Begode T4

[techyiam]

5 hours ago, wstuart said:

I did it.  I switched my pre order from S22 to T4

My reasons:

I am purchasing this wheel to be exclusively an offroad suspension wheel.  Here is what I am looking in an offroad suspension wheel.

1. Torque

2. Torque

3. Working suspension

4. Maneuverability (light & nimble)

5. Durability and parts support

You're in luck. The EEVEES boys rode up an incline that Jack ex-Kingsong measured to be 55 degrees. They were impressed with the wheel, super smooth, and super agile. Bradley thought the the acceleration and braking were good. Moreover, they felt the suspension has been improved significantly over the Master. Bradley did feel the T4 is not as stable as the V12 at higher speeds, perhaps towards high forties km/h. 

55 degrees hill climb. Time-stamped. 

 

[Tawpie]

3 hours ago, wstuart said:

I'm also hoping I'll be able to find a 16 inch knobby for it.  

There is a knobby that fits 16X (on Amazon of all places). I have no idea if it'll work on T4 or not but… 

https://a.co/d/4QGNlJ0

 

[UtahRider]

26 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

There is a knobby that fits 16X (on Amazon of all places). I have no idea if it'll work on T4 or not but… 

https://a.co/d/4QGNlJ0

 

This is the tire Alien Rides offer as a $250 upgrade.

Edited August 20, 2022 by UtahRider
Clarification.

[Tawpie]

16 minutes ago, UtahRider said:

This is the tire Alien Rides offer as a $250 upgrade.

Must be a real bear to install... $210 in labor?

[wstuart]

45 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

There is a knobby that fits 16X (on Amazon of all places). I have no idea if it'll work on T4 or not but… 

https://a.co/d/4QGNlJ0

 

Ah thanks - I'll get it!

[mrelwood]

2 hours ago, dycus said:

EEVEEs initial impressions:

 

Several positives, but:

• Initial firmware does a severe rodeo after 43km/h, exactly like the one that kicked Marty and a few others off from an old MSuper
• OTA firmware upgrade bricked the wheel
• Unstable and sketchy above 45km/h
• "Rear lights are going to break a lot"
• Headlights are not bad but not great either. Come on Begode, V11 showed us the way 3 years ago!
• Uncomfortably short trolley handle
• Sidepads have no support at the middle so they cave in in turns
• The sidepads can only fit low profile shoes

 

Also to me the suspension looks stiff, and looks the same as the S22 felt, which is what I'd call thumpy. It surely softens large bumps, but doesn't seem to make for a very cushy ride overall. But it could also be an adjustment thing.

[DavidB]

2 hours ago, wstuart said:

Ah thanks - I'll get it!

I note on that Amazon link that one reviewer said not only was it fantastic off road but it rode great on the road. "You'd hardly know it was a knobby"

Sounds like a good choice.. let us know how it goes.

[DavidB]

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

Several positives, but:

• Initial firmware does a severe rodeo after 43km/h, exactly like the one that kicked Marty and a few others off from an old MSuper
• OTA firmware upgrade bricked the wheel
• Unstable and sketchy above 45km/h
• "Rear lights are going to break a lot"
• Headlights are not bad but not great either. Come on Begode, V11 showed us the way 3 years ago!
• Uncomfortably short trolley handle
• Sidepads have no support at the middle so they cave in in turns
• The sidepads can only fit low profile shoes

 

Also to me the suspension looks stiff, and looks the same as the S22 felt, which is what I'd call thumpy. It surely softens large bumps, but doesn't seem to make for a very cushy ride overall. But it could also be an adjustment thing.

You forgot , pedal dip in turns.

The Korean guy bricked his T4 on initial software OTA update as well. He also got it done 2nd attempt. You would assume the production ones will be have improved software already installed though maybe not. If all the CBs have the original version of software and are already installed is a Chinese company going to spend time updating every T4 before shipping?

Edited August 20, 2022 by DavidB
spelling

[Freeforester]

Don’t forget the missing kickstand, but if the frame is already drilled as it seems to be, this isn’t going to take that much to either fabricate or fit something suitable, which might be able to offer additional protection to the rear lights into the bargain.

[wstuart]

1 hour ago, Freeforester said:

Don’t forget the missing kickstand, but if the frame is already drilled as it seems to be, this isn’t going to take that much to either fabricate or fit something suitable, which might be able to offer additional protection to the rear lights into the bargain.

So I'm fully planning to have to pay $400 for Clark pads, seat and bumpers that will be necessary to wrap this thing up and make it durable for offroad.  I'm certain that whatever clark comes up with, will have a kickstand built in.  

[wstuart]

4 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Several positives, but:

• Initial firmware does a severe rodeo after 43km/h, exactly like the one that kicked Marty and a few others off from an old MSuper
• OTA firmware upgrade bricked the wheel
• Unstable and sketchy above 45km/h
• "Rear lights are going to break a lot"
• Headlights are not bad but not great either. Come on Begode, V11 showed us the way 3 years ago!
• Uncomfortably short trolley handle
• Sidepads have no support at the middle so they cave in in turns
• The sidepads can only fit low profile shoes

 

Also to me the suspension looks stiff, and looks the same as the S22 felt, which is what I'd call thumpy. It surely softens large bumps, but doesn't seem to make for a very cushy ride overall. But it could also be an adjustment thing.

I met Bradley and Lucas when the eevees tour came to San Diego.  They are not small dudes.  I would put them at around 6'2" or 6'3" and Lucas I think is around 200lbs.  For a guy that size to hop on a 16 inch wheel and instantly feel comfortable enough to send it down some steep stairs, that suspension is gonna be stiff. They were saying also that the suspension was working well to soak up bumps, so I don't think it was too stiff.  The s22 suspension is stiff because of the terrible slider design. I don't think that's the case here. 

I'm around 230lbs myself, so this video was very encouraging to me.  Also my favorite wheel is my 16x so I love the idea of this wheel.  

At $2400 on a suspension 100v EUC I fully expect to get useless lights, trolley handles, side pads and battery compartments made of PEZ dispensers. 

What I really like about this wheel is that it's not selling me stuff I don't need.  I am buying this for offroad riding.  I think 22mph is tha fastest I've gone on the tight trails I ride on, so the high speed of the Master and s22 are features I woukdnt use.  I would rather have a wheel that doesn't go as fast and is lighter and more maneuverable.  I think this could be the wheel I was waiting for. 

Edited August 20, 2022 by wstuart

[supercurio]

9 hours ago, wstuart said:

I'm also hoping I'll be able to find a 16 inch knobby for it.  

I'm rocking that one on my 16X! It's a very fun tire, excelling at handling loose terrain and roots. The carcass is so hard that I rock it at only 21 PSI, where it gets good enough comfort, yet remain and still hard enough for drops or doing down stairs. (70kg rider)
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06Y1XFW4M

The turning behavior is not gonna be to everyone's liking tho: it certainly flops to the side to the extend of when turning, you end up putting more weight on the opposite side to stay balanced. It's not an issue off-road tho and you can navigate technical singe track without issue.

A more reasonable compromise is the V12 HT tire. I found it behaving very reasonably. I got one in case I would hate the knobby (I love it) and will mount it when the knobby is worn out, which seems it will happen soon. Well spaced out soft rubber knobs won't last long.

Keeping in mind that this MMG tire is a knobby, not a dual-sport tire. The V12 HT is more a dual sport-y but not really, with really thick center channel.

But yeah, it took me a while to get a 16" tire I was happy with for off-road but it's definitely a thing now 😁

Edited August 20, 2022 by supercurio

[alcatraz]

How would someone tackle going up stairs with the T4? 

Is that trolley handle going to break if one tries to lift there? (one-handed)

Edited August 20, 2022 by alcatraz

[wstuart]

26 minutes ago, supercurio said:

I'm rocking that one on my 16X! It's a very fun tire, excelling at handling loose terrain and roots. The carcass is so hard that I rock it at only 21 PSI, where it gets good enough comfort, yet remain and still hard enough for drops or doing down stairs. (70kg rider)
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06Y1XFW4M

The turning behavior is not gonna be to everyone's liking tho: it certainly flops to the side to the extend of when turning, you end up putting more weight on the opposite side to stay balanced. It's not an issue off-road tho and you can navigate technical singe track without issue.

A more reasonable compromise is the V12 HT tire. I found it behaving very reasonably. I got one in case I would hate the knobby (I love it) and will mount it when the knobby is worn out, which seems it will happen soon. Well spaced out soft rubber knobs won't last long.

Keeping in mind that this MMG tire is a knobby, not a dual-sport tire. The V12 HT is more a dual sport-y but not really, with really thick center channel.

But yeah, it took me a while to get a 16" tire I was happy with for off-road but it's definitely a thing now 😁

Ah thanks, I saw you and your 16x in a video with that tire.  Looked Great!  I think I'm gonna actually start with the v12ht tire.  But I'll get that one too

[techyiam]

41 minutes ago, alcatraz said:

How would someone tackle going up stairs with the T4? 

Is that trolley handle going to break if one tries to lift there? (one-handed)

Since I learnt that I can push my V12 up steps, I don't need a handle to lug it up anymore.

So, I surmise that it may be possible to push the T4 up stairs.

If not, I guess one would have lug it up with two hands, if the trolley handle isn't strong enough.

[techyiam]

2 hours ago, wstuart said:

The s22 suspension is stiff because of the terrible slider design. I don't think that's the case here. 

Also, Bradley was constantly saying how smooth the T4 was. In contrast, out of the box, most owners would ask where is the suspension, since the S22 rides like an unsuspended wheel, except for the big hits.

2 hours ago, wstuart said:

At $2400 on a suspension 100v EUC I fully expect to get useless lights, trolley handles, side pads and battery compartments made of PEZ dispensers. 

What I really like about this wheel is that it's not selling me stuff I don't need.  I am buying this for offroad riding.  I think 22mph is tha fastest I've gone on the tight trails I ride on, so the high speed of the Master and s22 are features I woukdnt use. 

Another thing is that eWheels T4 uses the high discharge cell, Samsung 40T. And at $2450 at eWheels, it is high value. It looks like the torque should be decent, and when Bradley first went up and stalled it, the T4 didn't cutout, nor smoke.

When I first got my T3, it wasn't stable either over 40+ km/h. After having worked on the stock tire (CST-1488), and bearings, it has been stable at 50+ km/h. I don't ride faster than an indicated 53 km/h because the free spin speed is only 65 km/h at full charge. It only have a small 16x2.125 tire, so bumps will throw it off. In contrast, on T4, it is fitted with a 16x3 tire. There is a lot of leeway on the T4 to improve stability at higher speeds in any case.

 

 

Edited August 20, 2022 by techyiam

[mrelwood]

 

3 hours ago, wstuart said:

They were saying also that the suspension was working well to soak up bumps

They were, but I don't think we can take a few persons' comments as face value, especially when one (main?) purpose of the video is to sell the wheel in question.

3 hours ago, wstuart said:

The s22 suspension is stiff because of the terrible slider design. I don't think that's the case here.

I'm sure it's not. But the S22 behaviour I referred to was evident also with a modified roller slider system. I've ridden the exact same shallow steps down with many suspension wheels, and the modified S22 felt as if the suspension travel would've been rather short. (It definitely shouldn't.) It dropped down to each step and my feet felt a large "thunk", while for example my V11 and an overhauled S18 flow down the steps much smoother. The S22 absorber was in the softest compression setting and fastest rebound, soI would've expected rather different behaviour. The T4 also seemed to follow each step pretty closely even at a bit higher speed when riding down the stairs. There was nothing that I'd refer to as floating.

The smaller tire diameter may be a big factor, as can be a target of being able to land large bumps without bottoming out. Indeed the Master suspension has looked floatier in the videos.

It may hit a sweet spot though, since most riders prefer a stiffer "sport" suspension type, and they don't like the floaty feeling that I in turn do like.

 

3 hours ago, wstuart said:

At $2400 on a suspension 100v EUC I fully expect to get useless lights, trolley handles, side pads and battery compartments made of PEZ dispensers.

That makes me sad. Has the general EUC quality per buck expectations really dropped that low? For a few quid less the V11 offers perhaps the best headlight in the business, a great sturdy handle, and well sealed and protected battery packs. I don't think jumping up to 100V should cost that much in quality, especially when the top speed difference is quite small.

3 hours ago, wstuart said:

I would rather have a wheel that doesn't go as fast and is lighter and more maneuverable.  I think this could be the wheel I was waiting for. 

V11 doesn't go as fast, is lighter, and definitely more manoeuvrable than S22/Master/Hero etc. Though not T4 manoeuvrable I'm sure.

 

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

When I first got my T3, it wasn't stable either over 40+ km/h. After having worked on the stock tire (CST-1488), and bearings, it has been stable at 50+ km/h.

I don't think it's reasonable to expect having to work with the bearings and the tire to be able to ride past two thirds of a wheels designed top speed. It wouldn't be on other vehicle.

[Funky]

In my eyes/mind - nothing special.. And being 30kg what's extra ~6kg, for better wheel at 18" size.

#MiniMaster.

 

[techyiam]

36 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

I don't think it's reasonable to expect having to work with the bearings and the tire to be able to ride past two thirds of a wheels designed top speed. It wouldn't be on other vehicle.

eWheels advertises the maximum cruising speed of the T3 as 31 mph (50 km/h). I have never had a cutout on the T3. There is nothing inherently wrong with the T3's design to make it unstable below 53 km/h. It has everything to do with how it was assembled. 

EEVEES provided the first data point. Many more will be forth coming. Also, local riders can go down to EEVEES and see for themselves.

[Tawpie]

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

I don't think it's reasonable to expect having to work with the bearings and the tire to be able to ride past two thirds of a wheels designed top speed. It wouldn't be on other vehicle.

Right, but this is a BG and in my mind that means there are a number of things you must tinker with out of the box. That can be good or bad. To me those are annoyances because I was spoiled by all three of my wheels and didn't "have to" fiddle fart around with any of them so that's my expectation but I'm sure others really don't mind at all. Granted, I'm looking at tinkering with my stuck-in-customs S22 and honestly that's not welcome either, so maybe as things get more complex with wheels we're just going to have to get used to it.

 

9 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Also to me the suspension looks stiff, … But it could also be an adjustment thing.

This is my pet peeve with reviews of suspension. Setup of a bike suspension is mandatory per rider, and it requires experimentation. You can't just switch riders and then make broad statements about the suspension performance. And there isn't going to be a perfect-for-everything setup. You can't take your Citroën to Monte Carlo and legitimately complain that "it rolls like a pig in the hairpin", nor can you drive your S8 over a speed bump in the Albertsons parking lot and get any sympathy from me when you find your Charbucks in your lap and leave $6k of undercarriage plastic behind (that would be the cost of one tiny piece BTW, but that's another topic entirely!).

I'd prefer to see commentary about the adjustability range of a suspension... can you make it poppy or floaty? How difficult is it to switch from "Apple Valley" to "urban warrior" to "forest road" to "downhill single track" to "slopestyle"? (perhaps better nomenclature: "EvX", "Marty", "Chance", "Shibby") The compression, rebound and to some extent preload/sag settings have a purpose—they're not set-it-and-forget-it if you want optimum behavior in different riding environments.

 

2 hours ago, techyiam said:

Bradley was constantly saying how smooth the T4 was.

They were riding on a pretty nice street, so there is that. Tire pressure can make that street smooth too!

 

2 hours ago, techyiam said:

In contrast, out of the box, most owners would ask where is the suspension, since the S22 rides like an unsuspended wheel,

Again... suspension setup and with the S22, some tinkering. "Out of the box" doesn't really count.

 

But that's enough contrarian bs from me. The T4 looks like it'll fill a really nice spot and I'm still tempted to switch from S22. 16" nimble with suspension to ease some of the 16" concerns. Enough battery to get in a full day of trail riding. 4th attempt at suspension, it should be an evolutionary improvement. BG drive train at 100V is tried and true. Still fugly but in an ugly baby sort of way—it's cute. Kinda. And a bit goofy looking.

Just remember how all wheel releases are: "truly a gift from the Gods" when dealers and influencers get them. Reality doesn't set in until real riders get their hands on the first large production run.

Edited August 20, 2022 by Tawpie

[techyiam]

57 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

They were riding on a pretty nice street, so there is that. Tire pressure can make that street smooth too!

 Tire pressure can make the ride smoothER.  I would give Bradley more credit than that.

57 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

Again... suspension setup and with the S22, some tinkering. "Out of the box" doesn't really count.

If you do get the S22, let see for how long you will keep that stock spring in.

57 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

I'm still tempted to switch from S22. 16" nimble with suspension to ease some of the 16" concerns. Enough battery to get in a full day of trail riding. 4th attempt at suspension, it should be an evolutionary improvement. BG drive train at 100V is tried and true.

Switched already. 🙂

Isn't this wheel to replace your S18 for off road use?  Has your use case changed?

First batch issues for the S22 are known now. And they are serious. The fact that you are still contemplating to go through with it, tells me euc manufacturers can continue to do what they have been doing with first batches, regarding initial quality and design defects. There will always be people buying them.

Edited August 20, 2022 by techyiam

[wstuart]

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

 

They were, but I don't think we can take a few persons' comments as face value, especially when one (main?) purpose of the video is to sell the wheel in question.

I'm sure it's not. But the S22 behaviour I referred to was evident also with a modified roller slider system. I've ridden the exact same shallow steps down with many suspension wheels, and the modified S22 felt as if the suspension travel would've been rather short. (It definitely shouldn't.) It dropped down to each step and my feet felt a large "thunk", while for example my V11 and an overhauled S18 flow down the steps much smoother. The S22 absorber was in the softest compression setting and fastest rebound, soI would've expected rather different behaviour. The T4 also seemed to follow each step pretty closely even at a bit higher speed when riding down the stairs. There was nothing that I'd refer to as floating.

The smaller tire diameter may be a big factor, as can be a target of being able to land large bumps without bottoming out. Indeed the Master suspension has looked floatier in the videos.

It may hit a sweet spot though, since most riders prefer a stiffer "sport" suspension type, and they don't like the floaty feeling that I in turn do like.

 

That makes me sad. Has the general EUC quality per buck expectations really dropped that low? For a few quid less the V11 offers perhaps the best headlight in the business, a great sturdy handle, and well sealed and protected battery packs. I don't think jumping up to 100V should cost that much in quality, especially when the top speed difference is quite small.

V11 doesn't go as fast, is lighter, and definitely more manoeuvrable than S22/Master/Hero etc. Though not T4 manoeuvrable I'm sure.

 

I don't think it's reasonable to expect having to work with the bearings and the tire to be able to ride past two thirds of a wheels designed top speed. It wouldn't be on other vehicle.

These are great points.  I own a v11 and it's the wheel I use the most.  There's a couple reasons I don't use it offroad though

1. The v11 lacks a little torque at super low speeds.  I've felt that once ithe v11 gets going its plenty powerful, but it doesn't have the torque from 0-5mph that my MSP or even 16x has.  On the trails that I ride the 0-5mph is super important.  This is a major reason I passed on the s22. ForwardnBack said he felt the torque off the line of the s22 was much worse than the v11.  

2.  While i agree the V11 suspension is highly effective at smoothing stuff out, I am one of those guys who whines and complains about the v11 "floatiness".  When I hit successive bumps on my v11 it really feels like I've got no weight being pushed into the ground (kinda pogosticky).

3.  I love my v11 too much to take it offroad. I 100% agree with you that it is the best looking EUC and the feel, fit and finish of the wheel are miles beyond anything else.  I've found that the wheels I take offroad (MSP and 16x) get pretty thrashed.  I would be so bummed to see that beautiful headlight get bashed in.  Also im worried the suspension chambers hanging off the bottom would catch a rock.

 

My v11 and my EX are my dedicated onroad suspension cruisers.  I'm looking for an offroad suspnsion wheel that can take a beating but most importantly has TORQUE.  

 

My remaining concern is that the T4 will be fragile like the Master.  That's why I'm hoping Clark will come through for me

Edited August 20, 2022 by wstuart

[Tawpie]

45 minutes ago, techyiam said:

If you do get the S22, let see for how long you will keep that stock spring in.

Stock spring is for a much much heavier rider than I, so a replacement is already in hand and had been planned from the day S20 marketing said it'd be coil over. It's how a coil over shock is adjusted. Part and parcel for this architecture. It's the same thing as pumping an air shock to a particular pressure—if you don't set sag properly, suspension performance is diminished.

 

45 minutes ago, techyiam said:

Isn't this wheel to replace your S18 for off road use?  Has your use case changed?

Yes, and no changes to the use case. 20+ miles on pavement/dirt roads to the trails, trails until I'm completely tuckered out, 20+ miles on pavement/dirt to get home. S18 gets me there and back, but no battery for trails. 16X fills the bill but gets less fun and is much more tiring as the trail gets rougher. I'm far too old and much too chicken to send it, but love going up the downhill MTB trails and cruising on the forest paths.

 

45 minutes ago, techyiam said:

And they are serious.

Perhaps, but they are manageable. Adding some 3D printed parts is getting to be par for the course, and poor lube choices—that's almost a signature fork-up in the EUC world these days.

 

Please don't misinterpret my rantings. I think the T4 is very promising, and it's because it's lighter than the S22 that it is tempting. I like having a bigger tire though—the S18 is more 'calm' than the 16X even with the suspension locked out (yes, I do that to avoid pedal strikes due to suspension compression). But I have lost my illusions that any 2021 or newer wheel is going to be at its best out of the box and am resigned to the new world of add a 3D printed/fiberglas shell or dust cover or cooling port or front bumper or motor cable protector or pedal holder-upper world we now live in. These have become annoyances to me, they really are design deficiencies but anymore, I don't expect Honda class thought to have gone into my EUC implementation.

Edited August 20, 2022 by Tawpie

[mrelwood]

Quick off-topic:

50 minutes ago, wstuart said:

While i agree the V11 suspension is highly effective at smoothing stuff out, I am one of those guys who whines and complains about the v11 "floatiness".

Increase the top chamber pressures from 70 psi upwards by 10 psi increments, and test each setup. You'll transform the behaviour completely, to your liking I'm sure.

[wstuart]

2 hours ago, Funky said:

In my eyes/mind - nothing special.. And being 30kg what's extra ~6kg, for better wheel at 18" size.

#MiniMaster.

 

Yeah it wasn't so much the 6kg bothering me as it was the $800.   I'm digging the mini price tag of the mini master.

I have no experience with the Master, but from what I've seen and heard it seems like you've gotta get a new shock and even some aftermarket linkages to make the suspension work offroad.  So that's an extra $400 to get a suspension that won't bottom out for a heavy guy like me??  So for my purposes the Master is an extra $1200........ this is why the T4 looks like a great deal to me.  After seeing Lukas take their T4 down steps effectively its looking like the suspension might actually work for me out of the box....... 🤞 

Edited August 20, 2022 by wstuart