Inmotion V13 Speculation

[Supakatt]

9 minutes ago, HEC said:

Says who and based on which criteria specifically? They're surely not beating (or even getting close to) amounts sold by Inmotion...

Agreed, anyone can buy a inmotion EUC on Amazon, which says a lot, & AFAIK it’s probably the only EUC that has all the certifications to sell at a big box retail store.

[Tawpie]

49 minutes ago, Supakatt said:

Agreed, anyone can buy a inmotion EUC on Amazon, which says a lot, & AFAIK it’s probably the only EUC that has all the certifications to sell at a big box retail store.

I didn't realize Amazon had standards for what could be listed for sale, some of their stuff is pretty sketch. But I guess I learn something new every day.

In my mind, Amazon is just another distribution channel. Having Amazon in the mix can't make their other distributors very happy but it might spur price competition!

[Supakatt]

1 hour ago, Tawpie said:

I didn't realize Amazon had standards for what could be listed for sale, some of their stuff is pretty sketch. But I guess I learn something new every day.

In my mind, Amazon is just another distribution channel. Having Amazon in the mix can't make their other distributors very happy but it might spur price competition!

Yes they do, & Yes some items are potentially sketchy, DOA out the box, & has happened to me, & I’m sure most people here remember the holiday season of exploding hoverboards, with batteries that had bad, or no BMS at all. So to sell certain electronic items to consumers in certain countries, online retailers & the products they sell have to meet certain requirements like safety. 
 

Unfortunately, that’s the very main reason I will not purchase another Begode Wheel.

[Eyss]

4 hours ago, HEC said:

Says who and based on which criteria specifically? They're surely not beating (or even getting close to) amounts sold by Inmotion...

Alien rides has said that 80% of their sales are begode. Other retailers have also said similar figures. 

What numbers are you seeing from inmotion and who from?

[techyiam]

Inmotion on Facebook has released a video show casing the V13 braking power.

https://fb.watch/fGhTec6fGQ/

[Paul g]

5 hours ago, Eyss said:

Alien rides has said that 80% of their sales are begode. Other retailers have also said similar figures. 

What numbers are you seeing from inmotion and who from?

These reports about share market are making me confused, they seem to contradict each other.

[techyiam]

Here is Mark Yu doing bunny hops on a 110 lbs V13.

I didn't realize the pedals are this high up.

 

Edited September 21, 2022 by techyiam

[Eucner]

5 hours ago, techyiam said:

Inmotion on Facebook has released a video show casing the V13 braking power.

https://fb.watch/fGhTec6fGQ/

There was not enough footage to evaluate regenerative braking. The reverse current braking was adjusted to too low level.

[techyiam]

1 hour ago, Eucner said:

The reverse current braking was adjusted to too low level.

In your estimation, how much shorter the braking distance should have been?

[Eucner]

17 minutes ago, techyiam said:

In your estimation, how much shorter the braking distance should have been?

Hard to tell exact distance from the video. The last meters looked very powerless.

[techyiam]

4 minutes ago, Eucner said:

The last meters looked very powerless.

I was puzzled by that too.

[meepmeepmayer]

I'm beginning to think that current boards are the weak link limiting braking, and that EUCs need huuuge supercapacitors so they can brake powerfully and not meekly like that! Like easily 10kW or 15kW absorbing capacity for the time you need to come to a stop. Way more than acceleration peak power, where the firmware may very well limit power delivery to conserve battery and keep people from doing crazy things. But braking needs to work! This video does not look like powerful braking to me (hard to say from this useless video). More like "Come on, freight train, stop already... aaah!". Imagine needing to actually not hit something in this situation.

Edited September 21, 2022 by meepmeepmayer

[Cerbera]

I was more concerned with the fact he apparently had to grab the front, and then hang almost completely off the back of it to get it to slow down, and even then it took a VERY long time to happen.

[Paul g]

41 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

I'm beginning to think that current boards are the weak link limiting braking, and that EUCs need huuuge supercapacitors so they can brake powerfully and not meekly like that! Like easily 10kW or 15kW absorbing capacity for the time you need to come to a stop. Way more than acceleration peak power, where the firmware may very well limit power delivery to conserve battery and keep people from doing crazy things. But braking needs to work! This video does not look like powerful braking to me (hard to say from this useless video). More like "Come on, freight train, stop already... aaah!". Imagine needing to actually not hit something in this situation.

Wait a minute!   @meepmeepmayer isn’t that more than 3 or 4 times the entire EUC battery? Anyway, I like you think big 😁

[sunstrong]

It looks to me that the distance is around 30m - 40m?

If not slowed down, the braking time seems to be around 3s

If assuming Mark's going at his top speed in the previous video, around 70kmh, this would be very reasonable stopping distance / deceleration compared to typical motorcycles / cars according to my brief Google search. I'm not an expert and could be wrong.

I guess it's more so the fact they don't show direct data, or non slow-mo videos that makes it more sketchy.

Edited September 21, 2022 by sunstrong

[wstuart]

1 hour ago, meepmeepmayer said:

I'm beginning to think that current boards are the weak link limiting braking, and that EUCs need huuuge supercapacitors so they can brake powerfully and not meekly like that! Like easily 10kW or 15kW absorbing capacity for the time you need to come to a stop. Way more than acceleration peak power, where the firmware may very well limit power delivery to conserve battery and keep people from doing crazy things. But braking needs to work! This video does not look like powerful braking to me (hard to say from this useless video). More like "Come on, freight train, stop already... aaah!". Imagine needing to actually not hit something in this situation.

It doesn't even look like he came to a full stop, they just cut the video when he stood up.  Where I come from that's called a California roll

[wstuart]

7 hours ago, Paul g said:

These reports about share market are making me confused, they seem to contradict each other.

I would imagine that alot more V8s and v10s are bought at places like Amazon by new riders (or me - I just bought a v8s on amazon).  I would guess a place like alienrides is selling to experienced riders who wanna go 30mph +.  Maybe that's a smaller market than slower new riders....

[Paul g]

36 minutes ago, wstuart said:

I would imagine that alot more V8s and v10s are bought at places like Amazon by new riders (or me - I just bought a v8s on amazon).  I would guess a place like alienrides is selling to experienced riders who wanna go 30mph +.  Maybe that's a smaller market than slower new riders....

Could be, but people were saying other wheels sale better, like once was V8, than V11, then Sherman. I really don’t have any direct knowledge about that. Only resellers have this info.

[Supakatt]

12 hours ago, Eyss said:

Alien rides has said that 80% of their sales are begode. Other retailers have also said similar figures. 

What numbers are you seeing from inmotion and who from?

So 18 out of the 25 wheel models in their inventory they sell are begode, that’s 72% if they sold only one of each wheel they had in stock. This is not counting Extreme Bull wheels that use begode parts. So realistically it only takes another manufacturer to have limited production, or other delays, that turns into not restocking that wheel due to those reasons, & that wheel over time becomes less popular because they can’t keep up with the demand for high performance wheels. Obviously begode takes full advantage of this with the variety of wheels they have available & in stock @ retailers like Alien Rides.

1 hour ago, Cerbera said:

I was more concerned with the fact he apparently had to grab the front, and then hang almost completely off the back of it to get it to slow down, and even then it took a VERY long time to happen.

Yeah, I think that POS knobby tire has a lot to do with that too. I really hope inmotion gets it together & puts a street tire on that V13 from the factory. Those knobby off-road tires these EUC’s manufacturers are pushing on us lately are cheap hot trash.

[meepmeepmayer]

1 hour ago, Paul g said:

Wait a minute!   @meepmeepmayer isn’t that more than 3 or 4 times the entire EUC battery? Anyway, I like you think big 😁

kW, not kWh. Wattage is just the momentary power consumption or regeneration, which can be very high but is very short. You'd have to decelerate hard for minutes to possibly exceed the battery capacity, but since you're not slowing down from like Mach 10 that isn't happening.

My idea was that EUCs can have 3000W or 5000W momentary power output easily, so I doubled that for 10kW. Then added 15kW because margins. Nothing more sophisticated (or knowledgeable) going on in my head Rough plausibility check: the V13 is 8p, so the battery can output about 8*10A = 80A continuously, which gives 126V*80A=10kW that are theoretically possible even ignoring temporary power spikes. So these 10kW or 15kW numbers suddenly aren't crazy at all. I want something like 10 seconds of 25kW absorption now (comes out to 70Wh in capacitor capacity). Then you are guaranteed you can always brake hard, and harder than you can accelerate.

I don't know if it's really the electronics limiting the braking, or if the tire would just slip if you were braking harder. But I suspect with beefier electronics, the firmware would have to limit the braking notably less.

Edited September 21, 2022 by meepmeepmayer
spelling

[Paul g]

My mistake, I missed the h from kWh, sorry! 

I agree with you when saying we need better braking on EUCs. 

[mrelwood]

4 hours ago, Eucner said:

The last meters looked very powerless.

2 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

I'm beginning to think that current boards are the weak link limiting braking

2 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

This video does not look like powerful braking

Guys, lets try not to confuse the matters by using incorrect terminology.

EUCs don't attempt to brake or accelerate. They use all the power they do in an attempt to stay upright. If there is not enough power for braking, the wheel doesn't keep coasting forward. The pedals dip and the rider falls to their butt. A reverse overlean.

An extreme example, think about what an EUC does if it has no power at all. When it's turned off. It no longer stays upright. It doesn't coast forward like a bicycle.

Whenever the EUC stays upright, it has enough power for the intended task. Just like in the video. There was no visible pedal dip, so power delivery seems to be working just fine. The wheel provided all the power that was asked from it.

 

2 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

More like "Come on, freight train, stop already... aaah!".

2 hours ago, Cerbera said:

I was more concerned with the fact he apparently had to grab the front, and then hang almost completely off the back of it to get it to slow down, and even then it took a VERY long time to happen.

And those are the exact reasons why many people don't like these large diameter wheels. Because it takes a huge amount of effort to make them accelerate and brake. THAT'S the issue in the video, not power delivery. A low powered 16" EUC is much much easier to stop, and can easily do so in a much shorter distance than a 22" EUC.

[Cerbera]

4 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

And those are the exact reasons why many people don't like these large diameter wheels. Because it takes a huge amount of effort to make them accelerate and brake. THAT'S the issue in the video, not power delivery. A low powered 16" EUC is much much easier to stop, and can easily do so in a much shorter distance than a 22" EUC.

You're not wrong about that ! Even tho my MS3 doesn't go very fast it still takes a surprisingly long time to accelerate and brake (no special aftermarket pads here), unlike my otherwise pathetically weak little Airwheel 14 incher I started off on - that could turn on a dime, and stop faster than people on foot could !

Edited September 21, 2022 by Cerbera

[meepmeepmayer]

6 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

Guys, lets try not to confuse the matters by using incorrect terminology.

I know self-balancing means self-balancing, but there also temporal aspects here. The wheel is oscillating around a stable status in reality, which gives wiggle room. Also the rider reacts, even more wiggle room.

I'm saying that because I can't believe the braking differences are only due to wheel geometry. Someone would have built a quick-braking geometry with a big tire wheel. The zippyness wouldn't so obviously go from small tire (mten) -> big tire (Monster and friends). There would be some variation at least, right?

If the 134V Master feels more zippy than the 100V Hero, then I assume the firmware limits (or rather higher power delivery with the same current limits) are what makes the difference. So I'm assuming braking (regeneration) is limited by firmware, too.

Anyways, off topic stuff. I hope Inmotion shows a better braking video soon... with better braking, ideally

[mrelwood]

2 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

The wheel is oscillating around a stable status in reality, which gives wiggle room.

Not really. The wheel must provide the exact amount of acceleration that's required to stay upright, at all times. If it fails to do so, the first thing that happens is that the pedals dip right away.

2 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

I'm saying that because I can't believe the braking differences are only due to wheel geometry.

I can't comment on others' beliefs, only that "braking power" in the electronical sense is missing the mark completely. The V13 could have a 200 000 W continuous controller, but the braking distance wouldn't get a single inch shorter. Unless you are heavy enough to actually overpower the wheel, which is a practical impossibility when braking on the V13.

2 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Someone would have built a quick-braking geometry with a big tire wheel. The zippyness wouldn't so obviously go from small tire (mten) -> big tire (Monster and friends). There would be some variation at least, right?

 You're right, there is! It's called a "riding mode setting". And since different manufacturers have different power curves, there are small differences between wheels regardless of the setting. Pad placement and pedal height (in relation to the axle height) also play a role.

In all these though, they affect the physics of the braking situation, not the electronics, so increasing the max power output wouldn't change matters.

2 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

If the 134V Master feels more zippy than the 100V Hero, then I assume the firmware limits (or rather higher power delivery with the same current limits) are what makes the difference.

It isn't though. Feeling "zippy" is of course a very subjective term, and doesn't describe any specific feature or a measure.

But think about what happens when the wheel limits the power to the motor in any situation. You accelerate fast enough to require 5000 watts of power to keep the wheel upright. If the wheel limits the power and only provides 4800W, the pedals dip, because you are leaning way beyond the axle in a physically unstable position. You can't limit the power without pedals dipping. If you would, overlean crashes couldn't happen at all, could they?

 

2 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

So I'm assuming braking (regeneration) is limited by firmware, too.

The braking shown in the video looks stronger than what regeneration alone could provide, so I'm sure the wheel uses actual accelerating power for the braking as well.