prepared for that. I know i'm risking falling each time i step on EUC, when it stops working - i fall. (Some people are more worried about injuring themselves - some less.)

Crazy busy city like NYC. (Fuck euc riding there.. I would not wanna ride there.) Luckily i live very rural area. I don't need to ride with cars. And most of my paths are empty, even in city center. Like i said, it's more about where/how you ride.. I'm not a crazy daredevil.  (Ps. i have fallen once on my belly going ~20km/h. So i know the feeling/pain. But i still ride the same.) < That day i know i will fall, because i was going on forest loose sand roads..(Literally beach sand like road.) And it happened - no big surprise there.  

 

 

Bottom line - i understand what you are saying. It's better to be safe, than sorry.. Anything can happen. In my case i simply don't see the need of the safety gear, while riding ~25km/h. The thing is everybody chooses how "safe" they wanna be.

Edited September 4, 2022 by Funky

[FlyingWigs]

5 hours ago, Funky said:

Well i said i ride "slower" when wearing only wrist guards. As i know it will hurt when i fall. And extra defensively..  

I can control all what is happening around me. Simply look around and farther away, not just 10-50Meters in front. Scan everything that is happening and think what could go wrong.

Driver pulling out. - Simply don't ride near cars.. Or behind line of parked cars. Even riding past cars any moment the doors can be opened - so choose your distance wisely. 

Don't go darting past blind corners - that should be number one rule of any rider. Same as looking both ways 2-3x times when passing road.

Passing pedestrians - Slow the duck down.. You going by at 30-40km/h speed is bad anyways. As you can scare them. I especially slow down for older people, kids, dogs. ~10km/h speeds. Sometimes walking speeds, if i'm coming behind and they have not noticed me jet.

I do that even when i'm "geared" doh.. My dad for once wears completely ZERO gear, have passed 6000km mark already. And ZERO injuries. (Sure he has fallen and what not. And still doesn't gear up.)

It comes down more about how/where you ride. We for once don't ride in dark, We have very little people in our city, most paths are empty. Also we don't ride with cars here.

Some people can fall once per 100km. Some people may fall once in 1000-2000km at low speeds. It's more about how you ride...

I have about 12 or so pathway driveway/street crossings and many of them have tall fences blocking the view, i always have to be prepared to stop in case a car is on the other side and can't see me. Even when I know a car is coming, 75% of the time they only notice other cars and don't stop even though it's the law to stop for pedestrians and cyclists. It is not possible to claim control of cars in any fashion they're usually oblivious to us. 

Anyway this is getting off topic. 

 

Who wants to see that little led board be programmable with scrolling words? I think that'd be a cool hack 😎

[ZweemZ]

alright guys, enough pretending to care about other peoples well being, and back to talking about the Mten please.

The mten3's eggshaped form, wheel size, and pedal height, will be fundimentally different enough for me to hold on to my mten3s for the moment, perhaps untill I own the mten4 I may change my mind. it's weird, but im being cautious, I dont know if the Mten4 feels like a complete replacement to my 512wh mten3. and weve been burned by a lot of new wheel announcements and hype trains.

One thing that Im starting to be concerned with is the top of the mten4, it's got that wide boxy shape, with a pretty sharp edge, and I wonder if that will be a noticble difference compared to the egglike shape of the mten3 that works so well for carving. I dont think this will be the carve machine that the mten3 is, i think it will be slightly geared for straighter, faster riding, which could be dissapointing to some.

Also, according tho the listed hieght difference of the pedals, 128mm (5") from 110mm (4.33"), The MTen4's pedal height increase, an extra 18mm (0.7") away from the ground, is inconsistant with the tire diameter increase alone (should be .5"), which should only add 12.7mm, meaning the pedal hanger has also been raised 5.3mm(0.2") from the mten3.

So, not only are the pedals raised 18mm (0.7") off the ground, but the pedals are 5.3mm (0.2") closer to the fulcrum of the motor, which is more meaningful than it seems, when compared to the other range of distances mentioned. That ~5mm difference should be, like i said, a fundimentally different feel. Maybe that is to add some attempt to simulate "agility" by using leverage, to counter, what im guessing would otherwise feel like, a sluggier larger/heavier motor/tire. yeah perhaps, raised pedals was done for the classic "professional rider feel" reason, as was done with many other "upgrades" on wheels of the past. is this the Mten Pro, MTP

Edited September 5, 2022 by ZweemZ

[DjPanJan]

For me Mten3 and MTen4 is not same category.

This is my "feel" after videos i watch:

MT3 pavement and good surface backpack EUC with range around 20Km

MT4 More bad road condition friendly SMALL euc but not backpack good for lightweight people or kids universal EUC with real range +-30km.  

 

[ZweemZ]

On 8/31/2022 at 1:49 PM, Funky said:

I also would think that 10" wheel would be much, much harder to ride/learn than 14-16". Heck i even have problems riding my dads ks16s. (Yes i can ride it.. I even learned on it, but the euc body is so small/short.) Compared it to my 18" which is bigger, it feels so stable at low speeds and so easy to ride. On the 16s it feels more "twitchy" and so on at walking speeds.

Also turning i always scratch the ground with 16s, because of lower pedals.

 

On 9/3/2022 at 11:06 AM, yoos said:

That's easily possible with existing hardware, see the link to a custom setup below (20kg, ACM shell, Tesla motor, Nik+ controller, 24s2pSamsung40T battery, 88kph freespin. Real life speed test was not attempted, but 65kph during a ride documented so far). Similarly, I guess one can build a 18" 75kph wheel under 25kg.

 

Yikes, someone said, "40T is only good for 250 cycles after which capacity reduces to 60%"

briefly reconsidering my ewheels pre-order lol, but quickly accepting the eventual battery swap, considering this is a "premium" riding experience,

Honestly, affordable for entry into unis, yess, but tbh, because of the lack of competition with 10" wheels, the mten has always been, a relativly expensive wheel considering it's $1.40 per what hour for the standard, $1.91 for the ewheels edition. the hero beats it at 2 dollars. master is under at $1.35 (50e), 1.69 (40t) per wh.

its a mixed bagg for watt rating , seems were middle of the road with 0.9 motor watt raiting per dollar with the mten4, where as hero you get 0.77W, master you get 1.07w (pretty descent)

ultimatly, the mten3 was the biggest "ripoff" lol at $2.12 per wh, and 0.73 motor wattage per $.

this could be a 600-700 dollar wheel if everyone in the world loved unis and it was viable to compete in the mten terrotory.. like, this could be the xiaomi m365 scooter of unis.

Edited September 5, 2022 by ZweemZ

[yoos]

17 hours ago, ZweemZ said:

Yikes, someone said, "40T is only good for 250 cycles after which capacity reduces to 60%"

Indeed, those are official at 35A discharge & 5A charge. However, 250 cycles is enough for many people. If, say you have a 40km range, that's 10000km. Typically other components give in first in an EUC. Furthermore, EUCs don't discharge to 2.5V (but rather to 3.0-3.3 depending on EUC) so one EUC charge is less than a full cycle - that's another 10-20% bonus lifetime range. Finally, the 60% probably means that's what Samsung guarantees so typically the batteries should live longer. And 60% is still perfectly usable for many people. Last but not least, high-capacity cells are often abused (discharged too quickly) which reduces their lifetime below specs. I'd rather have a 250 cycle life and operate comfortably withing specs than abuse a high-capacity/long-life battery which not only risks aging but even fire.

Edited September 6, 2022 by yoos
typos

[ZweemZ]

ah yeah, good points, forgot about that, so the 10-20% buffer should extend the life of the cells tremendously, also the whimpy 1.5amp charger should help as well. I will only fast charge when abosolutly needed.

[Funky]

45 minutes ago, ZweemZ said:

 

Yikes, someone said, "40T is only good for 250 cycles after which capacity reduces to 60%"

briefly reconsidering my ewheels pre-order lol, but quickly accepting the eventual battery swap, considering this is a "premium" riding experience,

Honestly, affordable for entry into unis, yess, but tbh, because of the lack of competition with 10" wheels, the mten has always been, a relativly expensive wheel considering it's $1.40 per what hour for the standard, $1.91 for the ewheels edition. the hero beats it at 2 dollars. master is under at $1.35 (50e), 1.69 (40t) per wh.

its a mixed bagg for watt rating , seems were middle of the road with 0.9 motor watt raiting per dollar with the mten4, where as hero you get 0.77W, master you get 1.07w (pretty descent)

ultimatly, the mten3 was the biggest "ripoff" lol at $2.12 per wh, and 0.73 motor wattage per $.

this could be a 600-700 dollar wheel if everyone in the world loved unis and it was viable to compete in the mten terrotory.. like, this could be the xiaomi m365 scooter of unis.

Some people don't look at the cost of a wheel..

I personally look at built quality first. Then performance. Then price..

I would gladly pay 500-1000$ extra, if wheel is built right! Real smart BMS. All metal inner frame - frame that holds everything together. Motor/battery/motherboard are waterproof IPX5/6/7. And weight is 20-25kg(44-55lbs).. I personally don't even need range, 50-80km(31-50 Miles) range is plenty for me, doh i would love to have ~60Km/h(~37mph) max speed. <<< Gladly would pay 2500-3250$ for this.

And i don't care, that you can get faster, more powerful wheel for the same price. Build quality is number 1!

Edited September 5, 2022 by Funky

[EMA]

22 hours ago, Funky said:

Some people don't look at the cost of a wheel..

I personally look at built quality first. Then performance. Then price..

I would gladly pay 500-1000$ extra, if wheel is built right! Real smart BMS. All metal inner frame - frame that holds everything together. Motor/battery/motherboard are waterproof IPX5/6/7. And weight is 20-25kg(44-55lbs).. I personally don't even need range, 50-80km(31-50 Miles) range is plenty for me, doh i would love to have ~60Km/h(~37mph) max speed. <<< Gladly would pay 2500-3250$ for this.

And i don't care, that you can get faster, more powerful wheel for the same price. Build quality is number 1!

i like the idea, but this is science fiction 

[Funky]

1 hour ago, EMA said:

i like the idea, but this is science fiction 

Some years ago you were science fiction also.  

 

(Aka - a joke. When a girl meets a man, then do the nasty. Then "science" happened and third was born.)

Edited September 6, 2022 by Funky

[EMA]

7 minutes ago, Funky said:

Some years ago you were science fiction also.  

so you'll wait a lot 

[Kurtosis]

Can we talk about the name? I assumed mten3 was because it's a 10x3 tire. Since the new one is 11", shouldn't this be the meleven3?

[360rumors]

1 hour ago, Kurtosis said:

Can we talk about the name? I assumed mten3 was because it's a 10x3 tire. Since the new one is 11", shouldn't this be the meleven3?

There was mten, mten2 and mten3. This is the 4th gen mten even though it is 11 inch tire. 

 

Edited September 6, 2022 by 360rumors

[houseofjob]

11 hours ago, Kurtosis said:

Can we talk about the name? I assumed mten3 was because it's a 10x3 tire. Since the new one is 11", shouldn't this be the meleven3?

I believe it goes:

 

2014 Gotway MTen or "M10" 10" (Geared Motor) 67.2V 400W

 

2015 Gotway MTen2 10" (BLDC Motor) 67.2V 400W (basically same design as the M10, mainly changeover / move away from the geared motor)

 

 

--- big 2 year gap where many of us thought Gotway stopped making 10" wheels, as they had stopped taking new orders the year-or-so-ish, right before the MTen3 release ---

 

2017 Gotway MTen3 10" 84V 800W

 

 

--- wow, didn't realize this has been an even longer gap of 5 years from MTen3 to MTen4 ---

 

2022 Gotway MTen4 11" 84V 1000W

Edited September 7, 2022 by houseofjob

[Kurtosis]

#TIL

[DjPanJan]

 

[Funky]

8 minutes ago, DjPanJan said:

 

Perfect wheel for thin chicks. Doh i don't see my 280lbs ass riding one anytime soon.  

[YCC]

Do you think the trolley handle and lift protection for MTen4 are important?

What are your thoughts, is this a need or a want?

Edited September 9, 2022 by YCC

[Tawpie]

The spin kill button on the MTen3 is awkwardly placed, difficult to use and basically useless for all practical purposes. At least for me. Not having it isn't a problem.

A trolley handle would be nice, I want to get one for my MTen but am getting by fine without.

I do think it's a bit of whimsy to use a cheapo brief case handle though. At first I was "are they serious"? But then I thought: they did this on purpose because it's silly.

Edited September 9, 2022 by Tawpie

[FlyingWigs]

12 hours ago, Tawpie said:

The spin kill button on the MTen3 is awkwardly placed, difficult to use and basically useless for all practical purposes. At least for me. Not having it isn't a problem.

A trolley handle would be nice, I want to get one for my MTen but am getting by fine without.

I do think it's a bit of whimsy to use a cheapo brief case handle though. At first I was "are they serious"? But then I thought: they did this on purpose because it's silly.

Are there some pictures of the official trolley handle? The one in the video was added by the guy, not the one they're going to sell. 

I might have missed it, but that's the only one I remember seeing. 

[dangasaur]

On 9/5/2022 at 8:38 AM, ZweemZ said:

Yikes, someone said, "40T is only good for 250 cycles after which capacity reduces to 60%"

I believe there are multiple revisions of the 40T cells and that newer revisions do not have such a dramatic degradation after so few cycles.

I can't seem to find the sheets I researched months ago when looking at the Master 40t version but here's the TLDR; 

There is a 40T1 and a 40T3.  The 40T3 had WAY more cycle life than the 40T1.  AFAIK the 40T3 is what's coming in wheels now.

 

EDIT: here's the data sheet, you can see the difference in cycle life near the bottom: https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0481/9678/0183/files/Samsung_Introduction_of_New_40T_v3.pdf?v=1612843210

Edited September 10, 2022 by dangasaur
linked to 40T3 data sheet

[FlyingWigs]

16 hours ago, dangasaur said:

I believe there are multiple revisions of the 40T cells and that newer revisions do not have such a dramatic degradation after so few cycles.

I can't seem to find the sheets I researched months ago when looking at the Master 40t version but here's the TLDR; 

There is a 40T1 and a 40T3.  The 40T3 had WAY more cycle life than the 40T1.  AFAIK the 40T3 is what's coming in wheels now.

 

EDIT: here's the data sheet, you can see the difference in cycle life near the bottom: https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0481/9678/0183/files/Samsung_Introduction_of_New_40T_v3.pdf?v=1612843210

Those cycles are also punishing the cells to the maximum, which our wheels won't do. They test down to the minimum voltage of 2.5v each cycle, we would stop at 3v or 3.3v which extend the cycles. We're not using the full potential for more than a few seconds at a time, not the entire discharge, which also extends the lifespan. Our use case should expect more cycles than the paper states so long as it is well maintained.