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Kingsong 16X Death wobble crash


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Hello,

Yesterday morning I exprecienced extreme wobbles on my 16X on flat asphalt while not riding that fast.
At around 35km/h I had the first wobble and was able to just barely get out of it and continue riding.
Then, around 100m later I had wobbles again but this time I crashed.

Never had this happen before in my 1000km of ownership. I ride cautious and normally cruise at 35km/h. I'm glad I always have a first aid kit with me, I patched my knee up quickly and rode home to clean it and then did a better job of bandaging.

Someone told me that the 3" tire might be the cause? Thinking of going with another tire anyway so would a 2.75" knobby tire prevent future wobbles?

Spoiler: bloody knee and damaged 16X.

Spoiler

LpQO0DH.jpg

First and second wobble clear to see on my Strava recording:
EzGHEpY.jpg

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I think some of you guys are getting a little bit overly sure of your abilities. Wobble can and does happen to most of us. If you think that its quite simple to avoid and its always easy counter them,

I heard self-oscillating will make you go blind..

After reading this extremely interesting debate, and as a rookie with only about 800kms on an EUC, I think that you all have hit the mark: its all relative to the day's physical condition, syrong/weak

Changing to a 2.75 tire won't solve the wobbly wobbles. A wheel wobbles because its out of balance likely caused by your foot position, body shifting/movements & braking. Trick is to not panic & learn to deal with it. Move your knees back, move your body up, clamp your legs tighter, etc etc. Some says turning helps to settle the wheel. Experiment to see which action reduces or exacerbates it.

Wheel wobbles are part & parcel of riding EUCs but after a while, it'll all become 2nd nature & you'll automatically deal with it. Always remember to not panic & gently slow down & try not to make large abrupt motions.

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Thanks for the tips @Scottie888.

I've dealt with slight wobbles before on this wheel and others but never this extreme.
 

I'll write it up as an "it was early and I was half asleep" moment I guess and try and practice to stop the wobbles when it happens.

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Yes it’s a viscous cycle / synergy of overcompensation, being tired will make you more prone to it. While it can happen to anyone, it mostly irons out with mileage. Like @Scottie888 said, try to relax. You can also break the cycle by shifting weight to one foot or accelerating if there is room for it.

Edited by null
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The one thing that the wider tire does that a narrower one might not do as much is tramlining. I've found that the momentary 'hitch' when the tire decides to follow a crack can start the wobble, so I take care to try to avoid them. For me, slight carving works better for recovery than clenching the wheel. Slowing down for a while is pretty mandatory for me as well.

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I drive the 16x first generation with the H-5167 tire and also had the problem at the beginning.
I agree with everything that the previous speakers say. Keep calm, keep checking your stance and slowly slow down when wobbling.
For me, experimenting with the tire pressure improved. I have 85kg and drive 2.0-2.2 bar. But I'm not a curb jumper ;-)
Meanwhile, after almost 4000 km, I am no longer worried. It is possible that the tire has run in so far that the problem no longer occurs.
Hold on and get well soon.


 

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On 3/16/2021 at 7:32 AM, Scottie888 said:

Changing to a 2.75 tire won't solve the wobbly wobbles. A wheel wobbles because its out of balance likely caused by your foot position, body shifting/movements & braking. Trick is to not panic & learn to deal with it. Move your knees back, move your body up, clamp your legs tighter, etc etc. Some says turning helps to settle the wheel. Experiment to see which action reduces or exacerbates it.

Wheel wobbles are part & parcel of riding EUCs but after a while, it'll all become 2nd nature & you'll automatically deal with it. Always remember to not panic & gently slow down & try not to make large abrupt motions.

For its clearly tightening legs and feet against the wheel and wobble goes away. 

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@ArieKanarie I agree what people write here sometime "dead" wobble happening. Is some combination route leg position and often legs is just tired and muscle stop doing job corectly. I ride over 4 000 km on 16X and 5 000 more on MSP ks16x 16 whell is so nimble is easy to turn acelerate brake is easy make something bad by mistake. MSP is 18 inch and is feel more stable on speed 35+km compare to ks16x.  I recomended use pedal settings HARD you can fix wobble faster(if is fixable) compare to soft or medium.

Every rider can have wobble to crash like @Marty Backe and his fall on MSP becasue he holding long camera stick and some hole on road send him to woble to crash this great rider have many thousands miles on EUCs sometime is just unmanagable situation what happend thisis why we gear up self!

 

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On 3/26/2021 at 9:38 AM, DjPanJan said:

@ArieKanarie Is some combination route leg position and often legs is just tired and muscle stop doing job corectly.

 

I totally agree! I just came back from a week in bed due to an intestinal bug and a lot of dehydration, and the two rides I did were a nightmare. Leg muscles were week and I was wobbling quite a bit. Actually that caused me to fall twice. For me it happens for two reasons: too much relaxation at a given moment or simple muscle fatigue.

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a) if the tire pressure is too high, you will experience oscillations more often ...
b) while decelerating, try to make a quick movement as you do when you sit on a chair ...
c) you are not under the influence of alcohol or drugs that make you too relaxed ...

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All is well, haven't had any wobbles again. As stated before, I will write it up as morning muscle weakness.
In the meantime I've ridden a few mountainbike tracks, those are the best!
Got 4th place worldwide on a popular track via Strava

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Add more gentle carving to you riding style. The constant reversal of momentum helps keep you from slipping into a wobble. Also really think about your feet. Using the front of you feet and the heel to hold the pedals down and out to the ground. Less grabbing the body of the machine and more putting pressure on either side of it. Being early and sleepy could easily be your answer, just got a little light legged and didnt have the foot energy to resolve it. Its definitely more in the feet than people often talk about imo. Weak ankles will wobble

Edited by GoGeorgeGo
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Regardless of skill or mileage anyone can produce higher frequencies of wobbles simply by increasing tire pressure. Even for me or people of greater skill or mileage wobbles are unavoidable if tire pressure is too high.

You want to find tire pressure equilibrium where the pressure is high enough that you maintain maneuverability and increase potential range (by having a smaller point of contact to the road) and not so low that you risk damaging the inner tube or rim.  

Edited by xiiijojjo
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another thing to consider is tire pressure. I had to find the sweet spot, like 22ppi.

also, when I wobble, Igrip the wheel real firm with my legs and dont ever lean back out of fear as it exacerbates the wobble.

be safe,, have fun!

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I've just done my 1st 30km ride with my beloved KS 16X, ending in the rain, and no wobbles. I changed my feet stance several times and not once did the wheel wobble. My average speed was 19km/hour and not once, even under rain, did it misbehave. I have a foot stance where my most comfortable position is where my heel is only about 2cm out of the rear of the pedal. Now, every time  I ride I test the wobble right in the beginning with strong breaking. And still no wobbles. I believe the further to the front are our feet ( and slightly misaligned) the less wobble we get.

But this is just my $0.02... from a guy who's a 61 old fart and  who is only riding for two months now....

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32 minutes ago, Paulo Mesquita said:

I've just done my 1st 30km ride with my beloved KS 16X, ending in the rain, and no wobbles. I changed my feet stance several times and not once did the wheel wobble. My average speed was 19km/hour and not once, even under rain, did it misbehave. I have a foot stance where my most comfortable position is where my heel is only about 2cm out of the rear of the pedal. Now, every time  I ride I test the wobble right in the beginning with strong breaking. And still no wobbles. I believe the further to the front are our feet ( and slightly misaligned) the less wobble we get.

But this is just my $0.02... from a guy who's a 61 old fart and  who is only riding for two months now....

Paulo, Você é uma inspiração! keep up the good work, my man. . . . 

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On 3/28/2021 at 11:19 AM, GoGeorgeGo said:

Add more gentle carving to you riding style. The constant reversal of momentum helps keep you from slipping into a wobble. Also really think about your feet. Using the front of you feet and the heel to hold the pedals down and out to the ground. Less grabbing the body of the machine and more putting pressure on either side of it. Being early and sleepy could easily be your answer, just got a little light legged and didnt have the foot energy to resolve it. Its definitely more in the feet than people often talk about imo. Weak ankles will wobble

YES!!  Learn to carve then carve for the first few minutes of a ride. It makes you one with the wheel and makes a huge difference. 
 

I keep hearing that everyone gets the wobbles. I guess that is technically true. I just could not care less about them. They no longer have any effect on me. The wobbles don’t get worse and they stop as soon as I do just about anything else. I told my wife that , “ I don’t wobble anymore” For the net 3 months all I heard was,” Your wobbling Again!!! “ And she was right. I would wobble for two seconds. I just didn’t notice.

I hope Marty will forgive me .....I am being honest and sincere..... Watching the Marty video makes me cringe. He had forever to do something, anything.  Why didn’t he turn out of it? Why didn’t he carve out of it? Although instinct might tell a person to lean back and slow down to stop the wobbles, it is probably not the best solution. 

I don’t expect beginners to have the needed skill to stop or control a wobble. Carving gives you those skill. 

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3 minutes ago, RockyTop said:

YES!!  Learn to carve then carve for the first few minutes of a ride. It makes you one with the wheel and makes a huge difference. 
 

I keep hearing that everyone gets the wobbles. I guess that is technically true. I just could not care less about them. They no longer have any effect on me. The wobbles don’t get worse and they stop as soon as I do just about anything else. I told my wife that , “ I don’t wobble anymore” For the net 3 months all I heard was,” Your wobbling Again!!! “ And she was right. I would wobble for two seconds. I just didn’t notice.

I hope Marty will forgive me .....I am being honest and sincere..... Watching the Marty video makes me cringe. He had forever to do something, anything.  Why didn’t he turn out of it? Why didn’t he carve out of it? Although instinct might tell a person to lean back and slow down to stop the wobbles, it is probably not the best solution. 

I don’t expect beginners to have the needed skill to stop or control a wobble. Carving gives you those skill. 

Where's the Marty video? 

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47 minutes ago, Paulo Mesquita said:

I've just done my 1st 30km ride with my beloved KS 16X, ending in the rain, and no wobbles. I changed my feet stance several times and not once did the wheel wobble. My average speed was 19km/hour and not once, even under rain, did it misbehave. I have a foot stance where my most comfortable position is where my heel is only about 2cm out of the rear of the pedal. Now, every time  I ride I test the wobble right in the beginning with strong breaking. And still no wobbles. I believe the further to the front are our feet ( and slightly misaligned) the less wobble we get.

But this is just my $0.02... from a guy who's a 61 old fart and  who is only riding for two months now....

 

11 minutes ago, FlightRisk said:

Paulo, Você é uma inspiração! keep up the good work, my man. . . . 

Another thing to consider is having the tire balanced, like you do with your car. my car would wobble around 50-60mph, but not above or below. Got the tires balanced and it was gone. It is unfortunately a difficult process trying to find someone to help with this. you may have to remove the tire yourself, then bring it to a motorcycle shop.

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Tire balancing is important, unfortunately really difficult. not like you can take your wheel into a Midas and have it done like a car. A motorcycle shop wouldnt have a clue how to remove the wheel. I notice when I lift my wheel while still engaged, as it spins it wobbles indicating it's unbalanced. . .  

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I wonder if you removed the wheel for them and just took that in if a motorcycle shop would do it. Probably doesn't matter enough if you're only doing 30mph or thereabouts/less, but I could see maybe starting to worry about such a thing if you're pushing 40+ on a Sherman or Monster or something.

Edited by AtlasP
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3 hours ago, RockyTop said:

Love you Marty, :wub:  

I just saw the Marty crash video, and two things stand out:

1) one can see the wobble building up for a long time. 

2) it feels like his legs were a bit loose. 

Which poses 2 questions in this rookie's brain: did Marty feel the wobble build up? Why didn't Marty tighten his legs onto the EUC body? 

As I mentioned someshere the only times I had wobbles and crashed were when learning on the 1stweek and also right after being sick for 6 days and having very weak legs. 

This is the most important thing I found out about me avoiding wobbles: PLACING MY FEET AS FORWARD AS POSSIBLE ON THE PEDALS, WITH ONE SLIGHTLY MISALIGNED (1CM) FROM THE OTHER. This works like a charm for me on my "Little Beast", the KS 16X.

3 hours ago, RockyTop said:

YES!!  Learn to carve then carve for the first few minutes of a ride. It makes you one with the wheel and makes a huge difference. 
 

I keep hearing that everyone gets the wobbles. I guess that is technically true. I just could not care less about them. They no longer have any effect on me. The wobbles don’t get worse and they stop as soon as I do just about anything else. I told my wife that , “ I don’t wobble anymore” For the net 3 months all I heard was,” Your wobbling Again!!! “ And she was right. I would wobble for two seconds. I just didn’t notice.

I hope Marty will forgive me .....I am being honest and sincere..... Watching the Marty video makes me cringe. He had forever to do something, anything.  Why didn’t he turn out of it? Why didn’t he carve out of it? Although instinct might tell a person to lean back and slow down to stop the wobbles, it is probably not the best solution. 

I don’t expect beginners to have the needed skill to stop or control a wobble. Carving gives you those skill. 

 

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3 hours ago, RockyTop said:

YES!!  Learn to carve then carve for the first few minutes of a ride. It makes you one with the wheel and makes a huge difference. 
 

I keep hearing that everyone gets the wobbles. I guess that is technically true. I just could not care less about them. They no longer have any effect on me. The wobbles don’t get worse and they stop as soon as I do just about anything else. I told my wife that , “ I don’t wobble anymore” For the net 3 months all I heard was,” Your wobbling Again!!! “ And she was right. I would wobble for two seconds. I just didn’t notice.

I hope Marty will forgive me .....I am being honest and sincere..... Watching the Marty video makes me cringe. He had forever to do something, anything.  Why didn’t he turn out of it? Why didn’t he carve out of it? Although instinct might tell a person to lean back and slow down to stop the wobbles, it is probably not the best solution. 

I don’t expect beginners to have the needed skill to stop or control a wobble. Carving gives you those skill. 

Up to fish I wasn't quite sure what exactly was "carving". After I saw the slo-mo videos here, I found out I've been carving all the time for about a month now (and one month into EUC riding). Not as fast as the pros here, but quite nicely. I do it a lot on the middle of the road white paint broken lines. It's a lot of fun and the shorter they are, the more the fun. 

It's actually a great exercise, but you need a rear mirror on the left side of the helmet (UK riders on the right side) to make sure no car is coming up right behind you. 

According to my mood an confidence in that particular day, I carve, putting pressure:

1) on he EUC main body with the opposite leg

2) dancing with my torso and hips 

3) bending the inner curving knee

All these are are quite fun to do and good practice for rookies like me. 

... just my$0.02....

 

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