Kingsong 16X Death wobble crash

[winterwheel]

Here's a photo of my foot position on the EX from this morning's coffee run.

[Paulo Mesquita]

2 hours ago, RockyTop said:

If you are riding with one foot forward and one back. As a learning tool try to accelerate with the forward foot and brake with the rear. Be careful if you haven’t done this before. It can be useful on very long trips or extremely hilly areas. It also teaches either foot to drive rather than a joint effort of both feet. 

I'm going to try it. 

[Paulo Mesquita]

1 hour ago, winterwheel said:

Here's a photo of my foot position on the EX from this morning's coffee run.

That's more or less my maximum misalignment... 

[winterwheel]

33 minutes ago, Paulo Mesquita said:

That's more or less my maximum misalignment... 

Maybe worth noting that on a lighter wheel I wouldn't have my feet as far forward. Still offset, but just with the the whole enterprise moved back a bit.

[.....]

You're still thinking too much. Ride offset, ride evenly, ride to the back, ride to the front... Just move around as needs and comfort depics it. Easy as pie...

[conecones]

For optimal stability and best acceleration/braking, you should be applying even pressure with both feet at the same time and the feet should be at the same position from each other. I'm not convinced the offset stance using one foot as a "brake" and the other as "accelerator" is a proper way to ride. I know the common response is "there is no wrong way to ride, everyone is different, its all preference...yadayada", but here are two examples that highlight some issues:

Assuming right foot forward and left foot back like winterwheel above. The examples below are amplified on smaller/twitchier wheels.

1) Hitting bumps that throw your balance to the forward/left and backward/right will require additional effort to recover vs the opposite corners. This is down to where your feet and the leverage you can generate to recover. Hold a squatting position with feet even. Now stick your right foot forward and lean back - you start falling backwards/right. How do we emergency brake? We do a deep squat and lean back. Yes, we don't stick our foot that forward on the wheel, but uneven feet pressure is a major cause for the common braking wobbles.

2) Turning with leg pressure. Many riders use a quick lean w/ leg pressure to initiate or even hold a turn. Problem here is that with this foot position, turning left will involve steering the wheel from the front using side pressure of your forward right foot (more sensitive) and turning right is using side pressure near the back of the wheel (less sensitive). Sure you can get used to this but I argue it's not the safest. If you are turning left and hit a bump that throws your balance forward/left, you will likely put even more pressure on the right leg and turn even harder as a result and since the front of the wheel is very sensitive to side pressure, this can be bad.

Now the real reason I think many of us ride offset (and a small one at that) is due to having differences in each leg such as leg dominance/strength/preference and leg length (my case). The offset compensates for these differences between both legs but the goal should still be to promote even pressure from both feet. 

If riding offset was truly beneficial, then we should see large feet offsets being a common practice to maximize the so called "benefits", but this is not common at all.

[Rehab1]

On 4/4/2021 at 6:01 PM, Arek Gryglicki said:

Speaking of wobbles...  It definitely helps to not panic. So far so good but can easily imagine wobble situation throwing me out of the wheel and know a colleague wobble crashing 16X  at ~40 km/h

 

Yes panicking is the worst thing you can do! When every muscle in your body tightens up it increases the wobble oscillation.

I found that shifting the CG to my heels and flexing the knees has saved my butt numerous times. 

 

[mrelwood]

2 hours ago, conecones said:

Now the real reason I think many of us ride offset (and a small one at that) is due to having differences in each leg

To me it seems that the offset positioning is instead a decidedly learned and a voluntary trait. Differences in the rider’s legs aren’t. If you haven’t tried the posture, you might not understand the gains it gives on an 18+” wheel (without pads).

 However, to me the issues you mentioned are real, and prevent me from wanting to use such positioning.

 

2 hours ago, conecones said:

If riding offset was truly beneficial, then we should see large feet offsets being a common practice to maximize the so called "benefits", but this is not common at all.

I don’t think commonality is a proper measure of gains on anything really. That’s why habits and common usage forms keep changing, in everything.

[Paulo Mesquita]

5 hours ago, winterwheel said:

Maybe worth noting that on a lighter wheel I wouldn't have my feet as far forward. Still offset, but just with the the whole enterprise moved back a bit.

I do actually have mine that far forward on the KS 16x due to one physical problem: if I put my feet further back I'll have terrible calf pains less than halfway through my rides. This is the only way to keep my calves painless...

[Paulo Mesquita]

4 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

You're still thinking too much. Ride offset, ride evenly, ride to the back, ride to the front... Just move around as needs and comfort depics it. Easy as pie...

Oh I move around a lot when the pain kick in. I've even learned to curl down, while riding in almost fetal position a couple of times during the ride just to relieve my back. And I now move my fee inward, outward, palm up heel up...anything to relax the muscles. 

[winterwheel]

3 hours ago, conecones said:

For optimal stability and best acceleration/braking, you should be applying even pressure with both feet at the same time and the feet should be at the same position from each other. I'm not convinced the offset stance using one foot as a "brake" and the other as "accelerator" is a proper way to ride. I know the common response is "there is no wrong way to ride, everyone is different, its all preference...yadayada", but here are two examples that highlight some issues:

Assuming right foot forward and left foot back like winterwheel above. The examples below are amplified on smaller/twitchier wheels.

1) Hitting bumps that throw your balance to the forward/left and backward/right will require additional effort to recover vs the opposite corners. This is down to where your feet and the leverage you can generate to recover. Hold a squatting position with feet even. Now stick your right foot forward and lean back - you start falling backwards/right. How do we emergency brake? We do a deep squat and lean back. Yes, we don't stick our foot that forward on the wheel, but uneven feet pressure is a major cause for the common braking wobbles.

2) Turning with leg pressure. Many riders use a quick lean w/ leg pressure to initiate or even hold a turn. Problem here is that with this foot position, turning left will involve steering the wheel from the front using side pressure of your forward right foot (more sensitive) and turning right is using side pressure near the back of the wheel (less sensitive). Sure you can get used to this but I argue it's not the safest. If you are turning left and hit a bump that throws your balance forward/left, you will likely put even more pressure on the right leg and turn even harder as a result and since the front of the wheel is very sensitive to side pressure, this can be bad.

Now the real reason I think many of us ride offset (and a small one at that) is due to having differences in each leg such as leg dominance/strength/preference and leg length (my case). The offset compensates for these differences between both legs but the goal should still be to promote even pressure from both feet. 

If riding offset was truly beneficial, then we should see large feet offsets being a common practice to maximize the so called "benefits", but this is not common at all.

I've got over 15,000 kms in on 12 different wheels large and small, in winter and summer, forest and street. Go ahead and theorize that my way of riding is wrong.

[.....]

1 hour ago, winterwheel said:

I've got over 15,000 kms in on 12 different wheels large and small, in winter and summer, forest and street. Go ahead and theorize that my way of riding is wrong.

You are totally doing it wrong. Don't worry, we expect nothing less from you dern Canadians eh?

Edited April 10, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[conecones]

2 hours ago, winterwheel said:

I've got over 15,000 kms in on 12 different wheels large and small, in winter and summer, forest and street. Go ahead and theorize that my way of riding is wrong.

I didn’t mean to imply your method is “wrong”. I wrote not proper, but I actually meant not optimal, so I’m not looking to tell you what you should or shouldn’t do.
Although by your logic, I just need to find someone who has more ride experience than you who has a different opinion to convince you otherwise?

I’m basing my conclusion on just some issues I experienced when experimenting with larger feet offsets and I believe these issues are universal but I also acknowledge they may not matter as much on larger wheels because larger wheels reduce effects of all inputs including suboptimal technique. Like how the average driver in a mustang can power through a race track and get a fast time, but it’s only when they get put in an underpowered miata, do their suboptimal driving techniques become obvious. 

[.....]

I find an offset to be an advantage when needing more 'grip' on the wheel. It could be merely a personal/physical shortcoming, but an offset seems to allow me to grip with a twist, more than a mirrored image. Im also wondering if a slight offset increases our stance stability. Not the wheel stability but our overall stance itslef. FIghters tend to not stand square when readying for attack posture. I'd say its not 'right or wrong' but merely a culmination of how we adapt to each preferred position. A lot of times I will ride offset to enable me to accel thru a turn while allowing me to lean my leg out. One foot and shin on the pads is the 'gas' and the other is the downforce for the turn. Regardless of foot position, my body is definitely in a twist. I'd venture to say that centered OR offset feet is merely a tiny detail and its could be a VERY moot point, as we accomodate both techniques with thousands of other minute adjustments in our ride style. I do ride mirrored as well as offset now. The only reason I bothered to ride mirrored is when I started using p-pads and noticed one shin was used more than the other. Im also quite ocd, so theres always that. IN the end, I found that mirrored and offset, front and back, loose and tight, (thats what she said!) are ALL used, depending on terrain and style. Being able to safely stand in varied positions also helps with fatigue. I'd classify 'optimal' as whatever best gets the job done to the satisfaction of the rider. Optimal for one person is likely not 'optimal' for the next.

@conecones Im not sure your car analogy is effective. You take a poor driver and put them in a high powered car, they will get SHIT laptimes in compare to a good driver in a high powered car. IN fact, a poor driver in a performance car, is more likely to crash it, as their mistakes are amplified greatly. (same basic premise why you  dont hand a newbie a ferrari or a sherman). You put a poor driver in a slow car, and thay may have fast relative lap times, as minor mistakes don't compund as badly and its always a closer finish when turtles are racing... There are a LOT of varied driving styles in professional racing circuits. If we assume that WINNING the race is proof of a drivers 'efficiency', I'd surmise that we'd find wde variances even on the podium.

Edited April 10, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[mrelwood]

1 hour ago, conecones said:

I believe these issues are universal but I also acknowledge they may not matter as much on larger wheels because larger wheels reduce effects of all inputs including suboptimal technique

That explains a lot. If you don’t ride 18” (or larger) wheels, you really can’t assess which riding techniques are good or optimal on them. The difference between for example a 16x2.125 and a 18x3.0 wheel is really really huge. Fast enough of an emergency braking, and sufficient leverage on steep inclines are real issues that the rider must solve in order to be a safe rider.

 An offset foot positioning does just that. It extends the range of input the rider can use.

 To be clear, I don’t use offset foot positioning, as I prefer to have the increased range of unit provided to me  by pads.

[Unventor]

8 hours ago, conecones said:

If riding offset was truly beneficial, then we should see large feet offsets being a common practice to maximize the so called "benefits", but this is not common at all.

When I started to ride I had to be except on my foot stand. Right in line with axel same distance and position of my feet otherwise I would get massive wobbles in minutes. That was a V8.

When I got my KS18L I found having a gas and a break foot stand with one, the dominant leg right in line with the shell and the other more duck feet and wider from the shell have me much better control. Especially the faster I went on the wheel. 

When I got the KS16X with CX tire that was a real start over of learning to control that. I ended up with wide duck feet with the heels touching the shell slightly in sync and they had to be perfect synced. At some point O got a different tire and that made it possible to mix the KS18L and KS16X style a bit. 

With my V10f I have to lead the wheel with the outside turning leg most of the time. I think it is due to being taller that the V8 and also top heavy due to battery position.

But getting the V11 have given me so many more options. It is so stable and predictable that I can also have any stand and not really thing about it. Now when I got the IM hex pedals I need to be mindful on where my feet is to lock into the spikes. But that is pretty much it. Now that I got new jump/control pads it might change a bit. Time will tell. 

But to me as a rider you work out what works for you and it might be not the same every day.

But when truly have become a good rider you can shift fat on demand and depending on what wheel you are on. Very useful when testing a wheel you don't own.

[.....]

1 hour ago, Unventor said:

When I started to ride I had to be except on my foot stand. Right in line with axel same distance and position of my feet otherwise I would get massive wobbles in minutes. That was a V8.

When I got my KS18L I found having a gas and a break foot stand with one, the dominant leg right in line with the shell and the other more duck feet and wider from the shell have me much better control. Especially the faster I went on the wheel. 

When I got the KS16X with CX tire that was a real start over of learning to control that. I ended up with wide duck feet with the heels touching the shell slightly in sync and they had to be perfect synced. At some point O got a different tire and that made it possible to mix the KS18L and KS16X style a bit. 

With my V10f I have to lead the wheel with the outside turning leg most of the time. I think it is due to being taller that the V8 and also top heavy due to battery position.

But getting the V11 have given me so many more options. It is so stable and predictable that I can also have any stand and not really thing about it. Now when I got the IM hex pedals I need to be mindful on where my feet is to lock into the spikes. But that is pretty much it. Now that I got new jump/control pads it might change a bit. Time will tell. 

But to me as a rider you work out what works for you and it might be not the same every day.

But when truly have become a good rider you can shift fat on demand and depending on what wheel you are on. Very useful when testing a wheel you don't own.

Now that you point it out. I do notice that I stand evenly on the mten and mostly evenly on the sherman(with power pads). My 18L(padless) I like the offset. Not only could it be a rider by rider basis, but sounds like its also a per wheel basis. Of course, the larger wheels require me move to the back more when going down steep hills. Its either a weight or torque or cog or all three, type thing.

Edited April 10, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[Paulo Mesquita]

1 hour ago, Unventor said:

But to me as a rider you work out what works for you and it might be not the same every day.

After reading this extremely interesting debate, and as a rookie with only about 800kms on an EUC, I think that you all have hit the mark: its all relative to the day's physical condition, syrong/weak legs, wheel size, whe making, and even pad type. 

I for one, with my short experience, and even shorter with the 11, found out that the foot offset on the 18" wheel of the V11 made easier to work with than with the same offset on the KS 16x.

Even yesterday, when I I did my 30km tour, for some reason I felt it being more important riding with loose legs aqui from the main body, than with any kind of alignment on both feet or gripping the 16x main body with my legs. 

On other days it's the other way around... 

Also being quite OCD, (I knew @ShanesPlanetand I had something in common) I do fiddle around with my feet on the pads trying, on bad ocd days, to make everything sit symmetric... And on good days not caring about it at all 😂😂😂

[conecones]

20 hours ago, mrelwood said:

...

 An offset foot positioning does just that. It extends the range of input the rider can use.

...

I agree 100%. I don’t have enough experience on 18” wheel to give qualified riding input, but from what I see, almost everyone on 18” is using pads. Without pads, I can totally see how the offset would be likely a requirement to brake fast. With pads..I would think the leverage generated by them would make the offset foot position not needed.

Going back to the original spirit of this thread involving wobbles, I firmly believe the best way is to promote even foot pressure during acceleration/braking. Does anyone think otherwise? Offset feet can make this harder unless differences in your foot dominance/leg strength, leg length etc causing uneven pressure  can be mitigated with a small offset - in which case the offset is good. 

Also I’m curious how many of you guys switch between big and small wheels and ride both of them at their limits. Personally after riding 16x3 for a while and going back to 16x2.125 taught me that I have been lazy in my riding technique and line choices and the smaller wheel punished my bad habits immediately and severely.

[.....]

1 hour ago, conecones said:

I agree 100%. I don’t have enough experience on 18” wheel to give qualified riding input, but from what I see, almost everyone on 18” is using pads. Without pads, I can totally see how the offset would be likely a requirement to brake fast. With pads..I would think the leverage generated by them would make the offset foot position not needed.

Going back to the original spirit of this thread involving wobbles, I firmly believe the best way is to promote even foot pressure during acceleration/braking. Does anyone think otherwise? Offset feet can make this harder unless differences in your foot dominance/leg strength, leg length etc causing uneven pressure  can be mitigated with a small offset - in which case the offset is good. 

Also I’m curious how many of you guys switch between big and small wheels and ride both of them at their limits. Personally after riding 16x3 for a while and going back to 16x2.125 taught me that I have been lazy in my riding technique and line choices and the smaller wheel punished my bad habits immediately and severely.

You have pretty much hit the nail on the head.  Even tho I ride at offset on my padless 18 a lot, I probably mitigate it by using my ankles or grip with the legs. The end result could very well be an even distribution of weight for braking and accel. Even as in The ENTIRE wheel. My plates may see variances in pressure, but as a whole, the rest of my body may be counteracting or assisting for an entirely even response.

I can say without a doubt, I use offset technique on the sherman when at high speeds thru turns. It is nearly impossible to have identical weight on the foot plates as I accelerate thru uphill turns. One leg is supplying a LOT of down force pressure with knee out, while the other leg supplies a lot of leverage to maintain the correct lean angle and speed. My ability to gain speed suffers as I have to balance the rider weight between lean over and forward lean. This is typically done outside of the pads. Sometimes I manage to keep the outside leg within the power pads to use in assisting speed, while the inside turn leg merely acts an offset weight to assist lean angle. I treat it similar to how a sport bike encounters a turn. I would also twist pegs/offset feet and use this offet weight technique. Oddly, I've learned that you can throw your arms to the inside of a turn to help (cant do that on a bike).  I shift my feet a LOT, even in padded wheels. SOmetimes I notice a shift in feet in preperation for each turn. Its a minute shift, but its there. Shifting feet AND using pads, also changes leverage angle, as I use pads at only the top of my sherman. I can definitely say that if you have pads mounted offset and dont realize it, its VERY easy to get a VERY uneven ride until you regroup and accomodate it.   The mten doesnt seem to need this practice much at all. My 18L also uses no pads as i find it more than adequate up to its own limits. I will say that braking on a padless 18L is much worse than braking on the sherm with pads. For some reason, I also wobble a little more easily when riding mirrored at speed on the 18L, vs slight offset. My bad hip always prefers being the rear foot as well.

Riding padless requires you grip the wheel. Pads allow you to simply lean on them. I personally think learning on pads is a terrible idea. Learn to ride loose and offset and grip the wheel when needed. THEN, learn to use pads WITH the aforementioned skill. Riding pads from the go, pretty much undermines core strength and forces you to a certain leg position/style. Just my $.10

Edited April 11, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[Curt8892]

On 4/2/2021 at 2:07 PM, FlightRisk said:

 

Another thing to consider is having the tire balanced, like you do with your car. my car would wobble around 50-60mph, but not above or below. Got the tires balanced and it was gone. It is unfortunately a difficult process trying to find someone to help with this. you may have to remove the tire yourself, then bring it to a motorcycle shop.

Would this require a fix? I am new and have been wobbling all day and night. I have been able to control it and have been playing around with my stances. So far the best for me has been a little duck with heels holding the wheel. It allow wheel to move freely (and when wobble happened I relax and place pressure on one side of the wheel). I remember getting wobbles on my motorcycle and the last thing you do is try and control if by squeezing. 
 

Oops, I cannot post video of my wheel. The wheel is shimming side to side about 5 mm. What do you think. Thank you. 
 

ps. When I say new, I mean less than   300km and only 90 km on my new S18. So I do not know what is acceptable for a wheel in regards to balance. 
 

 

[mrelwood]

4 hours ago, Curt8892 said:

Oops, I cannot post video of my wheel. The wheel is shimming side to side about 5 mm.

You can always up the video to YouTube and paste the link (and press enter) to embed it into your post.

5mm sounds like a lot. Reseating the tire should help: Deflate, massage to center, add .2-.5 bars, center, and repeat until you can’t move the tire by hand. Pump up to riding pressure to check the result. Repeat if necessary.

Edited April 14, 2021 by mrelwood

[Curt8892]

Sounds good, I will try that fix. 
 

Thanks mrelwood

[Curt8892]

22 hours ago, Curt8892 said:

Sounds good, I will try that fix. 
 

Thanks mrelwood

 

Did not work. Will be bring it in for service today.

[Rich Sam]

On the topic of wobbles and my observations.  Tire pressure greatly affects wobbles.  I just got the itch to start learning small jumps, tire bumping up curbs, small drops etc.  So I upped my tire pressure from 35PSI to 40 PSI to protect my rim from damage.  40 PSI is much more agile feeling, but also more likely to wobble.  I don't get that concerned because when I feel it come on I just initiate a carve and its gone.  At 35 PSI I really never really had significant wobble issues, its amazing how much of a difference 5 PSI can make.

If you're uncomfortable with wobbles and you're getting them frequently you may want to consider lowering the pressure of your tire.

Zombie riding up a hill is more likely to introduce a wobble for me at higher pressures.  If I carve, even a slight carve I do not get wobbles.