Fire History

[RagingGrandpa]

1 hour ago, Markus752 said:

My Ninebot S2

MG1 cells. 

2 hours ago, Markus752 said:

I saw one red and one green light
The wheel was working and I used it
Then I put it in charge
smelled burning
[moved it outdoors]

Glad you recognized the strange behavior and paid attention, good job!

[360rumors]

Fire - the badly burned one seems to be an RS19. There also seems to be an 18XL in the background.  https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/kids-sent-home-after-electric-unicycle-fire-federal-way-elementary-school/LHIM3ZDZFZBCPLCFSFOGVTBLPU/?outputType=amp

[0000]

On 5/26/2023 at 1:40 AM, 360rumors said:

Fire - the badly burned one seems to be an RS19. There also seems to be an 18XL in the background.  https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/kids-sent-home-after-electric-unicycle-fire-federal-way-elementary-school/LHIM3ZDZFZBCPLCFSFOGVTBLPU/?outputType=amp

Setting fire to an elementary school with kids in the building, yeah... not a good look for EUCs in the 253.

More specifically, not a good look for Begode for continuing to fail to recall their already-known and dangerously underspec'd wheels that sold with the LG M50T battery cells. I mean, I could be wrong speculating about the cause of the fire, but it seems a fair assumption given the content of this thread alone. You think more people working in the industry would be pissed and pressuring Begode to recall, even their competitors, especially if they care about protecting the continuation of future sales of these devices as many of these devices with the M50Ts are proving to be ticking time bombs as time goes by.

The lack of a legislative response to date is interesting in it's own right - just reinforces the notion that products designed and originating from China enjoy a kind of broad legal immunity protection blanket. Will it last? Hu knows.

Edited May 27, 2023 by Vanturion
careful what you wish for

[gon2fast]

I would like to know why these wheels were at an elementary school to begin with.  

[0000]

You know, I was thinking more on this afer typing up the above - the way our legal system is set up in the states, I wonder if one reason a company would not voluntarily perform a recall or even publicly acknowledge a problem is that it would be a legal admission of fault opening them up for damages (property or even loss of life) making it far easier to prosecute them into financial oblivion. If that is the case, it'd be impossible to "do the right thing" as doing that would a kind of self-initiated suicide. I don't know, food for thought I guess.

One thing I do know, is I'd be decomissioning and replacing my M50T packs ASAP if I owned a wheel with them. Definitely not worth the risk. In fact, I kind of question if I should be worried about my 50E cells as the packs age over time. All this makes me think it would've been smarter to go with a lower internal resistant cell like the 40T just for a little more piece of mind. Whenever I see the updates on this thread, it never fails to stoke the paranoia a little bit when storing my wheel indoors.

[0000]

16 minutes ago, gon2fast said:

I would like to know why these wheels were at an elementary school to begin with.  

Assumed it was a staff member commuting, although it looked like the firemen were set up right inside one of the main entrances. Maybe the rider was able to drag/kick or push it that far before having to run away. All speculation though.

Looks like the wheel had mods for seated riding and healthy application of questionably protective baby foam so the rider could even be a forum member. Since public property damage is involved the details might not be forthcoming for legal reasons.

Edited May 26, 2023 by Vanturion

[Robse]

5 hours ago, 360rumors said:

Fire - the badly burned one seems to be an RS19. There also seems to be an 18XL in the background.  https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/kids-sent-home-after-electric-unicycle-fire-federal-way-elementary-school/LHIM3ZDZFZBCPLCFSFOGVTBLPU/?outputType=amp

from video

[Mono]

22 hours ago, earthtwin said:

Dude, did you have to let it burn like that? There is a fire extinguisher right outside my door. Your story really scared me so now I have a plan on what I will do if my wheel caught on fire. Thank you for sharing your story.

IIRC, fire extinguishers have little to no effect on battery fires. IICR, the principle of extinguishers is to prevent air oxygen to sustain the fire, but battery fires do not need air oxygen, to all I know.

The appliance of choice for battery fires is apparently (cold) water because the fire is caused by a runaway heat reaction.

Edited May 26, 2023 by Mono

[360rumors]

8 hours ago, Vanturion said:

You know, I was thinking more on this afer typing up the above - the way our legal system is set up in the states, I wonder if one reason a company would not voluntarily perform a recall or even publicly acknowledge a problem is that it would be a legal admission of fault opening them up for damages (property or even loss of life) making it far easier to prosecute them into financial oblivion. If that is the case, it'd be impossible to "do the right thing" as doing that would a kind of self-initiated suicide. I don't know, food for thought I guess.

One thing I do know, is I'd be decomissioning and replacing my M50T packs ASAP if I owned a wheel with them. Definitely not worth the risk. In fact, I kind of question if I should be worried about my 50E cells as the packs age over time. All this makes me think it would've been smarter to go with a lower internal resistant cell like the 40T just for a little more piece of mind. Whenever I see the updates on this thread, it never fails to stoke the paranoia a little bit when storing my wheel indoors.

When a company discovers a defect in their product, they can initiate a voluntary recall. This helps minimize their exposure to litigation.

In this case, euc manufacturers don’t have assets in the US, so they are not afraid of liability because any judgment against them would be difficult to collect (it is doubtful that Chinese courts would allow them to be enforced against assets in China). Begode said customers should just replace their batteries every year (!!!)

The ones who have most exposure are distributors.  Ewheels did the right thing with a product recall, offering free replacement of LG batteries for their customers at a cost of over a million dollars.

So far no other distributor has offered to do what ewheels did. That’s why I try to support ewheels when I can.

[Asphalt]

This school fire is the type of event that will cause insurance companies to jack up rates for buildings that permit PEVs.

As a result we're going to see more buildings ban PEVs.

[0000]

4 hours ago, 360rumors said:

Begode said customers should just replace their batteries every year (!!!)

LOL I forgot about that ridiculous CYA-esque "solution". Well, I don't mind rehashing this conversation every once in a while as this thread updates over time since it gives new members the chance to become aware of a dangerous situation if they bought or are looking to buy a used wheel and don't know about this risk using the 900mah M50T packs. Because the reality is:

 

4 hours ago, 360rumors said:

So far no other distributor has offered to do what ewheels did. That’s why I try to support ewheels when I can.

+1! Also worth remembering they took a massive hit around the same time with the warehouse fire so even more reason to support them for doing the right thing.

[360rumors]

4 hours ago, Asphalt said:

This school fire is the type of event that will cause insurance companies to jack up rates for buildings that permit PEVs.

As a result we're going to see more buildings ban PEVs.

Uhuh and unfortunately they probably won’t make distinctions for battery safety. So even if we are riding an euc with a LiFePO4 and advanced BMS, it would probably still be included in any ban. 😢

[MetricUSA]

Once again the only thing one can do is have a fire blanket nearby to cover lithium fire from spreading!!! Sprinkle water on to blanket to keep it cool.... BUY YOURSELF A FIRE BLANKET... I bought two 1 m x 1 m  fire blankets for $16.... 

Edited May 30, 2023 by MetricUSA

[mike_bike_kite]

Begode could sell replacement 900Wh packs at cost and obviously using safe batteries. That way it would minimise litigation, it would allow owners of their products to protect themselves without costing them much. This would counter the negative publicity. I love my Nikola Plus but, the way things stand, I couldn't advise others to buy a Begode wheel.

[on one]

One out of every 10 million lithium-ion batteries fails, a condition that almost always leads to a fire, Ms. Hutchison said. According to The New York Times https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/14/us/lithium-ion-ebike-battery-fires.html

If we follow precautions and proper ownership procedures I feel that the risk is quite low. Compared to, for example, electrical fires or gasoline fires, or fireplace fires. I have seen quite a few opinions here that seem like an over reaction.

[chanman]

22 minutes ago, earthtwin said:

One out of every 10 million lithium-ion batteries fails

We aren't talking about cell defects from the factory where this number comes in and is unavoidable, we're seeing much higher rates than this because of abuse of packs and potential negligence from manufacturers that is systemic.

[Rollin-on-1]

16 minutes ago, earthtwin said:

One out of every 10 million lithium-ion batteries fails, a condition that almost always leads to a fire, Ms. Hutchison said. According to The New York Times https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/14/us/lithium-ion-ebike-battery-fires.html

If we follow precautions and proper ownership procedures I feel that the risk is quite low. Compared to, for example, electrical fires or gasoline fires, or fireplace fires. I have seen quite a few opinions here that seem like an over reaction.

How many if those 10 million batteries are the ones bought in mass for things like power tools etc.  As I understand it, the batteries that make it into EUCs are the seconds that did not make the cut for premium manufacturers that are meeting quality standards.  

Then, consider how many of those seconds are not well suited to the discharge and recharge demands of our EUCs.  Operating a lithium ion battery outside its design specs can reduce battery life and can cause permanent damage.  Add FW that doesn't limit discharge amperage at low SoC and you compound the problem.  

I agree with you, that lithium batteries themselves are not something to have an irrational fear of.  However, 900wh  LGM50T packs in certain generations of Begode wheels pose a much higher than 1 in 10million chance of fire.  If that subset were to be exained, I am quite certain that the numbers would be closer to 1:5000 or 1:10000.  I would love to see a thorough analysis published 

[Zrex90]

In a 6p configuration you have 144 cells, then the 1 for 10 Millions becomes 1 for 69 444. The more cells you have the more chance of having defect comes into the equation. If it was true why a begode RS in 4p configuration has much more defect than a 6p EXN. Then comes the way of how the cell is used in the respect of the datasheet.

[alcatraz]

Yeah, an EX.N with M50T cells has fewer failures.

Any LiIon cell can catch fire like the M50T if you stress it enough.

Having 50E cells doesn't eliminate the risk. It reduces it, possibly by a smaller amount that people think. But it's enough to avoid catastrophic events.

The question remains. If a low current cell like M50T fails after an average of 2 years, the 50E (with slightly more current) could perhaps fail after 4-5 years. We really don't know for sure becwuse we haven't tested them for a long time yet. 

[mrelwood]

On 5/21/2023 at 4:02 PM, techyiam said:

The Inmotion V11 does use the LG M50T cell.

Inmotion switched to Samsung cells for the V11 about 6 months after it’s launch in 2020:

Don’t know whether they ever changed back though.

 But the V11 fire you quoted from was yet another embarrassing example of user negligence. If any product throws “all kinds of errors for all morning” and has “charging issues”, it should be pretty obvious to any layman that keeping to try to charge and operate the product really is not a smart thing to do. I guess someone had to test if the battery warnings and protections are 100% fool proof.

[360rumors]

same incident: Video of the fire showing the RS

https://www.facebook.com/reel/709633927832332?fs=e&s=TIeQ9V&mibextid=0NULKw

[GothamMike]

Begode, nuff said.

I'd like to work with schools and Fire Depts to ensure school kids are not put at risk.  Nobody is training PEV riders to responsibly charge their rides.

*use a smart charger, or use a electric timer.  Too many plug it in and go to bed.

*Charge your PEV away from flammable stuff in a garage or non occupied space.

Edited May 29, 2023 by GothamMike

[RagingGrandpa]

On 2/13/2022 at 3:47 PM, RagingGrandpa said:

please let's discuss preparedness in our existing topics for fire safety, and not in this recordkeeping thread.

 

[mrelwood]

Calculations of probabilities and odds were moved to it’s own topic (under Off-topic discussions):

 

[upL8N8]

On 5/26/2023 at 3:53 PM, Asphalt said:

This school fire is the type of event that will cause insurance companies to jack up rates for buildings that permit PEVs.

As a result we're going to see more buildings ban PEVs.

Schools should get with the times and install assigned metal lockers for small PEVs or detachable e-bike batteries in designated ventilated rooms away from anything that can burn.  Spread the lockers out so if one battery goes up, it won't damage or set off neighboring PEVs/batteries.  Lockers won't stop smoke from escaping, and won't put out a fire, but it'll help contain the fire while also keeping expensive PEV / batteries secured against theft.  Otherwise, students / faculty are just gonna wheel their EUCs in, or throw their detachable batteries in their backpacks or lockers.

Students / faculty can pay to rent one for the year... helping to pay for the costs. What's a small steel cabinet cost?  $400 new?  Charge $50-$100 to lease one for the year.

Add some security cameras for good measure.

Edited June 2, 2023 by upL8N8